Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[Strong in Him]

We are aware of what happened later. That is not the point. The point here is whether or not he was saved while committing those sins.

I've already said that I don't think anyone in the OT had any concept of "being saved".
The only One to have saved us from sin, hell and eternal death, was Jesus, and he hadn't come then.

Since the OT gives no teaching on it, you'd have to define, and show, what you mean by being saved.

 

[SkyWriting]

Well, this is the only verse that suggests (at first glance with a quick reading) that all sin is the same, and a reader who does use this verse to support this view has to do at the expense of ignoring so many other verses in the Bible.... .... .... .... ....

Long speech, no foundation.

 

[Oldmantook]

I don't know how rare it is and btw, thanks for the exegetical notes, I can only say if it happens it only happens once. Just as genuine conversion is a once and for all time event, departing from the risen Savior is a one time event. If they do, they are warned by the writer, they necessarily go onto perdition. Do note the writer makes clear he expects better of the recipients.

So given your position, say for example a genuine believer falls into sin - becomes an alcoholic. We know that 1 Cor 6:10 states "nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." So as a result of his drinking problem he has departed from the Savior and faces perdition. But what if he sobers up, no longer drinks/abstains and repents of his alcoholism. If he seeks forgiveness for having been a drunkard, is no forgiveness possible for him? Since he fell and you believe it is a one-time event, is restoration with the Father not a possibility?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Long speech, no foundation.

Please explain the verses using the context instead of simply making remarks that are only an opinion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've already said that I don't think anyone in the OT had any concept of "being saved".
The only One to have saved us from sin, hell and eternal death, was Jesus, and he hadn't come then.

Since the OT gives no teaching on it, you'd have to define, and show, what you mean by being saved.

David said he wanted the joy of his salvation in Psalms 51.
Mary (before the cross) said she rejoices in God her savior.
Why would they say these things if they were not saved?

 

[Strong in Him]

David said he wanted the joy of his salvation in Psalms 51.
Mary (before the cross) said she rejoices in God her savior.
Why would they say these things if they were not saved?

I don't know their motives for saying what they did.
But under OT law, when someone sinned, they offered a sacrifice. No doubt once they had made atonement, they were forgiven; I don't know about you, but being forgiven by God is a time of joy. No doubt, after finding out that he had sinned against God,and receiving punishment from him, David wanted God's forgiveness and favour again. But I doubt very much that he would have thought of himself as being "saved from sin."

Mary was giving thanks to God who was going to give her a child - the One who was to sit on David's throne and reign forever. She then went to visit Elizabeth - herself pregnant with a miracle child - who confirmed that her child would be truly special.
Mary and Joseph made the traditional sacrifice after Jesus was born, Luke 2:24; they were still offering sacrifices according to the law. Mary had prophecies that her child would be special - I doubt she fully understood that he would die on the cross to save people from their sin. Even the disciples didn't understand that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't know their motives for saying what they did.
But under OT law, when someone sinned, they offered a sacrifice. No doubt once they had made atonement, they were forgiven; I don't know about you, but being forgiven by God is a time of joy. No doubt, after finding out that he had sinned against God,and receiving punishment from him, David wanted God's forgiveness and favour again. But I doubt very much that he would have thought of himself as being "saved from sin."

So you are saying that David had no assurance of his salvation? It doesn't sound like that to me when he spoke in Psalms 51. You cannot explain his plain simple words because they refute your beleif that you do not want to let go. Plain and simple.

Mary was giving thanks to God who was going to give her a child - the One who was to sit on David's throne and reign forever. She then went to visit Elizabeth - herself pregnant with a miracle child - who confirmed that her child would be truly special.

No. That is not what she said. She said, "my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
" (Luke 1:47). If what you say is true, she would say something like: "My spirit will one day rejoice in the hope God may save me because of the coming Savior."

But.... that's not what she said.

Mary and Joseph made the traditional sacrifice after Jesus was born, Luke 2:24; they were still offering sacrifices according to the law. Mary had prophecies that her child would be special - I doubt she fully understood that he would die on the cross to save people from their sin. Even the disciples didn't understand that.

The blood of goats and bulls never took away sin.

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4).

They were only a temporary atonement and they had to keep revisting (by offering sacrifices) for the same past sins year after year. Their salvation ultimately rested in the promise of the coming Messiah (That was a guarantee). The lamb was slain since the foundation of the world. Well, the promise of the Lamb. It was a promise that was a sure thing. God's promises always come true. They were saved on the promise of Christ's coming savlation. For if Christ did not die on the cross, we would all be doomed. For there is salvation in no other name but Jesus. This would include even the OT saint. But they needed to have the right kind of faith in order to access the saving grace of their coming Messiah. They needed to believe and obey as a part of their faith.

 

[Strong in Him]

So you are saying that David had no assurance of his salvation? It doesn't sound like that to me when he spoke in Psalms 51. You cannot explain his plain simple words because they refute your beleif that you do not want to let go. Plain and simple.

I do not have a "belief that I do not want to let go."
I'm only saying that in the OT they did not talk about being saved from sin. plain and simple - show me the verses that say otherwise.
They believed that if they sinned they could make atonement, repent and be forgiven; the prophets talked about it often. But I don't believe they knew what it meant to be saved from sin, and never referred to it as such.

The word for salvation is, or derives from, Sozo, meaning wholeness and being right before God. David was not right before God while he was committing those sins, he was breaking God's commandments.
But the whole idea of salvation from sin, sin being defeated on the cross and not receiving eternal death is a NT one.
And the book of Hebrews had not been written, so they did not know that the blood of goats and bulls could not take away sin. They had God's law, commands and word - and they either kept that and walked in obedience before God, or they didn't.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Its just a way of saying things, nobody say that those terms are needed for salvation or something like that. Letting him in your heart is like accepting Him/inviting/asking him to be your saviour. And actually the spirit of God comes into to your heart as well as your soul and spirit too.

It is a way of offering cheap grace/salvation to people and make them feel good cause Jesus is homeless unless they invite him in. They use words that make them feel good about themselves.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Are you still saved when you sin... which you do constantly?

This kind of thinking seems to permeate the OSAS believers and they seem to have no problem at all with this aspect of their behaviuor. I wonder if we substituted the kinds of sin people do if they would say so without any thought like, "Are you still saved when you lie and cheat....which you do constantly?" Or "are you still saved when you committ adultery...which you do constantly?" Or my personal favourite "are you still saved when you disobey God...which you do constantly?" Are OSAS believer comfortable with doing these things "constantly."

I am very sure that the recepients of the sin of those who are comfortable with constantly sinners are not comfortable about being sinned against. But this never darkens the thoughts of OSAS believers as they are thinking only of how they are going to Heaven no matter how they treat others...which they have no problems doing constantly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, sin is that you think is wrong, but do it anyway.
Jesus told her she should stop doing that.

NO, sin is that which God thinks is wrong. IT does not depend solely upon what we think.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Notice the person KNOWS the RIGHT THING (in God's eyes, not theirs) and does not do that which is right (in God's eyes not theirs.) We do not get to decide what we think is right and God stands by and has to agree.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm not sure. Jesus sent the prostitute off with no real requirements other than stop doing what you think is sin.

No, he did not say that. He said "go and sin NO MORE." Not "stop doing what you happen to think is sin." God determines what is sin, not us. I know the thought that us determining what is sin sounds a lot more pleasant as we can just say something we like to do is not sin and fool ourselves into thinking God has to agree but this is not true. We are judged based on his view of sin, not our own feelings on the matter.

 

[MDC]

This kind of thinking seems to permeate the OSAS believers and they seem to have no problem at all with this aspect of their behaviuor. I wonder if we substituted the kinds of sin people do if they would say so without any thought like, "Are you still saved when you lie and cheat....which you do constantly?" Or "are you still saved when you committ adultery...which you do constantly?" Or my personal favourite "are you still saved when you disobey God...which you do constantly?" Are OSAS believer comfortable with doing these things "constantly."

I am very sure that the recepients of the sin of those who are comfortable with constantly sinners are not comfortable about being sinned against. But this never darkens the thoughts of OSAS believers as they are thinking only of how they are going to Heaven no matter how they treat others...which they have no problems doing constantly.

So do you sin? And if so, are you still saved?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Correct, and it is possible to not hate and not lust with one's eyes if they abide in Christ and they pray and seek His help to overcome these sins. For with God, all things are possible. Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh. .

I actually think it is not difficult as all to avoid. Hate and lust are not sins that everyone equally struggles with. Similiarly, I find the law "do not murder" not to be very difficult at all to keep. Easy as pie.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So do you sin? And if so, are you still saved?

I guess you believe in OSAS. This usually means you do not understand those of us who do not. We have a living relationship with God who forgives if we repent and confess our sins but who will let us walk away if we insist upon doing so. That is the opposite view of OSAS in a nutshell. THe OSAS believers I run into here only think about their salvation. That is it. A relationship with God, which is central to us, does not occur to them.

So your question to me is like asking, if you find yourself attracted to other men, are you no longer married? Do you fall in and out of marriage all the time because you find other men on occassion attractive?

 

[ClementofA]

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

Is your doctrine "Lordship salvation" & in agreement with everything on this page:

Question: "What is lordship salvation?"

Answer: The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts.

John MacArthur, whose book The Gospel According to Jesus lays out the case for lordship salvation, summarizes the teaching this way: “The gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ’s authority.” In other words, a sinner who refuses to repent is not saved, for he cannot cling to his sin and the Savior at the same time. And a sinner who rejects Christ’s authority in his life does not have saving faith, for true faith encompasses a surrender to God. Thus, the gospel requires more than making an intellectual decision or mouthing a prayer; the gospel message is a call to discipleship. The sheep will follow their Shepherd in submissive obedience.

What is lordship salvation?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hmmm... Or maybe you have little faith in God's forgiveness?
Try to earn your salvation by works maybe..
I don't know...

I always think of substituting some real words and see how that sounds. How about "you try to earn your salvation by not beating people" as though this is an accuation that makes a person realize that it is futile and beats away. Or you "try to earn your salvation by not stealing from others" as though this is a futile endeavor and one can forget trying. Or "try to earn your salvation by loving others as you love yourself" as though that is something one does only if one is a fool. One had better abandon loving GOd and man as that is "try(ing) to earn your salvation by works maybe."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Is your doctrine "Lordship salvation" & in agreement with everything on this page:




What is lordship salvation?

It is interesting that OSAS and denying Him as lord seem to go hand in hand. A light view of sin also usually occupies the mind "oh, everyone sins so don't worry...God will forgive you doing whatever you like to others. He doesn't mind at all and knows you will do this and has no problem with you stealing and lieing and ruining the lives of others to please yourself."

 

[MDC]

I guess you believe in OSAS. This usually means you do not understand those of us who do not. We have a living relationship with God who forgives if we repent and confess our sins but who will let us walk away if we insist upon doing so. That is the opposite view of OSAS in a nutshell. THe OSAS believers I run into here only think about their salvation. That is it. A relationship with God, which is central to us, does not occur to them.

So your question to me is like asking, if you find yourself attracted to other men, are you no longer married? Do you fall in and out of marriage all the time because you find other men on occassion attractive?

You won’t answer it simply because your assertions are hypocritical. The problem with self righteous religionists, who believe salvation can be earned and maintained by works of men, is that there is no faith in the gospel of Christ for salvation. This silly question the OP presents proves my point. It’s a question only to generate division and promote self righteous works salvation. There’s no mercy, no grace, and no gospel in this message. It’s nothing but arrogance and boasting in ones works of how holy one supposedly he thinks he is, and thinking you do it for a relationship with Christ. It’s void of faith in Christ. Salvation is an act of Gods mercy (election) conditioned solely in Christ and His merits alone. This is what the unsaved self righteous cannot rest in

 

[ClementofA]

This is simply not true. Not all sin is the same. Please show me a place in the Bible where God condemns us for disobeying Christ's command to "Rejoice when we are persecuted" as per Matthew 5.

1. Hebrews 5:9.

2. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

3. Mt.5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

The next verse says:

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

and the sermon ends with:

Mt.7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

4. Mt.13:21And he has in himself no root, but is temporary. And having come tribulation or persecution on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

Mark 4:17
But they themselves have no root, and they remain for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.