Was Billy Graham the 24th Elder

[Postvieww]

In my belief, they are human, and are not angels because they don't have the attributes of angels.

Would you point out where in scripture it lists the attributes of the elders that shows they are not angels or created beings part of the heavenly hosts?

Good posting and discussion mean add your own ideas rather than pick other peoples ideas apart.

Sorry, good debate challenges ideas with reasons they may or may not be true!

 

[seventysevens]

Would you point out where in scripture it lists the attributes of the elders that shows they are not angels or created beings part of the heavenly hosts?



Sorry, good debate challenges ideas with reasons they may or may not be true!

While the topic is somewhat controversial; here is a source that expounds on the topic
Revelation 4:4 Commentary - A Testimony of Jesus Christ

 

[Postvieww]

I think that the 24 elders are human because :

The 24 thrones on which the 24 elders sat indicates that they reign with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning.

Revelation 4:4 and Revelation 11:16 is translated “seats” not “thrones”. Although it is the same Greek word as throne the Strong’s definition is “stately seat”. Glad we agree angels will not rule and reign on the earth, see my point at the bottom of this post. I see nothing in scripture to prevent God having a class of created beings around His throne to do His bidding.

Presbuteroi (elders) is not used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men

True of God’s people on earth but the context of “elders” here is in God’s domain in heaven where He has ranking created beings for His service and to do His bidding.

The elders wore golden crowns on their heads and angels do not wear crowns and Jesus gives the Church -Body of Christ various crowns and not to angels that scripture ever mentions

Revelation 9:7 Just might be an exception as well as Revelation 6:2. I know of no scripture that says only those redeemed may wear a crown.

and other reasons , but these are enough to establish that they would be human and represent the Body of Christ

You left out that the elders wear white, which believers are shown in scripture to wear but angels are also seen wearing white. Mark 16:5, John 20:12, Acts 1:10

I believe I have shown enough to establish that they just may not be humans. But there is more!

1. The timing of Revelation 4&5 where we first see the “elders” is just before and at the time of Jesus’s ascension to heaven, prior to Revelation 5:6 Jesus was not mentioned as being in heaven. Revelation 5:4 says no man was found worthy to open the book. Next in Revelation 5:6 Jesus is there and takes the book. The point here is prior to Jesus arrival in heaven we could not have Apostle’s or representatives of the church seated around the throne.

2. Now we have the most important point of all. KJV Revelation 5:6-10 tells us BOTH the 24 elders and the four beasts fells down before the Lamb all of them with harps and golden vials with prayers of saints. Verse 9 “THEY” all 28 sang a new song. KJV says in verse 9 “for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”

This creates a problem, I know of no one who will argue the 4 beasts are humans from the earth, there is almost universal agreement they are created beings in heaven. Verse 9 the same passage used by many as proof the elders are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb also says the beasts are redeemed as well. This cannot be the case created beings in heaven cannot be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb! IMHO this is a bad translation on the part of the KJV.

The ASV corrects this problem.

Revelation 5:8-10 American Standard Version (ASV)

8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sing a new song, saying,

Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.

ASV changes us to them and they which in IMHO correct rthe text of KJV so we do not have the 4 beasts claiming to be redeemend by the blood of the Lamb and that also removes this passage as a proof text to make the “elders” redeemed saints!

I have pointed this fact out several times on this forum usually it is ignored never rebutted. Will you take the challenge and at least address it.

 

[Hiscosmicgoldfish3]

Who else could they be? Names anyone?

the pope? Todd Bently?

 

[seventysevens]

i did not make my comment to be all encompassing but to show that the 24 elders are most likely to be human as pertaining to what is said about them would not be angels

The 4 creatures that are with the 24 elders - the word is ζῷα which is defined as "living creatures" - so far I have not found a more detailed description of what they are

I have found several translations that match the ASV and others that match KJV though the Greek ζῷα is translated as "living creatures"

Noun
ζῷον • (zôion) n (genitive ζῴου); second declension

1. animal, beast
2. (art) form, image

It will require a more in depth search to find out more if there is more info available to be found

Revelation 4:4 and Revelation 11:16 is translated “seats” not “thrones”. Although it is the same Greek word as throne the Strong’s definition is “stately seat”. Glad we agree angels will not rule and reign on the earth, see my point at the bottom of this post. I see nothing in scripture to prevent God having a class of created beings around His throne to do His bidding.



True of God’s people on earth but the context of “elders” here is in God’s domain in heaven where He has ranking created beings for His service and to do His bidding.



Revelation 9:7 Just might be an exception as well as Revelation 6:2. I know of no scripture that says only those redeemed may wear a crown.




You left out that the elders wear white, which believers are shown in scripture to wear but angels are also seen wearing white. Mark 16:5, John 20:12, Acts 1:10

I believe I have shown enough to establish that they just may not be humans. But there is more!

1. The timing of Revelation 4&5 where we first see the “elders” is just before and at the time of Jesus’s ascension to heaven, prior to Revelation 5:6 Jesus was not mentioned as being in heaven. Revelation 5:4 says no man was found worthy to open the book. Next in Revelation 5:6 Jesus is there and takes the book. The point here is prior to Jesus arrival in heaven we could not have Apostle’s or representatives of the church seated around the throne.

2. Now we have the most important point of all. KJV Revelation 5:6-10 tells us BOTH the 24 elders and the four beasts fells down before the Lamb all of them with harps and golden vials with prayers of saints. Verse 9 “THEY” all 28 sang a new song. KJV says in verse 9 “for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”

This creates a problem, I know of no one who will argue the 4 beasts are humans from the earth, there is almost universal agreement they are created beings in heaven. Verse 9 the same passage used by many as proof the elders are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb also says the beasts are redeemed as well. This cannot be the case created beings in heaven cannot be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb! IMHO this is a bad translation on the part of the KJV.

The ASV corrects this problem.

Revelation 5:8-10 American Standard Version (ASV)

8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sing a new song, saying,

Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.

ASV changes us to them and they which in IMHO correct rthe text of KJV so we do not have the 4 beasts claiming to be redeemend by the blood of the Lamb and that also removes this passage as a proof text to make the “elders” redeemed saints!

I have pointed this fact out several times on this forum usually it is ignored never rebutted. Will you take the challenge and at least address it.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Since God and heaven are outside of time, why would the timing of Rev Graham's death affect anything?

Excellent answer!

 

[Monk Brendan]

(Yes I have hope for Judas, who repented).

But did he repent? I have always been told that he despaired of Jesus having mercy on him, and died in his despair, leading him, to hell.

 

[Monk Brendan]

If you are saved by the blood of Jesus you are not going to hell, but Freemasonry is satanic that is a fact!

Huh?????
Where did that come from?

 

[Monk Brendan]

Repentance could very well mean the activity that occurs in the heart once one believes.

Repentance is not a one time thing. Rather, it is a lifetime commitment.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The thing that caught my attention and reasoning, is that if BG was the 24th elder, that makes the number complete and the end can come quickly now.

But that is not what we are called to look for. We are called to love our God and our neighbor. We are called to evangelize all the world. Has that been done? Even down to a newborn baby that lives in Pyongyang? I don't think so. It won't happen until ALL have heard the Good News.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The thing that caught my attention and reasoning, is that if BG was the 24th elder, that makes the number complete and the end can come quickly now.

But that is not what we are called to look for. We are called to love our God and our neighbor. We are called to evangelize all the world. Has that been done? Even down to a newborn baby that lives in Pyongyang? I don't think so. It won't happen until ALL have heard the Good News.

 

[drjean]

I am going to try and reply to each post of mine quoted and quizzed and other comments I have. In reverse order perhaps?

I believe we ARE called to look always for Jesus. I realize not everyone is able to do this, for one reason or another, but for those who do it is so important to God, there is a CROWN for them!

• 2 Timothy 4:8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

• some ideas on the crowns: How To Win Your Crowns – Grace thru faith

The whole world was evangelized/told the Good News. Our forefather etc all heard.

• Psalm 19:4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world. In them He has placed a tent for the sun
• Romans 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
• Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
• Colossians 1:6 This same Good News that came to you is going out all over the world. It is bearing fruit everywhere by changing lives, just as it changed your lives from the day you first heard and understood the truth about God's wonderful grace.

I was referring to the idea of "repentance" that some say is required for salvation. This is the turning away from sin and towards God. However, from what I read and hear by great preachers, it is impossible for us to turn away from sin until after we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and the sin is removed from us. We can do nothing as sinners but belief God for His Gift of Jesus and salvation. The Holy Spirit must compel us to come first, and cleanse us. If we could repent first, then that is a work I believe. Jesus did not "always" say repent and be baptized... He did say "Believe."

Did Judas repent? I believe Scripture is clear for me on that, the Greek word repented is used. Even when more modern texts have nearly all changed it to "seized with remorse" and "moved with regret" it shows the change in the attitude of the heart. Not only that, but he proved his remorse by returning the money and then hanging himself in such despair! No one who has not repented would do such actions imo.

• Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

I still believe that 1) elders are male and 2) the 24 elders are not angels. Angels do not sit (neither on seats nor thrones, when in presence of God). Crowns are given to believers after the rapture (wink wink--see the timing here)

• Revelation 4:4 declares, “Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.”
• the Greek word translated here as “elders” is never used to refer to angels, only to men, particularly to men of a certain age who are mature and able to rule the Church.
• The word translated “crown” here refers to the victor’s crown, worn by those who have successfully competed and won the victory, as Christ promised (Revelation 2:10; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12).
• The most likely option is that the elders represent the raptured Church which sings songs of redemption (Revelation 5:8-10). They wear the crowns of victory and have gone to the place prepared for them by their Redeemer (John 14:1-4). Who are the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation?
• Revelation 4:4 Commentary - A Testimony of Jesus Christ
  https://www.biblestudytools.com/.../revelation/revelation-4/revelation-4-4.html
  Presbuteroi (elders) is never used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general, and the rulers of both Israel and the church. There is no indisputable use of presbuteroi outside of Revelation to refer to angels.
• • Strong's Concordance
    presbuteros: elder
    Original Word: πρεσβύτερος, α, ον
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: presbuteros
    Phonetic Spelling: (pres-boo'-ter-os)
    Short Definition: elder
    Definition: elder, usually used as subst.; an elder, a member of the Sanhedrin, an elder of a Christian assembly.
    4245 presbýteros – properly, a mature man having seasoned judgment (experience); an elder.
    
    The NT specifies elders are men. (The feminine singular, presbytera, never occurs in the Bible.)
    
    [The feminine plural, presbyteras, occurs in 1 Tim 5:2. It refers to aged women, i.e. not women with an official church office or title.]

I will further elaborate for those asking specifically about the attribute of angels. In angelology we learn:

• The angels were originally created as holy beings to serve God. Isaiah records the angels as saying:
  'And one called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory" (Isaiah 6:3).' The phrase, "the LORD of hosts" means He is the LORD of angels.
• And Ezra said: "You are the LORD, You alone; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. To all of them You give life, and the host of heaven worships You (Nehemiah 9:6).
  
• And again, when He brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "Let all God's angels worship Him" (Hebrews 1:6).

So they would not be sitting, reigning WITH God, but serving and worshipping Him.

• Every reference to angels is incidental to some other topic. They are not treated in themselves. God’s revelation never aims at informing us regarding the nature of angels. When they are mentioned, it is always in order to inform us further about God, what he does, and how he does it. Since details about angels are not significant for that purpose, they tend to be omitted.3 https://bible.org/article/angelology-doctrine-angels

The Scripture that tells us of the existence of the 4 and 20 elders is specifically telling us about them. This is incongruent to the rest of Scripture where we learn of angels. Plus we have this verse by Jesus:

• And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Continuing to work backwards in the thread to questions of my posts:

There were more than 12 apostles in total. First we begin with the twelve chosen by Jesus.

• Eleven are named in Acts 1:13, “Peter and John, and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. “ Judas Iscariot was also one of the original twelve.
• Matthew 10:2-4 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot...

Then add Matthias

• who replaced Judas Iscariot to become one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (Acts 1:26). “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:14).

When we include both Judas and Matthias the total is now thirteen.

Then add Paul (who was chosen and taught by Jesus)

• Romans 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
• Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
• Galatians 1:11-12 (NASB) For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ
• Galatians 1:17 (NASB) nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus

So we have 14. But only the original 12 and Paul were selected by Jesus. If one agrees that even if Judas repented (for really, he was chosen to betray Christ, did he have an option?) he would probably not be wanted on the throne reigning and probably would not accept it anyway imo.

To me, the original 11 that Jesus selected as described in Acts 1:13, and Paul equals 12 apostles selected by Jesus.


I think the final thing to say at this time is I fully believe there are 12 apostles and 12 prophets, and no, I do not think any on that list I gave of greats in our history are any of the elders.
With that said... PROPHETS:

• Enoch
  
• Abraham
• Moses
• Aaron
• Elijah
• Elisha
  
• Isaiah
• Jeremiah
• Ezekiel
• Daniel
• Jonah
• Amos
• Hosea
• Obadiah
• Jonah
• Micah
• Nahum
• Habakkuk
• Zephaniah
• Haggai
• Zechariah
• Malachi

But there were those who weren't as great, such as Moses (who rebelled to God in the very beginning which is why Aaron was made his prophet)...and Jonah who also rebelled...Obadiah only preached at Edom...Micah has almost nothing written about him...Nahum preached to Ninevah...Zechariah only 2 years' work....

But there are other prophets in the OT, for instance....

• Ezra
• Nathan
• Simeon
• John the Baptist (who came in the spirit of Elijah (Luke 1:16))

PS In my understanding of Scripture, eschatology specifically, there is no prophecy that has to be fulfilled for the taking out of the believers to occur. ALL the prophecy left to be fulfilled have to do with the tribulation and the millennium.

PPS I will note that I always thought that it might be more glorious to be raptured than to die (hello?) and that is why God kept Billy Graham alive...in the end times. Perhaps He had planned to but Billy kept praying because he was "ready to go home".... and took him? Of course I don't know. But when one realizes how each aging minister "finishes" his course, God has taken him home (end times I'm speaking) and with so many about to go home, one can only think of how merciful God is being to "delay" so that those who have lingered in accepting Christ have yet "one more opportunity" to not reject Christ Jesus! Don't put it off. Be sure of your salvation today!

 

[1stcenturylady]

But that is not what we are called to look for. We are called to love our God and our neighbor. We are called to evangelize all the world. Has that been done? Even down to a newborn baby that lives in Pyongyang? I don't think so. It won't happen until ALL have heard the Good News.

Then Jesus will NEVER come because there are always going to be newborns.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I heard an interesting speculation about the 24 elders seeing as no one knows for sure who they are. Some say the 12 apostles and 12 prophets, but what if they are 24 of the closest to God leaders throughout Judaism and Christianity.

Franklin Graham felt that at the death of his father, all hell will break loose.

From this saying, someone now speculates that now that the 24 elders are seated, the rest of Revelation can start to be fulfilled - GT, etc. - the coming of Jesus!

Who else could they be? Names anyone?

most likely the 12 sons of Jacob and the 11 apostles n Paul

 

[Postvieww]

Huh?????
Where did that come from?

If you go back and read the post it was in response to, it should be obvious.

 

[Postvieww]

The most likely option is that the elders represent the raptured Church which sings songs of redemption (Revelation 5:8-10). They wear the crowns of victory and have gone to the place prepared for them by their Redeemer (John 14:1-4). Who are the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation?

As pointed out in Posts #41 & #64, this creates a problem. Who are the four beasts that also sing the song of redemption if you go with the KJV and similarly translated versions? These four beast described in detail in Revelation 4 are not human beings!

KJV has 24 elders and 4 beasts singing a song of redemption referring to themselves as having been redeemed, which forces one to make the four beasts human or ignore they are even in the text.

ASV has the 24 elders and the four beasts singing a song of redemption about those redeemed from the earth not themselves.

It should be easy to determine which the more accurate translation is.

The most likely option cannot be the raptured church represented in heaven in Revelation 4 &5.

There is no resurrection/ rapture described in Revelation 1 thru 5.

1. Jesus just arrives in heaven from His ascension Revelation 5:6. He had not been there before Revelation 5:4

2. The seals had not yet been opened.

I see no scriptural way to place the church or representatives from the church as elders in Revelation 4&5.

 

[Postvieww]

delete duplicate post

 

[Postvieww]

The most likely option is that the elders represent the raptured Church which sings songs of redemption (Revelation 5:8-10). They wear the crowns of victory and have gone to the place prepared for them by their Redeemer (John 14:1-4). Who are the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation?

As pointed out in Posts #41 & #64, this creates a problem. Who are the four beasts that also sing the song of redemption if you go with the KJV and similarly translated versions? These four beast described in detail in Revelation 4 are not human beings!

KJV has 24 elders and 4 beasts singing a song of redemption referring to themselves as having been redeemed, which forces one to make the four beasts human or ignore they are even in the text.

ASV has the 24 elders and the four beasts singing a song of redemption about those redeemed from the earth not themselves.

It should be easy to determine which the more accurate translation is.

The most likely option cannot be the raptured church represented in heaven in Revelation 4 &5.

There is no resurrection/ rapture described in Revelation 1 thru 5.

1. Jesus just arrives in heaven from His ascension Revelation 5:6. He had not been there before Revelation 5:4

2. The seals had not yet been opened.

I see no scriptural way to place the church or representatives from the church as elders in Revelation 4&5.

 

[seventysevens]

. Who are the four beasts that also sing the song of redemption if you go with the KJV and similarly translated versions? These four beast described in detail in Revelation 4 are not human beings!

KJV has 24 elders and 4 beasts singing a song of redemption referring to themselves as having been redeemed, which forces one to make the four beasts human or ignore they are even in the text.

.

Whether or not the rapture has occurred in chapter 4 is not really relevant to who or what the 4 creatures are - they are with 24 human elders (or elders that are not angels) with 4 living creatures regardless if they are raptured or come through the GT - they are who they are - we can't assume that the 4 living creatures are men just because they are singing - IMHO they are a special class on angelic divine beings that are far more than messengers or maybe not messengers to men but just special servants for special purposes of God , they are created by Almighty God for special purpose -- some type of divine justice purpose that is reserved only for Almighty God , similar to seraphim - similar to what we see in Isa 6 , or Ezek 1,

 

[Postvieww]

delete duplicate post

 

[Postvieww]

Whether or not the rapture has occurred in chapter 4 is not really relevant to who or what the 4 creatures are - they are with 24 human elders (or elders that are not angels) with 4 living creatures regardless if they are raptured or come through the GT - they are who they are - we can't assume that the 4 living creatures are men just because they are singing -

I don’t assume that. If one takes the position that the 24 elders are representative the church because they sing a song of redemption how do we account for the four beasts singing the same song?

I disagree that it can be established they are human based solely on the word elders. God has many created beings in heaven they all do not have the same function or rank. The use of the word "elders" on earth does not define the use of the word in heaven.

IMHO they are a special class on angelic divine beings that are far more than messengers or maybe not messengers to men but just special servants for special purposes of God , they are created by Almighty God for special purpose -- some type of divine justice purpose that is reserved only for Almighty God , similar to seraphim - similar to what we see in Isa 6 , or Ezek 1,

Agree, they are “a special class of angelic divine beings”. Now back to my point, how do we account for those divine beings singing the same song of redemption as the 24 elders? The ASV translation eliminates the conflict. Neither the 24 elders or the 4 beasts are singing about themselves, so that song of redemption is not proof or evidence to support the 24 elders as being human.

 

[seventysevens]

I don’t assume that. If one takes the position that the 24 elders are representative the church because they sing a song of redemption how do we account for the four beasts singing the same song?


Agree, they are “a special class of angelic divine beings”. Now back to my point, how do we account for those divine beings singing the same song of redemption as the 24 elders? The ASV translation eliminates the conflict. Neither the 24 elders or the 4 beasts are singing about themselves, so that song of redemption is not proof or evidence to support the 24 elders as being human.

As pointed out previously regarding the 24 elders :
The 24 thrones on which the 24 elders sat indicates that they reign with Christ.

Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning.

Presbuteroi (elders) is not used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men

The elders wore golden crowns on their heads and angels do not wear crowns and Jesus gives the Church -Body of Christ various crowns and not to angels that scripture ever mentions

So the 24 human elders are bowing unto Almighty God along with 4 special divine beings God created for His personal purpose - since the scriptures does not tell us precisely what/who they are - and there have been angelic divine beings from the beginning that sing Holy Holy Holy - ....

Who do you say that they are and what scripture support do you have that supports your view ?