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Featured Was Billy Graham the 24th Elder

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by 1stcenturylady, Mar 30, 2018.

  1. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    You did not refute anything , you don't seem to know what that means , IF you would have read my earlier posts you would have seen that you were agreeing with what I said !
    earlier - ...but you added a bunch of gibberish
     
  2. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    I doubt whether Billy Graham would be one of the 24 Elders. In the same way Jesus was made perfect through suffering, so those who want high position in heaven must be prepared to "laydown their lives", "take up their cross", remember Jesus words:

    Mar 10:37-40 And they said to him, Let us be seated, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory. But Jesus said to them, You have no knowledge of what you are saying. Are you able to take of my cup? or to undergo the baptism which I am to undergo? And they said to him, We are able. And Jesus said to them, You will take of the cup from which I take; and the baptism which I am about to undergo you will undergo: But to be seated at my right hand or at my left is not for me to give: but it is for those for whom it has been made ready.

    Jesus said to have high position in heaven involved suffering like He did for the sake of others.

    Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand.

    How were these purified? Through suffering.

    Rev 6:9-11 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.

    Rev 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Again to be a priest, in high position in heaven, one must suffer and die like Jesus did.

    Billy Graham, although a mighty man of God, is unlikely to be of the Elderly class in heaven. It could be be some poor suffering saint in Africa, or Iraq.
     
  3. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    you may present it
     
  4. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    I understand your reasoning here and except for just a couple of details you left out seems solid.

    1. How can the “new song” of Revelation 5:9 be the same “new song” of Revelation 14:3 which no man could learn but the 144,000 which were redeemed from the earth when both the 24 elders and the 4 beasts sang a “new song” in Revelation 5:8-10?

    2. How can the 4 beasts be redeemed from the earth by His “blood” as the KJV translation indicates. I believe the ASV version of Revelation 5: 8-10 is the more accurate not creating this problem. In the ASV the Elders and Beasts are singing about the redeemed they are not the redeemed.

    MY only question now is how you will answer the two problems for your theory stated above.

    I will try to ignore the attitude in your comment above.

    The biblical truth is both groups 24 Elders and 4 Beasts sang the new song. Looking for your solution.
     
  5. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I understand what you are saying. It was during a 13 year period of suffering that I learned TOTAL surrender to the Lordship of Jesus.
     
  6. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    These THREE ALL sang the SAME NEW SONG for they ALL REPRESENT God's Elect redeemed from the earth. These are not three separate groups, as you shall see.

    Okay, please allow me to explain about the "Four Beasts" beasts for a moment for you to think about.

    Many people will think it is ridiculous that the four beasts in the book of Daniel - - the one looking like a lion with wings, one like a bear, and another as a leopard could SYMBOLIZE the rule of Satan throughout earth history THROUGH CARNAL MEN?

    Let me ask you "pointedly" if you also think it is ridiculous that in Revelation a very similar image of four beasts, or living creatures, with wings, one creature like a lion, another like a calf, another with a face as a man, and the fourth like a flying eagle, could be symbolic of the rule of Christ throughout earth history THROUGH HIS CHOSEN ELECT?

    It is not strange or ridiculous at all. Christ is the eternal promise of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Christ is the calf or Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Christ is the Man who would take away the sins of His people, and Christ is the eagle, the protector of all His people under His Wings. These are all representing God's redemption plan for His people from Earth! Selah!

    In case you haven't learned yet, Scripture interprets Scripture, not a man, not history books, not a popular opinion, and most certainly not Church tradition (though I can see that most Christians today may think so).

    See, Satan is A SPIRIT and RULE that CONTRASTS the SPIRIT and RULE of God. Satan's four beasts represent the body of carnal men that he rules over while Christ's four beasts are the body of redeemed men that He rules over.

    The Bible is its own interpreter. Is not the waters that bring life contrasted with the poisons that bring death? Is not the lamb contrasted with the wolf? Is not the good tree contrasted with the bad tree? Israel with Israel, children with children, sacrifice with sacrifice? So no, it's not ridiculous, it's exactly what we would expect if we have been studying the scriptures and know the consistency of God in His perfect design, cryptic imagery, and Biblical harmony.

    God's kingdom construct is SYMBOLIZED by four living creatures, a Lion, a Calf, a Man, and Eagle while Satan's kingdom construct is symbolized by four beasts, a Lion, a Bear, A leopard. God uses Satan's beasts as a judgment upon Israel, which are DEFINITELY not four nations:

    Hosea 13:7-9
    [7] Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
    [8] I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
    [9] O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

    See? God will come against Israel as a judgment as Lion, Leopard and, Bear! It is the foolish who mook things they do not understand.

    Therefore, the four beasts of Revelation 5 is the body of God's people who have been redeemed by Christ who sang a same new song that 24 elders and 144,000 sang! These three all symbolically representing the people Christ has redeemed.

    I am not going to debate about translations. I do not support ASV for several reasons, including the fact that ASV is the favorite of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and is the basis of their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, translated by members of their group and published by the Watchtower Society. That is why ASV wants to keep the 144,000 separate from 24 elders and the beasts based on their doctrine that the 144,000 are Jewish men only.
     
  7. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Have you conceded that you do not have a preponderance of the evidence and come to realize that the strongest likelihood that the 24 elders are representing humans ?
     
  8. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    I believe the four beasts are 4 literal creatures in the presence of God. If scripture tells us something represents something else you can bank on it, other than that is speculation of men and I choose to take scripture literal except where it is impossible to do so.

    Example: Revelation 1:12-16

    Revelation 1:20 tells us seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the candles sticks are the churches.

    In this case Ezekiel 1 described essentially the same four and called them “four living creatures” and “cherubims” in Ezekiel 10. They also were in the presence of the throne as were the beast in Revelation. So I see no scriptural reason to try to make them something other than what we are plainly told they were. In short they are creatures in God’s presence not fictional characters that represent something else.

    I also see inconsistency in making the Lion represent “the rule of satan” in Daniel then the Lion also “the rule of Christ” in Revelation .

    Yes brother I am still learning and so are you.

    Agree


    I disagree!


    The others that take the same view as the ASV are:

    AMP, AMPC, CSB, CEB, CJB, CEV, DARBY, DLNT, ERV, ESV, ESVUK, EXB, GW, GNT, HCSB, ICB, LEB, TLB, MSG, MOUNCE, NOG, NABRE, NASB, NCV, NET, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NLV, NLT, NRSV, NRSVA, NRSVAC, NRSVCE, NTE, OJB, RSV, RSVCE, TLV, VOICE, WE, WYC,

    Jehovah’s Witnesses are hardly to blame for this translation.

    IMHO your answer did not adequately deal with the questions I ask. I disagree with your interpretation just as you do mine. Thanks for your views!
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  9. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Be patient I will get to it as soon as I can. I concede nothing. I am convinced my case is solid just as you believe yours is. Both are circumstantial.

     
  10. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    AMEN! :amen:
     
  11. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The number four represents universality. So the four beasts, correctly known as the Four Living Creatures, of Revelation 5 are SYMBOLIC of the universal church redeemed by God. Each head represents a particular aspect of redemption, and they all praise and give glory to God. They are creatures, a different word from the "Beast" of Revelation 13.

    The number seven represents totality or completeness of whatever is in view. This can be clearly seen as God says Christ stands in the midst of the seven candlesticks. This signifies that Christ stands in the midst of all Churches 'which are represented by these seven Churches' of Asia. Likewise, they are called seven golden candlesticks signifying that they are to be what the Old Testament called the [tamiyd], the 'Continual' or the 'Daily.' They are to be the light of the world shinning continually. This can also be seen in the seven stars of the seven candlesticks (Churches) which are the seven messengers of the Churches, and they are in God's right hand. These are all the messengers of the Churches whom God holds securely and who do His will (the right hand). The truth is, when God talks to these seven Churches, He is not talking to just those, He is talking to all believers and to all Churches. The totality of them which spans throughout time. We today are part of the seven (totality) Churches to whom God gives these warnings and encouragements.

    Revelation 2:7
    • "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches: To Him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
    God is talking to us, and that is why these things found themselves recorded on pages to become scripture. To think that these messages were only to the seven Churches of that literal place in Asia is foolish. They are directed to 'he who hath an ear to hear.' That is all true believers. The totality or complete Church throughout time. And the number seven signifies this totality. It is a Blessing to the faithful Church, and a warning to the unfaithful church. Overcome, and live, forsake God, and He will remove your Candlestick out of it's place. The seven Churches of Asia stand to represent all the Churches. The complete Church from then until our day.

    God is not talking about created beings (angels) here but messengers which are men.

    God interpreting Stars as Messengers, that's a Biblical fact. God warning these Stars or Messengers to remember from where they are fallen, that's a Biblical fact. And so on and so forth. We are Christ's messengers (stars) that brought forth Gospel to the world. Not angels. All I ask is that we know the difference between Biblical interpretation and speculation.

    To those who hath an ear to hear may read the following article on "What Are Cherubim"

    1 Peter 5:8
    [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    Scripture interprets Scripture, selah. Yes, the devil is a lion also.

    Beware of the modern translations.

    I did and you just did not to receive it. The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that!
     
  12. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The problem is that the 24 elders are not 24 literal men. Let me explain...

    The number 12 is the spiritual number for the congregation. For example, 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 sons of Jacob, the 12 pillars, the 12 stones, the 12 tribes, the 12 apostles, the 12 baskets full, etc. And the number 1,000 is the spiritual number for the fullness. For example, 1,000 cattle, 1,000 hills, 1,000 years, etc. So the 12,000 from each family signify the fullness (1,000) of each family or tribe of God's children (12). Or 12 x 1,000. 12,000 from each tribes. Thus the number, a hundred and forty and four thousand (144,000) signify the completeness or whole body of the children of God throughout time. 12,000 x the 12 tribes or families. It is God's way of illustrating through numbers His whole household, which is the entire body of Christ. Not head-count of a specific number of men. It is "ALL the tribes of the children of Israel." It is Covenant Israel. Not Old Testament Israel. Not modern National Israel.

    Now about the 24 elders. The number 24 is a multiple of 12 just like 144,000 is a multiple of 12. 2 times 12 is 24, is it not? If you look up in Revelation 21 to New Jerusalem with 12 foundations of the apostle and 12 gates of the tribes of Israel and their measure equals 144!

    12 tribes of Israel represents the old Testmanet Saints plus 12 apostles represent the New Testament Saints. Together they are 24 elders represents completeness of all Saints, old and new testament, signing a new song. Not 24 Jews. Not 24 famous people. Not 24 people God choose as Elders. This has nothing to do with how hard we work, or how smart we are. We ALL are Elders in Christ because we have the spirit and wisdom of Christ! We all receive the crowns, yet we give it to Christ which is why Christ has many crowns! Selah!

    Revelation 4:4
    [4] And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    Revelation 4:10-11
    [10] The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
    [11] Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Revelation 19:11-12
    [11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    That is why Lord Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords. And we are His kings and priests (lords).
     
  13. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Dude you have way too many errors - it takes too much time to correct all the errors you speak
    The 4 living creatures are divine heavenly beings , you follow strange very strange teachings - you never been to heaven and those who write the folly you believe have never been to heaven so it be impossible for you to say such nonsense
    Gods HOLY WORD tells us that satan was created as a cherub high ranking angel - so you obviously believe satan is not real - that is the danger when you attempt to spiritualize everything from your carnal mind - to you nothing is real it is either symbolic or spiritual and all of it is nonsense

    This rubbish is from the weblink you offer
    upload_2018-4-6_20-54-49.png upload_2018-4-6_20-54-49.png




     
  14. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No biblical rebuttal? Not surprised.

    No biblical rebuttal. Not surprised. Show us the chapter and verse where Bible says Satan was created as a cherub, "the high ranking angel." Satan is REAL but he is a spirit, not created being.

    [/QUOTE]

    No biblical rebuttal. Not surprised.

    You obviously do not know how to refute my position with biblical exegesis because all I hear is private interpretations and opinions coming out of your mouth without scripture support whatsoever. Your carnal mind is clearly indoctrinated.
     
  15. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    You obviously have a serious deficiency in understanding what you read - you are refuted in your delusion that Cherubs are not angels - and the rest of your folly
    You obviously cannot prove that satan is not a Cherub and cannot prove Cherubs are not angels - what you have shown is you simply do not understand scripture - that does need formal rebuttal ;)
     
  16. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are wasting our time. We are still waiting for chapters and verses. Else you do not know what you are blabbing about!
     
  17. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Yes I am waiting on you to prove that satan is not a Cherub !!
     
  18. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Guess you have a short memory problem. Didn't you just read Tony Warren's article on the subject filled with many Scriptures which you considered as rubbish? My position reflects his study, yet you lacks rebuttal with Scripture. The ball is in your court.

    Take your time because you will never offer your defense with Scripture, anyway. Have a good day.
     
  19. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to see if you had any scriptures that prove what you or your rubbish article says is true but you can't do it
    all you have to do is look for scriptures of who satan is and what God gave him when he was created - obviously you have no clue about any scriptures of who satan is and the history of him , but yet you think you can dispute the biblical text with an obscure opinion?
    I challenged you to prove with scripture and you cannot do it - that is all on you !
    You do not know what satan means , you do not know the biblical text of satan creation- that shows you do not understand
    after you prove what you say is true
    I will refute it with scripture -
     
  20. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You heard me. Good bye.
     
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