Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[Oldmantook]

It's not your exegetical notes I take issue with, but the fact that while they were elect there is no indication that they were lost because they were led astray. They were babes in Christ, some people had gotten to them, Paul set them straight.

You failed to answer my question. Can one abandon/desert/deny Christ and still remain saved. Is that too difficult to answer? Paul did not set them straight as they were still abandoning Christ.

 

[mark kennedy]

You failed to answer my question. Can one abandon/desert/deny Christ and still remain saved. Is that too difficult to answer? Paul did not set them straight as they were still abandoning Christ.

Of course not, but you can only do it once.

 

[Oldmantook]

Of course not, but you can only do it once.

Where does Scripture state you can only do it once? Your belief requires scriptural support. Scripture citation please?

 

[mark kennedy]

Where does Scripture state you can only do it once? Your belief requires scriptural support. Scripture citation please?

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
​

If you can lose your salvation you can only do it once. When Jason gets back from his project I'll be happy to show that to him again.

 

[redleghunter]

It's not your exegetical notes I take issue with, but the fact that while they were elect there is no indication that they were lost because they were led astray. They were babes in Christ, some people had gotten to them, Paul set them straight.

You continue to make the good point we must take the Scriptures noted in context. You are right they were a church of babes in Christ and needed an adult hand to set them straight.

 

[Der Alte]

anfang

<MarkK>It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
If you can lose your salvation you can only do it once.<end>

ende

Thought I might toss in my .02¢. I believe that Heb 6:4-6 supports the belief that a truly born again believer can "lose" their salvation. But by "lose" I don't mean "losing" in an accidental or unintended way.
.....For example, I recently lost a small pocket tool that I had carried since '95, more than 23 years. I reached in my pocket one day and it was not there. I searched in all the places I might have lost it but I could not find it.
.....Now as for "losing" one's salvation. Someone does not wake up one day and realize that they somehow, somewhere lost their salvation and they search for it much like I searched for my tool. One is not saved by refraining from sinning thus no number of sins will cause one to "lose" their salvation. I believe that one may lose their "salvation" by deliberately, willfully rejecting God and Jesus.

 

[mark kennedy]

You continue to make the good point we must take the Scriptures noted in context. You are right they were a church of babes in Christ and needed an adult hand to set them straight.

It had not been a year yet Red, these Jewish Christians came in when Paul went to Jerusalem. Barnabas, his ministry partner had been led astray along with Peter, what chance did these baby Christians have? Paul's words were strong but in the end he would be kind, he was chasing off the false teachers then gathering the flock that had been scattered. They didn't lose their salvation, they were reminded how salvation works. To my knowledge, there wasn't a problem after that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

<MarkK>It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
If you can lose your salvation you can only do it once.<end>
Thought I might toss in my .02¢. I believe that Heb 6:4-6 supports the belief that a truly born again believer can "lose" their salvation. But by "lose" I don't mean "losing" in an accidental or unintended way.
.....For example, I recently lost a small pocket tool that I had carried since '95, more than 23 years. I reached in my pocket one day and it was not there. I searched in all the places I might have lost it but I could not find it.
.....Now as for "losing" one's salvation. Someone does not wake up one day and realize that they somehow, somewhere lost their salvation and they search for it much like I searched for my tool. One is not saved by refraining from sinning thus no number of sins will cause one to "lose" their salvation. I believe that one may lose their "salvation" by deliberately, willfully rejecting God and Jesus.

Of course I would agree, my point is that it's not about some sin you fall into, of course that should be avoided. But if you are lost the first time you covet your neighbors car or have a temper tantrum. The whole premise of the OP is that when you sin you are not saved, did you read it, because it's ridiculous. We should fear God and shun evil, what would be the point of salvation otherwise? But if it's possible to lose salvation it will only happen once, after that you are a child of perdition. Conviction of sin does not get checked at the door, repentance is a life's work following conversion, that's all.

 

[Vi]

I'm thinking that, pre-humanChrist, saving was not as it is in post-humanChrist, and belief in God was what made you 'saved/righteous'. Perhaps salvation then is a work in progress, a timeline, not the event many people believe it is today.
Add to this the importance to God of this person, David... surely more important than I am in God's plan, unless there's something in my lineage that I don't know abt. Pre-Christ, it would be important for David to be guided, even as he sins, ensuring his journey.
Maybe I'm not saying this the way I'm understanding it, i normally get it but don't always explain it well.

 

[Vi]

Also, if truely saved (this would be post-Christ) scripture states nothing can make us lose our salvation. (Rom 8: 38-39?)
You can believe that the HS is with us to ensure we can accomplish the Christian life, and/or that we cannot do anything to lose it. Either way, focus is on the true disciple and the work of the HS in us, yes?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

So abandoning the gospel and turning to another makes it okay? If a new convert comes to faith and then 1 week later abandons the gospel and embraces Buddhism is that still okay as they are still saved?

Not okay, and God can and does rescue His chosen people out of other religions. Evidently even Christians can be deceived, even if for a time, before the Spirit of God gives discernment. There are purposes for trials such as these, to make the people of God wiser, and less "foolish" than those Galatians.

 

[Oldmantook]

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
​

If you can lose your salvation you can only do it once. When Jason gets back from his project I'll be happy to show that to him again.

Sorry, but I think (forgive me if I'm presuming) your lack of awareness of the Greek text has caused you to misinterpret this passage. You're not alone as many have misinterpreted that passage. To being with we both agree that this passage refers to genuine believers as they have been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, etc. But the verse states that they have fallen away and it is impossible to bring them back to repentance. So far, so good. The pertinent question then is why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. When the verse itself provides the answer, we need not look any further. The end of this verse states that they are CRUCIFYING and SUBJECTING him/Jesus to public disgrace. The Greek words for crucifying and subjecting to disgrace/shaming are anastaurountas and paradeigmatizontas respectively. These two words are present tense participles meaning that the actions of crucifying and shaming Jesus by these people is still ongoing. They are not repentant but instead remain rebellious as is obvious by their continuous sinful actions. Since they are continuing to sin; it is therefore impossible to renew them to repentance. It is impossible to be brought back to repentance because their very actions demonstrate that they have no interest in repenting.
This passage in no way infers that if one falls away and loses his/her salvation, it is not possible to be restored and reconciled to God upon genuine repentance and turning away from sin. This passage only applies to those who have no interest in being reconciled.

 

[Oldmantook]

Not okay, and God can and does rescue His chosen people out of other religions. Evidently even Christians can be deceived, even if for a time, before the Spirit of God gives discernment. There are purposes for trials such as these, to make the people of God wiser, and less "foolish" than those Galatians.

I agree except for the fact that some can permanently be deceived and never return to the faith.

 

[Oldmantook]

Also, if truely saved (this would be post-Christ) scripture states nothing can make us lose our salvation. (Rom 8: 38-39?)
You can believe that the HS is with us to ensure we can accomplish the Christian life, and/or that we cannot do anything to lose it. Either way, focus is on the true disciple and the work of the HS in us, yes?

Rom 8:38-39 does not list sin as one of the things that cannot separate us from the love of God because sin does indeed separate us from God. Rather, in the same chapter in v.13 Paul explicitly warns the brethren living in Rome that IF they live according to the flesh, they will die, i.e. spiritual death.

 

[ClementofA]

Actually, those who worship the beast in the future mentioned in Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 never even had their names written in the book of life
since the foundation of the world. So this means Jesus did not die for their sins as a part of Him dying for the sins of the world.

That means you are advocating limited atonement as Calvinists do. And which Scripture clearly opposes.

What gives you the notion that the "book of life" has a static number of names in it from the foundation of the world that cannot be changed or have names added or subtracted from it. Revelation 3:5 speaks of being blotted out of the book, as do other Scriptures:

Revelation 3:5
Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

Psalm 69:28
May they be erased from the book of life and not listed with the righteous.

Exodus 32:32
Yet now, if You would only forgive their sin... But if not, please blot me out of the book that You have written."

Exodus 32:33
The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will erase from My book.

If people in the book of life cannot lose their salvation & be blotted out, yet you believe Scripture teaches people can lose their salvation, then why does Paul say:

Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, my true yokefellow, to help these women who have labored with me for the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

If people can lose their salvation, & those in the book of life cannot lose their salvation, how does Paul know those people will be saved? All he says is their names - are - in the book of life. Not that they cannot be erased from it with the loss of their salvation. Or added back in upon returning to the Father (cf. Lk.15, prodigal son story).

Moreover, Scripture says overcomers are given a new name:

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

So which names are in the book of life (BOL), people's old nature names, or their new names? Is it Abram, or Abraham? Is it Saul, or Paul? Tom Talbott remarks:

"Perhaps all the descendants of Adam, all who came into the world as "children of wrath", also go by a name that is not written in the BOL. Yes some names are written there from the foundation of the world and some are not. But is "Abram" written there? Or is it "Abraham"? In Revelation 2:17 we read: "To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden mana, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone, which no one knows except him who receives it." Evidently then, people can receive a new name, and this is certainly consistent with the idea of a new birth or a new creation in Christ. So is not the following consistent with the teaching about the Lamb's BOL? Even though no new names are ever added, people can (as all Christians do) receive a new name, one that has always been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world" (The Evangelical Universalist, Second Edition, by Gregory MacDonald, 2012, p.194).

Ultimately all will have life & "be constituted just", so all will be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

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[Vi]

Oldman: But what you speak of is pre-salvation, things that require us to need salvation. The scripture speaks of post salvation, after receiving salvation.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

I would say the question is irrelevant because David repented. Any other position is hypothetical.

I encourage all I witness to, to be as David was, when confronted by the word concerning sin confess and affirm your faith in the sacrifice of Jesus believing that God will lead you in paths of righteousness so that you will not repeat the offense.

Certainly we know that David was saved afterward because he never repeated this offense again.

It is shameful to repeat an offense Jesus has cleansed you of and is referred to as "a dog returning to its vomit," or "putting your hand to the plough and looking back."

I do not say this to bring condemnation for Jesus tells us to forgive all who repent no matter how often they re-offend. If Jesus teaches us to do this you can rest assured he is doing it all the time.

Do you not realise that forgiveness is the power not to re-offend? However, when we are weak, then he is strong.

 

[Oldmantook]

Oldman: But what you speak of is pre-salvation, things that require us to need salvation. The scripture speaks of post salvation, after receiving salvation.

Not sure of what you mean since you don't reference which scripture you're referring to. Rom 8:13 is addressed to believers as the previous v.12 makes it clear that Paul is referring to the brethren. Paul warns the brethren that IF they live according to the flesh, they will die. This cannot be referencing pre-salvation because 1) it is addressed to brethren/believers, 2) the word "If" can only apply to believers as only believers have the choice if they will choose to live according to the flesh or if they will choose to live according to the Spirit. Unbelievers on the other hand can only choose to sin so it is not a matter of If. Therefore, if a believer's lifestyle is marked by living according to the flesh, he will spiritually die.

 

[mark kennedy]

Sorry, but I think (forgive me if I'm presuming) your lack of awareness of the Greek text has caused you to misinterpret this passage. You're not alone as many have misinterpreted that passage. To being with we both agree that this passage refers to genuine believers as they have been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, etc. But the verse states that they have fallen away and it is impossible to bring them back to repentance. So far, so good. The pertinent question then is why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. When the verse itself provides the answer, we need not look any further. The end of this verse states that they are CRUCIFYING and SUBJECTING him/Jesus to public disgrace. The Greek words for crucifying and subjecting to disgrace/shaming are anastaurountas and paradeigmatizontas respectively. These two words are present tense participles meaning that the actions of crucifying and shaming Jesus by these people is still ongoing. They are not repentant but instead remain rebellious as is obvious by their continuous sinful actions. Since they are continuing to sin; it is therefore impossible to renew them to repentance. It is impossible to be brought back to repentance because their very actions demonstrate that they have no interest in repenting.
This passage in no way infers that if one falls away and loses his/her salvation, it is not possible to be restored and reconciled to God upon genuine repentance and turning away from sin. This passage only applies to those who have no interest in being reconciled.

I don't know how rare it is and btw, thanks for the exegetical notes, I can only say if it happens it only happens once. Just as genuine conversion is a once and for all time event, departing from the risen Savior is a one time event. If they do, they are warned by the writer, they necessarily go onto perdition. Do note the writer makes clear he expects better of the recipients.

 

[Eloy Craft]

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This was to the Jews who went back to waiting for the Messiah again. They crucify Him over again because they are waiting again..There is no more sacrifice for them.