Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[ClementofA]

I directly quoted Matt's position. Does he not write that repentance is not required for salvation? Yes a Calvinist does say that regeneration leads to faith and repentance but that is not what Matt wrote as he wrote that repentance is not required as he considers that as works-based which is why I consider him to be a false-teacher extraordinaire.

Matt's alleged self contradictions don't concern me. I posted the link to that page - in response to your question if i believe in "Lordship salvation" - to point out that there are different definitions. What is your definition of "Lordship salvation"?

"...there are variations on what Lordship salvation really is":
What is Lordship salvation and is it biblical? | CARM.org

20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
It doesn't mention the gospel?? Then what does it mention or refer to? What did Paul preach, if not the gospel. Your claim is weak because you base it on an argument of silence. If you claim that it is not the gospel message that Paul was referring to in this verse, then what was it he was preaching? It surely looks like the gospel message to me which requires repentance (change of mind), turning to God instead of self/flesh, and repentance by deeds (works that demonstrate one's repentance),

The Greek word there does not mean "preached" but "declared". Any Christian should declare what Paul says in Acts 26:20, as do many Jews, Muslims, etc. Are those Jews & Muslims preaching the Christian gospel when they do so? Paul declares many things that are not the gospel. The verse doesn't tell us what the gospel is or how to be saved. If that's your claim the burden of proof is on you to prove it, which you have not done. If the verse declares the gospel & how to be saved, then it would be a salvation & gospel absent of anything to do with Jesus Christ. Furthermore the verse doesn't tell us what "repent and turn to God" means or make "and do works meet for repentance" a secondary condition required for salvation that if not meet after being saved will cause the salvation obtained to be lost. Your original comment on this verse said:

If someone believes, and fails or refuses to turn from his sins, does Matt really believe that his faith has saved him?? Do you believe that? Instead of reading this false teacher why don't you read what Paul stated about the gospel that he himself preached in Acts 26:20. It does not say what Matt says it is."

A. Correct
B. Correct

You commit the same mistake that countless other Christians argue for when you attempt to quantify works and imagine a standard. How much is enough you and they ask? It is not quantity but the QUALITY of one's life. Is one's life marked by general holiness and the pursuit of sanctification? Does one live according to the flesh or live according to the Spirit (Rom 8:13)? Does one love the brethren (1 Jn 3:14)? Do we practice righteousness (1 Jn 3:7,10)? The scriptures give general markers by which we can measure ourselves in our walk, which are qualitative in nature - not quantitative. And of course God knows our hearts. Whatever is in our hearts will be manifested through our actions. Our actions HELP US - NOT God to JUDGE OURSELVES. "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person." Matt 15:18-19

Earlier you said "works are the outward evidence o[f] inward faith." Now you seem to be speaking of works as a number of inward things. There appears to be little if any difference between your descriptions of "works" and inward justification, even though you described "works" justification as "the outward evidence o[f] inward faith".

If God has justified us by faith & can see faith in our hearts, does He need a second method of "works" justification to determine if we are justified? Yes or no?

Does the quality of those works have to be 100% pure for Him to justify us? Or will a purity level of 90% or 50% or 25% justify us by our works?

At what percentage does a person lose their "inward" salvation & make the Holy Spirit depart from a person?

Is a person newly saved by grace through faith - at this moment you are reading this - in need of doing some outward works to save him or is he saved already?

Do you agree with Jason0047 that a single sin can cause loss of salvation? Does a Christian lose "eternal life" every time he hates(=murders=loss of eternal life, 1 Jn.3:15) or desires to(or commits the act of)adultery, Mt.5:27-29, etc? Does the Holy Spirit leave when such a sin is committed & return again immediately after it is confessed? Even multiple times within a single day?

Did you neglect to read v.10? Weren't we created to do GOOD WORKS? But good works are bad because it's works-based salvation (sarcasm).

The book of Romans consistently refers to WORKS OF THE LAW. As you know following the Law cannot save. You fail to distinguish between works of the law which is condemned and works done out of obedience to the Word and leading of the Holy Spirit which are never condemned but instead commended.

Again, you fail to distinguish that Paul is referring to the works done according to the Law.

Are not works of law, e.g. obeying the 10 commandments, works of righteousness? Paul says it is not by works of righteousness, (whether the law of Moses or any other righteous standard) one is saved or justified:

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

2 Tim.1:9a He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done

Works are one of the evidences of salvation, but works don't save us.

Are we justified by faith (Romans) or by works (James)? | CARM.org

"James 2:22 is addressing a worldly way to show our faith to others who watch us operate as a church. We know this because he says "Pure religion is…to visit the fatherless and widowed,"(James 1:27). The Apostle Paul is explaining faith as God sees it...[OTOH, as re James:]

"24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only [a false faith],"

"...James is saying that a person with dead faith will walk by the hungry because he or she is not really saved. When a Christian feeds the hungry, that is how he or she shows others that he has a real faith. On the other hand, the Apostle Paul says that Abraham was not justified by his works because his works do not justify him "before God," (Romans 4:2). This is a true faith that God sees apart from works."

"...True faith will be enough for God. However, to the church, faith is revealed in our efforts. Thus, there is no contradiction between the book of James and the book of Romans." What about Faith vs. Works? | CARM.org

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet, God knew they would do so--and Jonah, being a prophet, had realized it immediately himself.

We do a lot in real time, such as eat, and God provides for real-time needs.

Yet, God knows our end, and regardless how twisty the road to that end, God always knew it all along, before creation.

So those that to our temporal viewpoint will be saved are saved from God's extemporal viewpoint.

The point here is that they were headed for destruction. That threat was very real. If it was not real, then it was just a useless scare tactic. Judgment was coming for them, but it was averted, not just at the point they cried out to God (Repentance), but it was at the point they had forsaken their evil ways (The Fruits of Repentance).
Most like to say, we should battle against sin, but they do not actually believe in actually forsaking sin for good. A repentance that is not followed by a change of life is a false repentance. They are not really sorry. It would be like a man who cheats on his wife and he says that he is sorry to her and yet he doesn't stop in his unfaithfulness. Is the man really sorry in this case? No.

 

[MDC]

God's grace is sufficient to save a sinner of his past sin who has a Godly sorrow and is seeking forgiveness with God... yes. But God's grace is not a license for immorality or to cover willful rebellion done against God because God would have to agree with a person's thinking that they can sin and still be saved. Can God agree with sin? Surely not. So there goes your belief down the tubes.

If one comes to Christ in Godly sorrow and repentance, it’s evident that this sinner seeks deliverance from sin by Gods grace. Your contradiction that one seeks deliverance from sin in Christ and sorrows over it, then uses that as a license to sin makes no sense. You do not understand salvation then. The fruit of a believer is faith and a repentant heart. This is the new nature and perseveres yo the end by Gods grace and power. All you are saying is that Christ and His merits aren’t sufficient to save apart from mans good works. Another wards you are saying Gods grace isn’t sufficient to save in and of itself apart from mans cooperation. Just say you don’t. This is your whole faithless message Jason

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Matt's alleged self contradictions don't concern me. I posted the link to that page - in response to your question if i believe in "Lordship salvation" - to point out that there are different definitions. What is your definition of "Lordship salvation"?

"...there are variations on what Lordship salvation really is":
What is Lordship salvation and is it biblical? | CARM.org



The Greek word there does not mean "preached" but "declared". Any Christian should declare what Paul says in Acts 26:20, as do many Jews, Muslims, etc. Are those Jews & Muslims preaching the Christian gospel when they do so? Paul declares many things that are not the gospel. The verse doesn't tell us what the gospel is or how to be saved. If that's your claim the burden of proof is on you to prove it, which you have not done. If the verse declares the gospel & how to be saved, then it would be a salvation & gospel absent of anything to do with Jesus Christ. Furthermore the verse doesn't tell us what "repent and turn to God" means or make "and do works meet for repentance" a secondary condition required for salvation that if not meet after being saved will cause the salvation obtained to be lost. Your original comment on this verse said:





Earlier you said "works are the outward evidence o[f] inward faith." Now you seem to be speaking of works as a number of inward things. There appears to be little if any difference between your descriptions of "works" and inward justification, even though you described "works" justification as "the outward evidence o[f] inward faith".

If God has justified us by faith & can see faith in our hearts, does He need a second method of "works" justification to determine if we are justified? Yes or no?

Does the quality of those works have to be 100% pure for Him to justify us? Or will a purity level of 90% or 50% or 25% justify us by our works?

At what percentage does a person lose their "inward" salvation & make the Holy Spirit depart from a person?

Is a person newly saved by grace through faith - at this moment you are reading this - in need of doing some outward works to save him or is he saved already?

Do you agree with Jason0047 that a single sin can cause loss of salvation? Does a Christian lose "eternal life" every time he hates(=murders=loss of eternal life, 1 Jn.3:15) or desires to(or commits the act of)adultery, Mt.5:27-29, etc? Does the Holy Spirit leave when such a sin is committed & return again immediately after it is confessed? Even multiple times within a single day?



Are not works of law, e.g. obeying the 10 commandments, works of righteousness? Paul says it is not by works of righteousness, (whether the law of Moses or any other righteous standard) one is saved or justified:

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

2 Tim.1:9a He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done

Works are one of the evidences of salvation, but works don't save us.

Are we justified by faith (Romans) or by works (James)? | CARM.org

"James 2:22 is addressing a worldly way to show our faith to others who watch us operate as a church. We know this because he says "Pure religion is…to visit the fatherless and widowed,"(James 1:27). The Apostle Paul is explaining faith as God sees it...24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only [a false faith],"

"...James is saying that a person with dead faith will walk by the hungry because he or she is not really saved. When a Christian feeds the hungry, that is how he or she shows others that he has a real faith. On the other hand, the Apostle Paul says that Abraham was not justified by his works because his works do not justify him "before God," (Romans 4:2). This is a true faith that God sees apart from works."

"...True faith will be enough for God. However, to the church, faith is revealed in our efforts. Thus, there is no contradiction between the book of James and the book of Romans." What about Faith vs. Works? | CARM.org

Matt Slick believes future sin is forgiven him. He believes you are saved solely by having a belief alone in Jesus and His sacrifice. He believes that any kind of obedience as a part of salvation (Which naturally follows God's saving grace) equates with a person falling from God's grace. He thinks any form of obedience to be saved is heresy. He is putting up a smoke screen when he talks about Lordship Salvation. Lordship Salvation to him is something that is a part of some kind of regeneration. But He does not believe in walking uprightly. He actually believes you can commit grievous sin and still be saved because he says future sin is paid for. That means if he accidentally lies, or lusts after a woman, he is not condemned but he is saved by God's grace by his belief in Jesus. He did not lose his salvation. Where is Lordship Salvation in this case for him? It doesn't exist. It is a smoke screen and is simply not true for him. Matt also believes Jesus worshiped the Father. That is just downright wrong on so many levels.

Matt does not believe it is possible to fall away or lose your salvation. So this means that if a Calvinist sins, they are saved in those sins. Again, where is Lordship Salvation in this case? Do they have to be totally vile and super wicked to not meet the requirements of Lordship Salvation? Just one grievous sin is enough to separate a person from God. It happened with Adam and Eve.

What if they go prodigal for a time? Were they never saved to begin with? I am sure the person who went prodigal and came back would not think that. Were they saved when they were in their many sins while prodigal? What about their living for the Lord before that point?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If one comes to Christ in Godly sorrow and repentance, it’s evident that this sinner seeks deliverance from sin by Gods grace. Your contradiction that one seeks deliverance from sin in Christ and sorrows over it, then uses that as a license to sin makes no sense. You do not understand salvation then. The fruit of a believer is faith and a repentant heart. This is the new nature and perseveres yo the end by Gods grace and power. All you are saying is that Christ and His merits aren’t sufficient to save apart from mans good works. Another wards you are saying Gods grace isn’t sufficient to save in and of itself apart from mans cooperation. Just say you don’t. This is your whole faithless message Jason

Sorry. I don't believe you. You think future sin is forgiven you. So when you sin, you are automatically forgiven. There is no need to confess or repent because you are already saved and or forgiven. But David sought after the Lord to be forgiven. David desired for his salvation back. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. How can you be forgiven of sins if they were all paid for by Jesus? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense with your belief.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If one comes to Christ in Godly sorrow and repentance, it’s evident that this sinner seeks deliverance from sin by Gods grace. Your contradiction that one seeks deliverance from sin in Christ and sorrows over it, then uses that as a license to sin makes no sense. You do not understand salvation then. The fruit of a believer is faith and a repentant heart. This is the new nature and perseveres yo the end by Gods grace and power. All you are saying is that Christ and His merits aren’t sufficient to save apart from mans good works. Another wards you are saying Gods grace isn’t sufficient to save in and of itself apart from mans cooperation. Just say you don’t. This is your whole faithless message Jason

For if you tell a person that King David was saved in his adultery and murder, they can easily think they can be like a King David and do those things and be saved, too. See the problem?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Matt's alleged self contradictions don't concern me. I posted the link to that page - in response to your question if i believe in "Lordship salvation" - to point out that there are different definitions. What is your definition of "Lordship salvation"?

"...there are variations on what Lordship salvation really is":
What is Lordship salvation and is it biblical? | CARM.org



The Greek word there does not mean "preached" but "declared". Any Christian should declare what Paul says in Acts 26:20, as do many Jews, Muslims, etc. Are those Jews & Muslims preaching the Christian gospel when they do so? Paul declares many things that are not the gospel. The verse doesn't tell us what the gospel is or how to be saved. If that's your claim the burden of proof is on you to prove it, which you have not done. If the verse declares the gospel & how to be saved, then it would be a salvation & gospel absent of anything to do with Jesus Christ. Furthermore the verse doesn't tell us what "repent and turn to God" means or make "and do works meet for repentance" a secondary condition required for salvation that if not meet after being saved will cause the salvation obtained to be lost. Your original comment on this verse said:





Earlier you said "works are the outward evidence o[f] inward faith." Now you seem to be speaking of works as a number of inward things. There appears to be little if any difference between your descriptions of "works" and inward justification, even though you described "works" justification as "the outward evidence o[f] inward faith".

If God has justified us by faith & can see faith in our hearts, does He need a second method of "works" justification to determine if we are justified? Yes or no?

Does the quality of those works have to be 100% pure for Him to justify us? Or will a purity level of 90% or 50% or 25% justify us by our works?

At what percentage does a person lose their "inward" salvation & make the Holy Spirit depart from a person?

Is a person newly saved by grace through faith - at this moment you are reading this - in need of doing some outward works to save him or is he saved already?

Do you agree with Jason0047 that a single sin can cause loss of salvation? Does a Christian lose "eternal life" every time he hates(=murders=loss of eternal life, 1 Jn.3:15) or desires to(or commits the act of)adultery, Mt.5:27-29, etc? Does the Holy Spirit leave when such a sin is committed & return again immediately after it is confessed? Even multiple times within a single day?



Are not works of law, e.g. obeying the 10 commandments, works of righteousness? Paul says it is not by works of righteousness, (whether the law of Moses or any other righteous standard) one is saved or justified:

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

2 Tim.1:9a He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done

Works are one of the evidences of salvation, but works don't save us.

Are we justified by faith (Romans) or by works (James)? | CARM.org

"James 2:22 is addressing a worldly way to show our faith to others who watch us operate as a church. We know this because he says "Pure religion is…to visit the fatherless and widowed,"(James 1:27). The Apostle Paul is explaining faith as God sees it...[OTOH, as re James:]

"24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only [a false faith],"

"...James is saying that a person with dead faith will walk by the hungry because he or she is not really saved. When a Christian feeds the hungry, that is how he or she shows others that he has a real faith. On the other hand, the Apostle Paul says that Abraham was not justified by his works because his works do not justify him "before God," (Romans 4:2). This is a true faith that God sees apart from works."

"...True faith will be enough for God. However, to the church, faith is revealed in our efforts. Thus, there is no contradiction between the book of James and the book of Romans." What about Faith vs. Works? | CARM.org

Matt Slick believes it is a Theological trap to answer the question of this thread. No doubt because it exposes what he really believes.

 

[MDC]

Sorry. I don't believe you. You think future sin is forgiven you. So when you sin, you are automatically forgiven. There is no need to confess or repent because you are already saved and or forgiven. But David sought after the Lord to be forgiven. David desired for his salvation back. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. How can you be forgiven of sins if they were all paid for by Jesus? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense with your belief.

Lol future sin! Just say flat out Jason one must work for his salvation. Your message nullifies everything Christ did to save His people from their sin. Only the self righteous boast in this faithless message

 

[ClementofA]

Nowhere does God say that He likes us even when we are in sin.

God did far more than "like" us in sin, He "loved" us:

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[RDKirk]

Sorry. I don't believe you. You think future sin is forgiven you. So when you sin, you are automatically forgiven. There is no need to confess or repent because you are already saved and or forgiven. But David sought after the Lord to be forgiven. David desired for his salvation back. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. How can you be forgiven of sins if they were all paid for by Jesus? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense with your belief.

You seem to be saying that believers wander in and out of salvation on a minute-by-minute basis.

Or at least between repentances. What happens if a tower falls on you immediately after you've sinned? What happens with the sins you don't even realize you've committed and don't realize you have to repent for?

There there another thread where the question is asked whether a person can go five seconds without sin. What was your original response to that question?

 

[ClementofA]

Matt Slick believes it is a Theological trap to answer the question of this thread.

Why do you say that?

 

[SkyWriting]

7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Galatians 6:7-8).
Jesus does like people. But his friends are those who do whatsoever they He commands of them.For Jesus says,"You are my friends, if you do whatsoever I command you." (John 15:14).Are you Jesus's friend by keeping His commandments?

That's only for me to judge.

Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

James 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Romans 14:1-13
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

John 8:7
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Matthew 7:1-2
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Proverbs 31:9
Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What one particular sin do you find to be the most disgusting and most heinous?

Ket not unwholesome words come out of your mouth. I won’t dirty you mind nor mine by describing them.

Are there no such sins?
Can a person bow down to an idol once and be saved?
Jesus says you shall worship the Lord your God only and Him only you shall serve.

What about a person hurting an innocent child?
Is that not bad enough?

What if there one sin was worshiping the beast?
Is that not bad enough?

What do you think happened with Adam and Eve involving their one time sin?

Again, those who really walk with God know He is patient waiting and wanting all to come to repentance. And we do not describe in detail the deeds men do that God hates. Actually, we hate them too.

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

 

[SkyWriting]

If you are not in those shoes, you do not know if it is desperation or they just tell themselves it is. Anyway, since this is not what is common in the world, we needs not talk about it. The sins that people do that they ignore because they like doing them are what needs to be seen. There are lots of these. Others see the real motive clearly.

Is that what you used to think?

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

Isaiah 11:3
And He will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what His eyes see, and He will not decide by what His ears hear,

John 8:15
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.

2 Corinthians 10:7
You are looking at outward appearances. If anyone is confident that he belongs to Christ, he should remind himself that we belong to Christ just as much as he does.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You seem to think that just because somebody falls into spiritual death over one grievous sin, they are forever condemned. This is not the case. If they are still alive, this is an indication that they still have time to repent. That is the mercy. That is the grace. But to suggest otherwise and say that a believer can do a horrible act of evil and be saved while doing so is just mind boggling to me. Not only does it violate Scripture in numerous places, but it violates basic morality.

Can you honestly not think of one horrible sin that can separate a person from God? What about speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost? That is just one sin and that can NEVER be forgiven. You seem to think grievous sin is not all that big of a deal with God because you relate it to a person in a race stumbling. Again, you were so offended by my words that talk about the sins of David that you had to erase it. How do you think God feels about sin then? He is so much more holy and righteous and good. Again, how do you get around the problem of God agreeing with your plan of salvation that makes for an allowance for a temporary amount of sin or evil? Would not God have to agree with sin in order to make this kind of thinking on sin work? Can God agree with sin or evil as long? Does time spent on the crime really change things (morally speaking)?

There are those who change grace to a license to sin. They talk
lightly if the sun they do without any thought to others who suffer under their sin. These do not know God, do not walk with Him, donor hear his voice, do not know that sweet fellowship but are “in this” to avoid hell. For them, sin is no big deal unless they are the victim of someone else’s sin.

Those who walk with God, know his fellowship and presence, and to them sin is a very big deal, not the sin others do but their own. This is because sin separates them from that fellowship until they repent. This is very real. There are sins I will not do or I lose his fellowship. This is how I see it.

He does not immediately condemn me or anyone else to hell crossing out the name as though he has no patience whatsoever.

Your view of Him is too narrow. He is bigger than that.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Is that what you used to think?

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

I do.

Isaiah 11:3
And He will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what His eyes see, and He will not decide by what His ears hear,

I do.

John 8:15
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.

I don’t

2 Corinthians 10:7
You are looking at outward appearances. If anyone is confident that he belongs to Christ, he should remind himself that we belong to Christ just as much as he does.

Those who come to Jesus saying Lord lord thought they belong to Christ Jesus too. What will he do? Judge them.

 

[Oldmantook]

Matt's alleged self contradictions don't concern me. I posted the link to that page - in response to your question if i believe in "Lordship salvation" - to point out that there are different definitions. What is your definition of "Lordship salvation"?

Frankly, I don't see how you can complicate such a simple gospel message. Nevertheless, my definition of the gospel of "lordship salvation" which is the term you use, is that a genuine believer must BOTH believe (Jn 3:16) and obey Heb 5:9). One cannot believe without also obeying, which is why Jesus should be the LORD of our lives. It is quite hypocritical of a believer to call Jesus Lord but not obey his commands/teachings. Jesus is the Lord of our lives; we are not the Lord of our lives.

The Greek word there does not mean "preached" but "declared". Any Christian should declare what Paul says in Acts 26:20, as do many Jews, Muslims, etc. Are those Jews & Muslims preaching the Christian gospel when they do so? Paul declares many things that are not the gospel. The verse doesn't tell us what the gospel is or how to be saved. If that's your claim the burden of proof is on you to prove it, which you have not done. If the verse declares the gospel & how to be saved, then it would be a salvation & gospel absent of anything to do with Jesus Christ. Furthermore the verse doesn't tell us what "repent and turn to God" means or make "and do works meet for repentance" a secondary condition required for salvation that if not meet after being saved will cause the salvation obtained to be lost. Your original comment on this verse said:

You are quite mistaken. I have not heard of any Jews or Muslims who declare the gospel. Why would they declare something that is antithetical to their closely held beliefs? The Greek word for "preached" in that verse is apēngeilen which can mean preached, declared, announced, proclaimed, etc. Anyone of those words can be associated with spreading the good news of the gospel so I think your argument is quite weak. I can preach the gosple as well as declare the gospel. Smells the same to me and makes no difference so you are grasping at straws. For example in Lk 7:22 we find: Then he answered, them, “Go and tell (apangeilate | ἀπαγγείλατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) John what you have seen and heard: the blind see, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have good news brought to them." The same word is used in this verse to "tell" the "good news" which IS THE GOSPEL.

Earlier you said "works are the outward evidence o[f] inward faith." Now you seem to be speaking of works as a number of inward things. There appears to be little if any difference between your descriptions of "works" and inward justification, even though you described "works" justification as "the outward evidence o[f] inward faith".

Do you possess cognitive faith only? Of course works are the outward evidence of what's happenning inside our hearts. A changed and sanctified heart will result in outward changes in a person. An unchanged and hardened heart will not result in any outward changes. This is not rocket-science.

If God has justified us by faith & can see faith in our hearts, does He need a second method of "works" justification to determine if we are justified? Yes or no?

Did I not write that God does not need anything? Why would he? Doesn't he already know everything about us? Our works help us to determine whether we are in the faith or not. Again, not rocket science.

Does the quality of those works have to be 100% pure for Him to justify us? Or will a purity level of 90% or 50% or 25% justify us by our works?

Did you not read what I wrote? Reread what I wrote about quantity vs. quality.

At what percentage does a person lose their "inward" salvation & make the Holy Spirit depart from a person?[/QUOTE]
And why do you surmise percentage when the Bible specifies no such standard?? Do you PRACTICE sin? Do you PRACTICE righteousness? I suggest you stick with the biblical guidelines.

Is a person newly saved by grace through faith - at this moment you are reading this - in need of doing some outward works to save him or is he saved already?

Of course he is saved. Whether he remains saved or not, is measured by his obedience and continued belief.

Do you agree with Jason0047 that a single sin can cause loss of salvation? Does a Christian lose "eternal life" every time he hates(=murders=loss of eternal life, 1 Jn.3:15) or desires to(or commits the act of)adultery, Mt.5:27-29, etc? Does the Holy Spirit leave when such a sin is committed & return again immediately after it is confessed? Even multiple times within a single day?

Can't get off the quantitative bandwagon can you? Did Annanias/Saphirrra perish because of a single sin? If you take the mark of the beast, will you perish? So of course, single sins separate from us from God. God in his sovereignty then judges and imposes his penalty - sometimes even death - so why take the chance? However, throughout Scripture we also know that God is patient and long-suffering. I suggest you read 1 John. 1 Jn 1:7 stated IF we walk in the light - when we sin, Jesus' blood cleanses us of sin. No such assurance is give to believers who instead to choose to walk in darkness. Walking in the light and walking in darkness are QUALITATIVE MEASURES of our lives - not quantitative measures. May I suggest you jump off the quantitative bandwagon.

Are not works of law, e.g. obeying the 10 commandments, works of righteousness? Paul says it is not by works of righteousness, (whether the law of Moses or any other righteous standard) one is saved or justified:

Obeying the moral law is still require correct? Of course they are works of righteousness but not done in our own strength or our own righteousness. They are works of righteousness made possible by our obedience to God, enabled by his grace and not in our own strength. Big difference.

2 Tim.1:9a He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done

Works are one of the evidences of salvation, but works don't save us.

Isn't that what I already wrote? You fail to distinguish between works of our own righteousness/flesh/strength which do not save and grace-enabled works of our obedience to God which do save.

"...True faith will be enough for God. However, to the church, faith is revealed in our efforts. Thus, there is no contradiction between the book of James and the book of Romans."

I agree; never said they were different as Scripture cannot contradict itself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Oh please. Stop it. God is not fooled.
If your intentions are good, then "sin", as people want to claim, is not a sin.
Stop whining. Whining is not a sin. You are a whiner, but your intentions are good.

Oh man are you judging me and big time. This is what I mean by people fooling themselves as to their innocence regarding sin. You give a list of scriptures warning not to judge and yet you allow yourself the right to pronounce me (judging) a whiner. When you call people nasty names you ARE judging and in your heart of hearts you know this cause you just wrote it out.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

So I really fail to see how you cannot see this plain fact in your Bible.

I see the facts of the Bible, and I know them well, but it is good to learn the intent of Scripture and not live by the letter as you are suggesting 2 Corinthians 3:6.

The Question "if" makes the suggestion hypothetical but not untrue. It becomes hypothesis because it never happened.

David was on a downward path and God went to extra lengths to stop this [finally sending his prophet] and he [God] was victorious, showing that it was God's intent to save David. Since God was so intent on saving David it is hard for me to believe that he wasn't already saved but he needed David to do his part for Ezekiel 18 makes it clear that there is no escape without repentance under God's law.

So while the letter says he is not saved the Spirit says he is saved because I have no intention of losing him.

As it is written, "Whom The Lord loves he rebukes and chastens." See Hebrews 12:6.

There is your conundrum and it makes it unhelpful to hypothesise things that never happened as we may cast doubt and fear on the unlearned that is unnecessary.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

We are aware of what happened later. That is not the point. The point here is whether or not he was saved while committing those sins.

See my reply above.

Now put this in your Christian experience.

Yes, you are correct, we cannot willfully continue in sin [excusing ourselves] and be saved. It is not so in the Kingdom of God or the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

However we live by the Spirit and not by the Law. If one is taken in a fault we seek to correct them

God has given us the ministry of reconciliation and not of judgement.

Your question poses judgement to be passed yet grace was given.

Think. God had every reason to judge David when he committed adultery, yet he didn't.

David further offended God when he tried to cover up his sin [in due course] yet God still acts mercifully, why?

David then commits murder. Three times he has offended God and broken the Law, yet God still chooses to send a prophet to give him another chance.

Sounds to me like God always intended for David to experience his grace and therefore he was saved.

You, on the other hand want to show him no mercy while mercy was being extended to him.

Friend, who made you the judge?

1 John 1:9 shows this mercy is available to us today.

Go with the conundrum and you will understand God better.