Was Billy Graham the 24th Elder

[seventysevens]

You heard me. Good bye.

Must be your way of saying you cannot prove what you say

 

[parousia70]

Someone who upholds what is written is not mocking.
Someone who questions or ridicules what is written is mocking.

Do you suppose there is a difference between questioning what is written and questioning someone elses interpretation of what is written?

Based on your response, it seems clear that you are mocking what is written when you say near means far, shortly means a long time and at hand means thousands of years.

 

[Postvieww]

you may present it

Recap

Point #1 Elders and Beasts are in the same category because beasts cannot be redeemed as the KJV implies.

Point#2 Apostles can’t be 12 of the 24 because of timing in Revelation 4 &5



Point #3 Job Description and identification.

The elders and 4 beasts are most often shown in scripture together doing the same things. Things other than what clearly identified believers are doing in heaven.

1. Singing Revelation 5:9

2. Having harps Revelation 5:8

3. Having vials with the prayers of saints Revelation 5:8

4. Elders grouped with the 4 beast and thousands of thousands of angels. Revelation 5:11, Revelation 7:11

5. Making announcements. Revelation 5:5 Revelation 7:13-17

6. Elders and 4 beasts worship together Revelation 5:8, Revelation 5:11-14, Revelation 19:4

7. Revelation 6:9-11 the first identified group of believers shown in heaven are under the alter and told to rest awhile.

8. The second group of believers in heaven are identified by an Elder Revelation 7:14

9. The 144,000 sung before the throne, the elders and the 4 beasts from Mount Zion.

10. The new song of Revelation 5:9 and the new song of Revelation 14:3 are not the same new song or the elders are positively not men. Because in Rev 14:3 no man could learn the new song but the 144,000. Which is it the Elders are not men or the new song from the two passages is a different new song?

Summary Elders worship with created beings, the four beasts and angels, often mentioned together with created beings, the elders do heavenly chores, making announcement just as angels do.

 

[Archmike]

The 24 Elders' identities is God knowledge only. We are not on a "need to know" basis concerning their identities, therefore we need not know. However, I would suppose that those who are one of the 24 Elders, should include those who over the course of human history personify The Living God most closely in their written autobiographical record, recorded in the Book of Life, written from the foundations of the earth. These may be "unknowns" but to God. Considering this then, I don't think Billy would be included. But, who am I to judge......?

 

[seventysevens]

Recap
Point #1 Elders and Beasts are in the same category because beasts cannot be redeemed as the KJV implies.

Elders and Living Creatures are Not in the same category - they simply cannot be as the Elders Do have their own Thrones on which they sit - they Do have their own crowns that they have placed at the feet before the Throne of Almighty God - Nowhere in all of scripture has any other type of Being ever been given crowns and Thrones except for saints that have served Almighty God . There is a very good chance that they represent redeemed saints such as OT saints .
This is a Major Point that you simply choose to ignore because it does not fit your preferred view

Point#2 Apostles can’t be 12 of the 24 because of timing in Revelation 4 &5

Rev 4
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne

It is only the 24 elders that fall down before the One who sits on the throne and lay their crowns before the throne , as the 4 living creatures watch this happen as they are simply watching this take place and are not of those who submit a crown unto the Almighty.
In Rev 5
5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
Jesus is described as the Lamb that was slain and worthy to open the scroll -however it shows the 7 spirits spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
What are the seven spirits of God?
So this is showing some illustration of the Almighty ?

At this time the 4 and 24 have harps and sing a new song about the Lamb is worthy to take the scroll and open it because he was slain and with His blood purchased people from every tribe and language and people and nation and have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve God,
and they will reign on the earth.

Then in verse 11
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
12 In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Point #3 Job Description and identification.
The elders and 4 beasts are most often shown in scripture together doing the same things. Things other than what clearly identified believers are doing in heaven.
Singing
Notice that
every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

It is very significant that every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea and all that is in them were talking , saying praises to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever
It is all creatures that have life are praising God no matter where they are

The new song of Revelation 5:9 and the new song of Revelation 14:3 are not the same new song or the elders are positively not men. Because in Rev 14:3 no man could learn the new song but the 144,000. Which is it the Elders are not men or the new song from the two passages is a different new song?

It is important to note that the singers are not necessarily the 144,000, but angelic hosts and perhaps Tribulation martyrs in heaven. The voice is from heaven, from around the heavenly throne (vss. 2-3). The 144,000 are on earth. It is the harpists of heaven who sing the song. Here we are only told the 144,000 can learn the song, while in chapter 15:2-3 they sing the Song of Moses with the company of the redeemed. The 144,000 are the only people who receive a special mark of protection from start to finish of the Great Trib

But we are not told just exactly what this new song is. It should, however, be related to chapter 5:9 and the new song that was sung by the heavenly choir. Thus it is a song of redemption and vindication. What was seen in chapter 5 as secured for the redeemed by Christ’s death (i.e., that they will reign on the earth [5:10]) has now been realized on Mount Zion (cf. also one further reference to a new song in 15:3).

The word “new” is the Greek kainos which refers to that which is fresh and new in quality, unused, unworn. It can mean new in time, but more than anything, it means new in quality, fresh and vital.
In what sense is this a new song? In the Old Testament there are a number of references to a “new song” (cf. Psalm 33:3; 40:3; 96:1; 144:9; 149:1 and Isa. 42:10). But what is such a new song? A new song is a consequence of a deeper or clearer grasp of the person and works of God so that it results in a fresh and meaningful impulse of gratitude and joy in the soul as it is expressed in songs of praise and adoration. A new song is not necessarily a song new in time, but one fresh with a new response and understanding so that it is sung as though it were new. This new song is somehow related to the new song of 5:4 and to that in 15:3.

What about the clause “And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 …”? The verb “learn” is the Greek manqanw which may have several connotations regarding the learning process. One of these is “to learn, appropriate to oneself … through experience or practice.” Only the 144,000 because of what they will have experienced throughout the Tribulation from beginning to end (having experienced God’s mighty deliverances and victory over the beast) can truly experience the reality and depth of the meaning of the song. Manqanw can have the idea of “to hear deeply.” John in particular seems to use manqanw in the sense of “a deep listening to divine revelation that results in learning” ( John 6:45).