Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[Dorothy Mae]

How so? Calvinists believe God chooses some to be unsaved and others to be saved. So this takes away any responsibility on your end. You have nobody to blame for anything but God then. But God is not the direct author of evil. God is holy and good and there is no darkness in God. God created free will creatures who have the capacity to do either good or bad.

What you will find in calvinists are two kinds that develops over time. One is the kind hearted who throw up their hands and give up their minds and admit they don’t understand free will and God sovereignty choosing regardless of man’s free choice and God is nevertheless kind and just or those who say God does it and it doesn’t matter if he is kind or cruel by doing so as long as they are predestined for heaven. They don’t put it that way but that is what it boils down to. 1. God ignores free will and we don’t understand but is good or 2. God ignores free will and we can’t do anything about it. Both assume they are predestined and neither loves God or they wouldn’t accept a theology that slanders his character.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If a coast guard rescues a man lost at sea and he had to tell the man to grab the life preserver, so that he could bring him in close to the boast to save him, I highly doubt that the man who was rescued would boast about himself to others in how he grabbed the life preserver and it was all himself saving the day with no mention of his coast guard rescuer. That wouldn't be normal and people would just look at him weird or they would think he was nuts.

I’ve used that example many times. OSASers grab all kinds of straw man arguments.

 

[Oldmantook]

It depends as "there are variations on what Lordship salvation really is": What is Lordship salvation and is it biblical? | CARM.org

I don't agree entirely with this page:
What is lordship salvation?

Matt Slice teaches falsely regarding this. He states: If lordship salvation is meant to say that a person must believe the gospel and also repent of sin in order to be saved, then it is teaching that salvation is not by faith alone in Christ alone. Instead, it would be by faith and also the act of turning from sin as a person makes Jesus Lord of "all" of his life. In other words, salvation is obtained by faith in God and turning from sin--which amounts to keeping the Law."
That is a bunch of baloney. If someone believes, and fails or refuses to turn from his sins, does Matt really believe that his faith has saved him?? Do you believe that? Instead of reading this false teacher why don't you read what Paul stated about the gospel that he himself preached in Acts 26:20. It does not say what Matt says it is.

What are "works"? Peoples thoughts, choices, actions? Works are one of the evidences of salvation, not a means to earning it. The 7 churches in Revelation 2 & 3 had various issues, including having left their "first love" (2:4), evil doctrines (2:14-15), being "dead" (3:1) & "lukewarm" (3:16).

So your point is? I already wrote that works are the outward evidence or inward faith.

Are we justified by faith (Romans) or by works (James)? | CARM.org

You posit a false dilemma. It is both. I already wrote that it is two sides of the same coin.

Christian faith is not antinomianism. Authentic salvation is by grace through faith as gifts of God & results in a changed life:

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

1 Cor.6:9Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

A changed life indeed. No changed life may mean one was never saved in the first place or that one has lost one's salvation as a result of no changed life and no repentance. That is why we are commanded to EXAMINE ourselves.

 

[ClementofA]

Romans 9:19-23.

Lists of verses supporting free will:

Biblical proof of free will

"5 ARGUMENTS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF FREE WILL":

5 Arguments For The Existence Of Free Will

"What is the biblical basis for free will?":

What is the biblical basis for free will?

"freewill as taught in scripture":

Freewill as Taught in Scripture

 

[ClementofA]

Matt Slice teaches falsely regarding this. He states: If lordship salvation is meant to say that a person must believe the gospel and also repent of sin in order to be saved, then it is teaching that salvation is not by faith alone in Christ alone. Instead, it would be by faith and also the act of turning from sin as a person makes Jesus Lord of "all" of his life. In other words, salvation is obtained by faith in God and turning from sin--which amounts to keeping the Law."
That is a bunch of baloney. If someone believes, and fails or refuses to turn from his sins, does Matt really believe that his faith has saved him?? Do you believe that?

To answer your 2 questions:

(1) No, Matt's position, as a Calvinist, is that regeneration leads to faith & repentance.

(2) And my view is that one who is willfully sinning (Heb.10:26-29) is not saved.

Instead of reading this false teacher why don't you read what Paul stated about the gospel that he himself preached in Acts 26:20. It does not say what Matt says it is.

This verse doesn't mention the gospel Paul preached or Christ at all or Him as the only Way of salvation or tell people how they are saved as regards grace, faith & works:

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

The following passages, however, do speak to the topic:

Eph.2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

1 Cor.15:1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance a : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

1 Cor.6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

So your point is? I already wrote that works are the outward evidence or inward faith.

You posit a false dilemma. It is both. I already wrote that it is two sides of the same coin.

You state:

A. "works are the outward evidence or inward faith." I assume you mean "of inward faith".

B. "It is both", i.e. justification is by faith and by works.

How does works justify us if it is merely the evidence of inward faith? Do works justify us before God, or before man? Why would we need God to justify us based on outward works when He can see our hearts inward faith & know it is real without considering anything outward which is superficial? Does God not look on the heart & its motives? Surely God can see if Christ is in a person's heart without observing a person's works. And how good would the works have to be for God to justify a person based on works? 100% perfect? 90%? 50%? How would He measure if they are up to His standard, if such a standard exists?

Also, if justification is by works, then what is Paul saying in passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9 above and:

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. (Rom. 4:5).

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. (Rom.11:6)

 

[SkyWriting]

Not so sure that people are as innocent as you seem to think. The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. It lies to the person and that is pretty obvious if you talk to some people. Telling yourself you do not know it is sin does not matter to God who knows what your heart really knows.

Even men are no foiled by, “I didn’t know it was wrong to take her car parked at the mall. It is my favorite color and so I believed it wasn’t wrong to take it.” Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. Why do think God is so easily fooled?

I don't. God see's the heart and the intent. If the person accidently takes the wrong shopping cart and walks away (I've done this) then it is no longer a sin.

If a prostitute has chosen such a way of life out of desperation, or very commonly they are a sex slave for evil people, then they are not sinning, even as a prostitute. If you kill somebody who is threatening your family.....suddenly your pre-planned murder is not a sin.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't. God see's the heart and the intent. If the person accidently takes the wrong shopping cart and walks away (I've done this) then it is no longer a sin.

If a prostitute has chosen such a way of life out of desperation, or very commonly they are a sex slave for evil people, then they are not sinning, even as a prostitute. If you kill somebody who is threatening your family.....suddenly your pre-planned murder is not a sin.

The are always exceptions to the rule(s), and God like to make examples of these exceptions and/or exceptional cases all the time... Maybe to throw us all into derision trying to figure it out, IDK...?

So, you can't say "always this" and/or and "never that" ect, in "ANY CASE" (or example, situation, circumstance, ect), "any case" ("race" nowadays) (nationality, "whatever") "any case" where "you" might "judge that" whatsoever, even with sin sometimes... Cause that's not how God judges...

God Bless!

 

[Oldmantook]

To answer your 2 questions:

(1) No, Matt's position, as a Calvinist, is that regeneration leads to faith & repentance.

(2) And my view is that one who is willfully sinning (Heb.10:26-29) is not saved.

I directly quoted Matt's position. Does he not write that repentance is not required for salvation? Yes a Calvinist does say that regeneration leads to faith and repentance but that is not what Matt wrote as he wrote that repentance is not required as he considers that as works-based which is why I consider him to be a false-teacher extraordinaire.

This verse doesn't mention the gospel Paul preached or Christ at all or Him as the only Way of salvation or tell people how they are saved as regards grace, faith & works:

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
It doesn't mention the gospel?? Then what does it mention or refer to? What did Paul preach, if not the gospel. Your claim is weak because you base it on an argument of silence. If you claim that it is not the gospel message that Paul was referring to in this verse, then what was it he was preaching? It surely looks like the gospel message to me which requires repentance (change of mind), turning to God instead of self/flesh, and repentance by deeds (works that demonstrate one's repentance),

A. "works are the outward evidence or inward faith." I assume you mean "of inward faith".

B. "It is both", i.e. justification is by faith and by works.

A. Correct
B. Correct

How does works justify us if it is merely the evidence of inward faith? Do works justify us before God, or before man? Why would we need to God to justify us based on outward works when He can see our hearts inward faith & know it is real without considering anything outward which is superficial? Does God not look on the heart & its motives? Surely God can see if Christ is in a person's heart without observing a person's works. And how good would the works have to be for God to justify a person based on works? 100% perfect? 90%? 50%? How would He measure if they are up to His standard, if such a standard exists?

You commit the same mistake that countless other Christians argue for when you attempt to quantify works and imagine a standard. How much is enough you and they ask? It is not quantity but the QUALITY of one's life. Is one's life marked by general holiness and the pursuit of sanctification? Does one live according to the flesh or live according to the Spirit (Rom 8:13)? Does one love the brethren (1 Jn 3:14)? Do we practice righteousness (1 Jn 3:7,10)? The scriptures give general markers by which we can measure ourselves in our walk, which are qualitative in nature - not quantitative. And of course God knows our hearts. Whatever is in our hearts will be manifested through our actions. Our actions HELP US - NOT God to JUDGE OURSELVES. "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person." Matt 15:18-19

Also, if justification is by works, then what is Paul saying in passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9 above and:

Did you neglect to read v.10? Weren't we created to do GOOD WORKS? But good works are bad because it's works-based salvation (sarcasm).

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. (Rom. 4:5).

The book of Romans consistently refers to WORKS OF THE LAW. As you know following the Law cannot save. You fail to distinguish between works of the law which is condemned and works done out of obedience to the Word and leading of the Holy Spirit which are never condemned but instead commended.

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. (Rom.11:6)

Again, you fail to distinguish that Paul is referring to the works done according to the Law.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What you will find in calvinists are two kinds that develops over time. One is the kind hearted who throw up their hands and give up their minds and admit they don’t understand free will and God sovereignty choosing regardless of man’s free choice and God is nevertheless kind and just or those who say God does it and it doesn’t matter if he is kind or cruel by doing so as long as they are predestined for heaven. They don’t put it that way but that is what it boils down to. 1. God ignores free will and we don’t understand but is good or 2. God ignores free will and we can’t do anything about it. Both assume they are predestined and neither loves God or they wouldn’t accept a theology that slanders his character.

I have talked online with Calvinists and non-Calvinist OSAS folk for about 7 years now. I have only encountered one Calvinist in person and they were friendly and nice. But most of my conversations online with them has been less than nice, though (Especially in the beginning). Their belief is totally illogical and I agree that their belief attacks the good character of God. It's also a belief that makes a person to think they do not have to take any responsibility for anything. God does what He does (according to them).

For example: Someone I knew growing up used to think everyone else had a problem and they would blame everyone else for everything and yet they would not look at themselves when it would come to their own problems. This is kind of how I see Calvinism. No need to own up to anything. They think, its all God's doing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I’ve used that example many times. OSASers grab all kinds of straw man arguments.

Non-Calvinistic OSAS is kind of like a post version of Calvinism. They think once you make that decision for Christ, God is going to force you to be a certain way to do good. So they say. But they really don't believe that because they will also say they can commit grievous sin and still be saved and that nobody can stop sinning in this life. This thread proves that. For they believe King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder (Which is a violation of basic morality). God cannot reward anyone with good (His Kingdom) if they justify evil. It doesn't work like that. God would have to agree with their thinking on this if it was true. But God cannot agree with sin. God is holy and just and righteous.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Try re-reading 1 John 1:7. You have to “walk in the light” in order for the blood to cleanse you of all sin. Loving your brother is waking in the light (1 John 2:9-10). One of the ways to love your neighbor (brother) is also the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law (See Romans 13:8-10). This is why we also see John mention that if a person says they know the Lord and they don’t keep his commandments, they are a liar and the truth (Jesus) is not in them (See 1 John 2:4).

My relationship with God is always perfect, as the shed blood of Jesus cleansed all of my sin debt and paid it in full, but my fellowship with Him is dependent upon whether I walk in light and have sins confessed or not!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Bottom line, sin is to be avoided at all costs. John desires that believers not sin, but points out that they can & what to do about it if they do:

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you might not sin. And if anyone should sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One. 2 And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.

David shows to us the Biblical truth that while sin is indeed very bad and destructive in its effects, the grace of our God is greater still!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Non-Calvinistic OSAS is kind of like a post version of Calvinism. They think once you make that decision for Christ, God is going to force you to be a certain way to do good. So they say. But they really don't believe that because they will also say they can commit grievous sin and still be saved and that nobody can stop sinning in this life. This thread proves that. For they believe King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder (Which is a violation of basic morality). God cannot reward anyone with good (His Kingdom) if they justify evil. It doesn't work like that. God would have to agree with their thinking on this if it was true. But God cannot agree with sin. God is holy and just and righteous.

The blood and death of jesus upon calavry paid for my sin dent to God in full, so I should not look to sin, but will still sin, and His blood keeps on continually cleansing and forgiving me!
God is the one who saved us, and He will keep forever His own...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My relationship with God is always perfect, as the shed blood of Jesus cleansed all of my sin debt and paid it in full, but my fellowship with Him is dependent upon whether I walk in light and have sins confessed or not!

We cannot make our faith separate from the Bible. 1 John 1:7 is clear in what it says. For an additional testimony in what it says, Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. Is one obeying as a part of life? 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Is one walking to be cleansed of all sin? 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 5:9 are saying the same thing basically. This is why OSAS is false. OSAS tells a person they can have best of both worlds. But Jesus says a person cannot serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other.

Jesus essentially says that we need to repent or we will perish (Luke 13:3). To repent is to seek forgiveness with God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The blood and death of jesus upon calavry paid for my sin dent to God in full, so I should not look to sin, but will still sin, and His blood keeps on continually cleansing and forgiving me!
God is the one who saved us, and He will keep forever His own...

No actual Bible verse or passage says this. When you read passages in the Bible about how Jesus paid for all sins, it is either in reference to past sin or it is in reference to how Jesus died for the sins of the entire world so as to offer man the free gift of salvation by faith. Jesus only pays for ALL past sins if we exercise true faith in Jesus. A true faith in Jesus has works of faith and it does not justify sin.

Here is Biblical Proof that only PAST sin (and not future sin) is forgiven you:

2 Peter 1:9,
1 John 1:9,
Hebrews 10:26,
Proverbs 28:13,
Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11,
Acts of the Apostles 8:22,
1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
To see how illogical your belief is: Ask yourself,

"Why do I have to confess sin to be forgiven of sin as per 1 John 1:9 if future sin is forgiven me?"

Please read 1 John 1:9.

 

[Oldmantook]

No actual Bible verse or passage says this. When you read passages in the Bible about how Jesus paid for all sins, it is either in reference to past sin or it is in reference to how Jesus died for the sins of the entire world so as to offer man the free gift of salvation by faith. Jesus only pays for ALL past sins if we exercise true faith in Jesus. A true faith in Jesus has works of faith and it does not justify sin.

Here is Biblical Proof that only PAST sin (and not future sin) is forgiven you:

2 Peter 1:9,
1 John 1:9,
Hebrews 10:26,
Proverbs 28:13,
Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11,
Acts of the Apostles 8:22,
1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
To see how illogical your belief is: Ask yourself,

"Why do I have to confess sin to be forgiven of sin as per 1 John 1:9 if future sin is forgiven me?"

Please read 1 John 1:9.

It is amazing to me what we as Christians have been falsely taught. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised though as I formerly believed in eternal security as I thought that God automatically forgives our past, present and future sins. Here's a good one to add to your list that contradicts my previously held false belief from Rom 3:24-25
"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;" (NASB)

When we were justified and redeemed, the propitiation of Jesus' blood was applied to our former/past sins previously committed. This does not include our present or future sins that we have not yet repented of.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Non-Calvinistic OSAS is kind of like a post version of Calvinism. They think once you make that decision for Christ, God is going to force you to be a certain way to do good. So they say. But they really don't believe that because they will also say they can commit grievous sin and still be saved and that nobody can stop sinning in this life. This thread proves that. For they believe King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder (Which is a violation of basic morality). God cannot reward anyone with good (His Kingdom) if they justify evil. It doesn't work like that. God would have to agree with their thinking on this if it was true. But God cannot agree with sin. God is holy and just and righteous.

That is why I say that they throw out their mind. They have to do so to believe in their secure doctrine. I have run into this just as you describe above. Those statments they make are mutually exclusive but still they tell themselves they believe them.

The thread assumes something that is not true, that is God immediately damns a man. It is like watching the Triathelon and seeing a man stumble briefly and asking the crowd at that moment if he lost the whole competition. The normal person would say it is not over yet and the question you ask demands an answer. My answer is the life was not over at that point and so it cannot be answered.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't. God see's the heart and the intent. If the person accidently takes the wrong shopping cart and walks away (I've done this) then it is no longer a sin.

If they tell themselvses they "accidentally" took the wrong handbag and kept it, it is. If they tell themselvses they are telling Mary something "for her own good" that is very negative about her spouse, they are lying to themselves and it is a sin. I can name lots and lots of these. Anyone outside sees clearly that the person is lying to themselves. How does one take the wrong shopping cart and not return it when they notice their groceries are not in it? How is this done innocently?

If a prostitute has chosen such a way of life out of desperation, or very commonly they are a sex slave for evil people, then they are not sinning, even as a prostitute. If you kill somebody who is threatening your family.....suddenly your pre-planned murder is not a sin.

If you are not in those shoes, you do not know if it is desperation or they just tell themselves it is. Anyway, since this is not what is common in the world, we needs not talk about it. The sins that people do that they ignore because they like doing them are what needs to be seen. There are lots of these. Others see the real motive clearly. The self does not and does not want to. God sees it as not innocent because those who pretend they do not know it is wrong cannot fool God.

 

[YeshuaFan]

We cannot make our faith separate from the Bible. 1 John 1:7 is clear in what it says. For an additional testimony in what it says, Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. Is one obeying as a part of life? 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Is one walking to be cleansed of all sin? 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 5:9 are saying the same thing basically. This is why OSAS is false. OSAS tells a person they can have best of both worlds. But Jesus says a person cannot serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other.

Jesus essentially says that we need to repent or we will perish (Luke 13:3). To repent is to seek forgiveness with God.

We obey Jesus NOT to either get or to be kept saved, but as the evidence that we are indeed now saved, and when we still sin, as all of us will do, he is faithful to forgive and cleanse from that sin when we confess it to Him!

 

[YeshuaFan]

No actual Bible verse or passage says this. When you read passages in the Bible about how Jesus paid for all sins, it is either in reference to past sin or it is in reference to how Jesus died for the sins of the entire world so as to offer man the free gift of salvation by faith. Jesus only pays for ALL past sins if we exercise true faith in Jesus. A true faith in Jesus has works of faith and it does not justify sin.

Here is Biblical Proof that only PAST sin (and not future sin) is forgiven you:

2 Peter 1:9,
1 John 1:9,
Hebrews 10:26,
Proverbs 28:13,
Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11,
Acts of the Apostles 8:22,
1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
To see how illogical your belief is: Ask yourself,

"Why do I have to confess sin to be forgiven of sin as per 1 John 1:9 if future sin is forgiven me?"

Please read 1 John 1:9.

God does not put us on probabation, in order to see if we are found worthy to keep and merit salvation, as he freely forgives us of all sins ever to commit against Him, due to the blood of jesus shed for us, as he died in our place on Calvary and bore the full wrath of God that we deserved!