Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[ClementofA]

Of course, I agree with lordship salvation. Don't you?

It depends as "there are variations on what Lordship salvation really is": What is Lordship salvation and is it biblical? | CARM.org

I don't agree entirely with this page:
What is lordship salvation?

Works done in our own flesh/strength don't save us. Works done in our own righteousness don't save us. However obedience to God is never condemned in the OT or NT. Why do you think Jesus harshly judges the 7 churches in Revelation by their works, or lack thereof?

What are "works"? Peoples thoughts, choices, actions? Works are one of the evidences of salvation, not a means to earning it. The 7 churches in Revelation 2 & 3 had various issues, including having left their "first love" (2:4), evil doctrines (2:14-15), being "dead" (3:1) & "lukewarm" (3:16).

Why did James write that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (Js 2:24).

Are we justified by faith (Romans) or by works (James)? | CARM.org

Why did the gospel that Paul himself preached state that we must demonstrate our repentance by our works (Acts 26:20). Works are the outward evidence of inward faith. No works = dead faith (Js 2:17). Faith and works go hand-in hand as you cannot have one without the other like two sides of the same coin.

Christian faith is not antinomianism. Authentic salvation is by grace through faith as gifts of God & results in a changed life:

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

1 Cor.6:9Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[ClementofA]

If one attributes anything in man towards his salvation, then that person has shown to be without true repentance. Salvation is monergistic Jason. To attribute man with cooperating in salvation is to nullify the cross of Christ. You deny unconditional election. Which equals denial of grace altogether in salvation. It is why your message is man centered and an arrogant boast in self righteousness

If that were true, then men have no libertarian free will & are like puppets. They would not be responsible for their sins. God would be. God would also be responsible for sending anyone to endless torments, if such a thing had ever entered His mind or heart of love.

Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say "I love you" to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say "I love you" from her own libertarian free will?


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https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Self righteous folk seek to establish their own righteousness. And refuse to submit to the righteousness of Christ alone as their sole foundation for justification. Self righteous folk cannot smell the stench of their own sinful dead and wretched self to humbly cry out out for mercy and to be found in Christ and His righteousness alone. But yet they boast in their righteous deeds as if they’ve merited Gods favor somehow. Boasting in ones works only reveals one thing, a lack of repentance

Wow, anytime anyone sets out to love God with all their being they are being "self-righteous" to you. That is not the goal, the goal is to love GOd, but I suspect those who do not want to have to love God prefer to call those who set out to do so nasty names to protect their conscience which is likely pricked.

It is also clear that they very likely have no teasures in Heaven and hate the idea that someone else does. Treasures in heaven are those acts of obedience to the Holy Spirit that one has done, particularly the costly and difficult ones done out of pure trust in his word. If one has none of these, then the best defense is to call those who do "boasting in their righteous deeds" so that one never has to have any of these presents to God.

Such will arrive in Heaven poor, blind and naked.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If that were true, then men have no libertarian free will & are like puppets. They would not be responsible for their sins. God would be. God would also be responsible for sending anyone to endless torments, if such a thing had ever entered His mind or heart of love.

Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say "I love you" to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say "I love you" from her own libertarian free will?

Wow. I think this is one of those rare once in a blue moon moments where we agree.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God does not judge by appearances, as man does, but looks into the heart and judges by intention and purpose. Not by appearances. What is in a persons heart determines when they are acting in sin. We all know this. Innocent crimes are not counted against people.

Not so sure that people are as innocent as you seem to think. The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. It lies to the person and that is pretty obvious if you talk to some people. Telling yourself you do not know it is sin does not matter to God who knows what your heart really knows.

Even men are no foiled by, “I didn’t know it was wrong to take her car parked at the mall. It is my favorite color and so I believed it wasn’t wrong to take it.” Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. Why do think God is so easily fooled?

 

[MDC]

If that were true, then men have no libertarian free will & are like puppets. They would not be responsible for their sins. God would be. God would also be responsible for sending anyone to endless torments, if such a thing had ever entered His mind or heart of love.

Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say "I love you" to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say "I love you" from her own libertarian free will?


----------------------------------------


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Men do not have a libertarian free will. All creation, including man, operates within the confines of Gods Sovereignty. Sorry to put you in your place but we creatures are nothing but mere clay in the hands of the Potter. Romans 9. And yes you are definitely responsible for your sin whether you like it or not. And your arrogant rant proves nothing but foolishness. Mans will does not operate outside Gods Sovereignty nor is it independent from Gods Sovereign Will. You are terribly deceived. Free will theology is nothing more than that great lie Satan told Eve, “ ye shall be as gods”.. Genesis 3. Isaiah 46:9-11.

 

[MDC]

Wow, anytime anyone sets out to love God with all their being they are being "self-righteous" to you. That is not the goal, the goal is to love GOd, but I suspect those who do not want to have to love God prefer to call those who set out to do so nasty names to protect their conscience which is likely pricked.

It is also clear that they very likely have no teasures in Heaven and hate the idea that someone else does. Treasures in heaven are those acts of obedience to the Holy Spirit that one has done, particularly the costly and difficult ones done out of pure trust in his word. If one has none of these, then the best defense is to call those who do "boasting in their righteous deeds" so that one never has to have any of these presents to God.

Such will arrive in Heaven poor, blind and naked.

I’m sure the Judaizers thought the same

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If one attributes anything in man towards his salvation, then that person has shown to be without true repentance. Salvation is monergistic Jason. To attribute man with cooperating in salvation is to nullify the cross of Christ. You deny unconditional election. Which equals denial of grace altogether in salvation. It is why your message is man centered and an arrogant boast in self righteousness

If a coast guard rescues a man lost at sea and he had to tell the man to grab the life preserver, so that he could bring him in close to the boast to save him, I highly doubt that the man who was rescued would boast about himself to others in how he grabbed the life preserver and it was all himself saving the day with no mention of his coast guard rescuer. That wouldn't be normal and people would just look at him weird or they would think he was nuts.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Men do not have a libertarian free will. All creation, including man, operates within the confines of Gods Sovereignty. Sorry to put you in your place but we creatures are nothing but mere clay in the hands of the Potter. Romans 9. And yes you are definitely responsible for your sin whether you like it or not. And your arrogant rant proves nothing but foolishness. Mans will does not operate outside Gods Sovereignty nor is it independent from Gods Sovereign Will. You are terribly deceived. Free will theology is nothing more than that great lie Satan told Eve, “ ye shall be as gods”.. Genesis 3. Isaiah 46:9-11.

What would be the purpose of the judgment of man if it was God who put them there? That would be like creating a robot whereby it's only choice is to murder and then later putting that robot on trial for murdering. Such a thing would be non-sense. But you are free to believe as you wish (of course). Or are you not free to believe as you wish?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I’m sure the Judaizers thought the same

Actually the problem Jesus had with the Pharisees was that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42). He didn't say, "Hey guys! Don't worry about your sin or doing good works, just believe in my sacrifice alone." "That's it."

But Jesus did not say that to them.
Most of Jesus's criticism towards the Pharisees was in regards to what they were not doing. If it was just some kind of automatic thing they were going to do because they were elect, then Jesus would not bother to criticize them. Why argue with the dead?

 

[MDC]

If a coast guard rescues a man lost at sea and he had to tell the man to grab the life preserver, so that he could bring him to save him, I highly doubt that the man who was rescued would boast about himself to others in how he grabbed the life preserver and it was all himself saving the day with no mention of his coast guard rescuer. That wouldn't be normal and people would just look at him weird or they would think he was nuts.

The man being rescued is DEAD

 

[MDC]

What would be the purpose of the judgment of man if it was God who put them there? That would be like creating a robot whereby it's only choice is to murder and then later putting that robot on trial for murdering. Such a thing would be non-sense. But you are free to believe as you wish (of course). Oh are you not free to believe as you wish?

Romans 9:19-23.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The man being rescued is DEAD

You miss the point of the parable. The point is that a person would not boast in themselves if they cooperated with their rescuer. A normal person would give praise to their rescuer (even if they cooperated with their rescuer in some way to be saved). The person saved would not boast in themselves if they are truly grateful. The point here is that nobody boasts in themselves in this kind of situation. Yet, you are saying that any amount of effort or cooperation is cause for boasting when life shows us that this is not the case. So your belief here does not simply line up with what we know about reality.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 9:19-23.

That's great. You can quote a passage from the Bible. But you cannot actually explain how your belief is actually logical and how it would line up with the real world. Jesus gave us many real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. They are called parables and that is not something that you can do with Calvinism. It is by far the most illogical beliefs I have ever encountered. I am amazed people actually believe such a thing. Then again, it is easy to shift the blame away to someone else I suppose. It's not anyone's fault. So let's blame God, right? God is the one who chooses some to be sinners. God is the one who chooses some to be saved. Again, why have a Judgment if God is the one who put them there? Think. This is why Calvinism doesn't make any sense.

 

[MDC]

You miss the point of the parable. The point is that a person would not boast in themselves if they cooperated with their rescuer. A normal person would give praise to their rescuer (even if they cooperated with their rescuer in some way to be saved). The person saved would not boast in themselves if they are truly grateful. The point here is that nobody boasts in themselves in this kind of situation. Yet, you are saying that any amount of effort or cooperation is cause for boasting when life shows us that this is not the case. So your belief here does not simply line up with what we know about reality.

Ezekiel 36:25-27. No you miss the point. Man does not cooperate. Salvation is of the Lord. All of grace. All of mercy. All in Christ. This is a stumbling stone for the self righteous

 

[MDC]

That's great. You can quote a passage from the Bible. But you cannot actually explain how your belief is actually logical and how it would line up with the real world. Jesus gave us many real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. They are called parables and that is not something that you can do with Calvinism. It is by far the most illogical beliefs I have ever encountered. I am amazed people actually believe such a thing. Then again, it is easy to shift the blame away to someone else I suppose. It's not anyone's fault. So let's blame God, right? God is the one who chooses some to be sinners. God is the one who chooses some to be saved. Again, why have a Judgment if God is the one who put them there? Think. This is why Calvinism doesn't make any sense.

The only ones blaming God for their sin are free will Arminians (pelagians)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ezekiel 36:25-27. No you miss the point. Man does not cooperate. Salvation is of the Lord. All of grace. All of mercy. All in Christ. This is a stumbling stone for the self righteous

I already made a point using this passage in this thread in Post #248.

I will repeat it here:

As for Ezekiel 36:26-27 that suggests that God will cause His people to walk in His statutes, and for them to keep His judgments and to do them:

Well, while other verses do suggest the OT saint does have a new born again heart, in this particular passage, it is referring to the resurrected Jews who will live in the Millennium when ALL of the born again Jews (who were faithful to God and the Messiah) will regain the land promise in the future.

The bolded words in red below is the context (that people like to ignore):

24 "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:24-28).​

In other words, the faithful Jews to God and or the Messiah (Jesus) who have lived out their faith and proven themselves to God will one day be resurrected to be within the Millennium and to have the land promise will be caused by the Spirit to keep God's statutes and judgments (commands).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The only ones blaming God for their sin are free will Arminians (pelagians)

How so? Calvinists believe God chooses some to be unsaved and others to be saved. So this takes away any responsibility on your end. You have nobody to blame for anything but God then. But God is not the direct author of evil. God is holy and good and there is no darkness in God. God created free will creatures who have the capacity to do either good or bad.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyway, as for the poll results so far: I am really happy 11 other Christians have selected "no." for my poll question.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I’m sure the Judaizers thought the same

I’m positive they wanted to keep the jewish traditions because it was their heritage and culture.