Was Billy Graham the 24th Elder

[Postvieww]

As pointed out previously regarding the 24 elders :
The 24 thrones on which the 24 elders sat indicates that they reign with Christ.

What scripture do you use to show the 24 elders reign with Christ? If your answer is Revelation 5:10 then you have to explain how the four beast which we agree are divine beings reign as well

Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning.

I get the feeling you are ignoring or not understanding my point here.

Presbuteroi (elders) is not used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men

I have answered that. God has a divine counsel or heavenly economy with different ranking beings.

The elders wore golden crowns on their heads and angels do not wear crowns and Jesus gives the Church -Body of Christ various crowns and not to angels that scripture ever mentions

Where is it stated no created being can wear a crown? Yes believers will be given crowns, Jesus wears a crown, the seven heads of the dragon wears crowns, and the locust of Rev 9 wears crowns.

So the 24 human elders are bowing unto Almighty God along with 4 special divine beings God created for His personal purpose - since the scriptures does not tell us precisely what/who they are - and there have been angelic divine beings from the beginning that sing Holy Holy Holy - ....

I disagree you have proved they are human.

Who do you say that they are and what scripture support do you have that supports your view ?

Revelation 5:8-10

Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

We have two out of three groups established as divine beings and your assumption that the elders are human.

Why would we have 24 human representatives in this company of thousands and thousands of divine beings ? Where is the rest of the church?

Look I get it you are not going to agree with me here you have made up your mind but you have not refuted my point. That is the elders and 4 beasts are most often shown doing and saying the same things they are in the company of other divine beings. They sang the same song of redemption about those redeemed on the earth and not themselves.

Mine is just my theory but I believe I have offered much scriptural support most of which is not even addressed head on. If we can’t face up to the 4 beast in KJV claiming to be redeemed I see nowhere else to take this discussion.

 

[seventysevens]

I restated what I said before .. Are you willing to do the same ?
So far all I have seen you say is what you don't think they are or what you don't agree with
I asked you to state plainly straight out what you believe but all you have done is tell people you don't agree with what they say - but that does nothing to reveal what you do believe
Things I have shown gives credibility to that the 24 elders are very likely to be Christians because what scripture says is provable to apply to humans and not any other type of being in all the scripture

Angels do sing , they do talk

Why can't you just create a single post that has the details of what you do believe instead of focusing on what you don't believe ?

What scripture do you use to show the 24 elders reign with Christ? If your answer is Revelation 5:10 then you have to explain how the four beast which we agree are divine beings reign as well


I get the feeling you are ignoring or not understanding my point here.


I have answered that. God has a divine counsel or heavenly economy with different ranking beings.

Where is it stated no created being can wear a crown? Yes believers will be given crowns, Jesus wears a crown, the seven heads of the dragon wears crowns, and the locust of Rev 9 wears crowns.




I disagree you have proved they are human.






Revelation 5:8-10

Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

We have two out of three groups established as divine beings and your assumption that the elders are human.

Why would we have 24 human representatives in this company of thousands and thousands of divine beings ? Where is the rest of the church?

Look I get it you are not going to agree with me here you have made up your mind but you have not refuted my point. That is the elders and 4 beasts are most often shown doing and saying the same things they are in the company of other divine beings. They sang the same song of redemption about those redeemed on the earth and not themselves.

Mine is just my theory but I believe I have offered much scriptural support most of which is not even addressed head on. If we can’t face up to the 4 beast in KJV claiming to be redeemed I see nowhere else to take this discussion.

 

[Postvieww]

Why can't you just create a single post that has the details of what you do believe instead of focusing on what you don't believe ?

I believe I have done that, so I will challenge you to a different approach. Instead of one post with my whole case which can be ignored or glossed over I am willing to do one point at a time. That way it will be much harder to not deal which the topic.

Here goes. I believe the 24 elders are non-human created beings because:

1. Translations that imply the elders and beasts are redeemed and will reign with Christ are poor translations because the 4 beasts can never be redeemed or reign with Christ. Translations that have both elders and beasts singing about those redeemed from the earth and not themselves are more accurate. This is but one evidence both entities are heavenly divine beings singing about someone else.

Deal with this point and I will move on to point 2!

 

[seventysevens]

I believe I have done that, so I will challenge you to a different approach. Instead of one post with my whole case which can be ignored or glossed over I am willing to do one point at a time. That way it will be much harder to not deal which the topic.

Here goes. I believe the 24 elders are non-human created beings because:

1. Translations that imply the elders and beasts are redeemed and will reign with Christ are poor translations because the 4 beasts can never be redeemed or reign with Christ. Translations that have both elders and beasts singing about those redeemed from the earth and not themselves are more accurate. This is but one evidence both entities are heavenly divine beings singing about someone else.

Deal with this point and I will move on to point 2!

4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads


8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:


“‘Holy, holy, holy

is the Lord God Almighty,

who was, and is, and is to come.”

9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever,
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

Think about this for a bit
When the divine beings say
“‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.”

The 24 elders remove their crowns and lay the crowns in front of -probably at the feet of JESUS Throne and say "“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things,

Christians will receive crowns , where in scripture do any other being receive any crowns ?
iirc Christians will lay at Jesus feet their crowns in another part of scripture

I will give more detail later as I have to go for now , but ponder on this a bit

 

[Postvieww]

I will give more detail later

Hopefully that detail will include a specific response to my point #1.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Then Jesus will NEVER come because there are always going to be newborns.

Jesus IS going to come again, but we are called to wait patiently, and not go off on a snipe hunt, "Lo here," and "Lo there."

 

[Monk Brendan]

Then Jesus will NEVER come because there are always going to be newborns.

Jesus IS going to come again, but we are called to wait patiently, and not go off on a snipe hunt, "Lo here," and "Lo there."

 

[parousia70]

Prophecy is according to our time, is exact and on the nose.

Except When the time is near Near means thousands of years, and At hand means far away, and must shortly take place means won't take place for a long long time, Thats when we employ the unwritten scriptural rule, not found anywhere in the bible called "prophesy time means the exact opposite of what is written", right?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Except When the time is near Near means thousands of years, and At hand means far away, and must shortly take place means won't take place for a long long time, Thats when we employ the unwritten scriptural rule, not found anywhere in the bible called "prophesy time means the exact opposite of what is written", right?

EACH generation must live as if Jesus was coming TODAY. Can you imagine if the Word said the time is far away, and said that for 2000 years, and then Jesus came that day??? Do not mock the Word of God.

 

[parousia70]

EACH generation must live as if Jesus was coming TODAY.

Why?
How did Living if Jesus was coming in the 1400's benefit the Christian who lived in the 1400's, only to die a natural death, having their hopes for that coming dashed to pieces?

Can you imagine if the Word said the time is far away, and said that for 2000 years, and then Jesus came that day???

Would that be so bad? why?
For Scripture says:
He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

You can expect Jesus to come tomorrow and be Filthy and Unjust, and you can not care when Jesus is coming at all and be Holy and Righteous... How you feel or what you expect about the timing of the Coming of Christ has no bearing on your salvation whatsoever.

Besides, the Word of God Told Daniel that the time was Far Away and it seemed to work out ok for Him, right?

I honestly don't understand the basis for your objection.

Do not mock the Word of God.

I'm not mocking anything. Where do you get such a notion?

It strikes me that the one whos says God's words don't mean what they say and in fact mean the exact opposite of what they say (such as the person who says near means far and soon means a long time) is the one mocking the Word of God, while the one who says Shortly means literally Shortly and at hand means literally at hand is the one upholding God's Word as written.

 

[DavidPT]

It strikes me that the one whos says God's words don't mean what they say and in fact mean the exact opposite of what they say (such as the person who says near means far and soon means a long time) is the one mocking the Word of God, while the one who says Shortly means literally Shortly and at hand means literally at hand is the one upholding God's Word as written.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Obviously Revelation 20:10 is one of these things that must shortly come to pass. Did it then, meaning the way you are apparently interpreting Revelation 1:1 to be meaning?

Revelation 1:2 indicates that John, who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Did he also see the vision recorded in Revelation 20:10? If yes, then that has to be included in the things which must shortly come to pass. To not include that would be to deny what Revelation 1:2 indicates about John---Who bare record---of all things that he saw.

 

[parousia70]

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Obviously Revelation 20:10 is one of these things that must shortly come to pass. Did it then, meaning the way you are apparently interpreting Revelation 1:1 to be meaning?

Revelation 1:2 indicates that John, who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Did he also see the vision recorded in Revelation 20:10? If yes, then that has to be included in the things which must shortly come to pass. To not include that would be to deny what Revelation 1:2 indicates about John---Who bare record---of all things that he saw.

Of course it did.
What's is your point?

If it didn't, and John was wrong about the timing of that, then How can we trust John got anything right?

And What would you say about Revelation 3:3?
3 Remember therefore how you [1st century Christians at Sardis] have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you [1st century Christians at Sardis] will not watch, I will come upon you [1st century Christians at Sardis] as a thief, and you [1st century Christians at Sardis] will not know what hour I will come upon you [1st century Christians at Sardis].

Do you affirm the Coming of Christ as a Thief Befell those 1st century peoples as Christ PROMISED THEM it would?

Or do you believe Christ was speaking falsehoods to them?

 

[seventysevens]

Here goes. I believe the 24 elders are non-human created beings because:

1. Translations that imply the elders and beasts are redeemed and will reign with Christ are poor translations because the 4 beasts can never be redeemed or reign with Christ. Translations that have both elders and beasts singing about those redeemed from the earth and not themselves are more accurate. This is but one evidence both entities are heavenly divine beings singing about someone else.

Deal with this point and I will move on to point 2!

Agree the 4 beasts cannot be redeemed , but there is no reason for them to be
But there is no evidence that the 24 elders are non-human beings

The fact is that scripture does not clearly identify exactly who are the 24 elders - so we have to approach it from the best supportive scenario we can present based on the facts that we do know

1. we do know redeemed saints will reign with Jesus
2. we do know the angels have not - do not and will not reign over anyone

3. seats in heaven are the same thing as thrones in heaven - the identical Greek word is used for both -when saints are judged - it happens at the bema seat of Christ -also known as the Judgment Seat of Christ -- bema is a raised platform that is elevated above floor level - if you have ever seen in a courtroom especially the big ones like federal supreme courtrooms that seats that the judges sit on are raised a few feet above floor level so that the judges are sitting higher than everyone else - that design is called a bema seat . you may have seen in movies about Jesus that the King sits on a throne that has many steps up leading to it which can be many feet higher

4. In scripture it is shown that redeemed saint will be given crowns - angels or divine heavenly beings are not ever given crowns or said that they wear any crowns or are ever in possession of crowns
5. Crowns for the redeemed saints are given for a specific purpose


Yes the usage of the word 'Them' in place of the word 'us' is correct -
The word " αὐτοὺς " is the Greek word used in Rev 5:10 and is defined as ' They , Them and These

(NIV) 9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

1599 Geneva Bible :
9 And when those beasts gave glory, and honor, and thanks to him that sat on the throne, which liveth forever and ever,
10 The four and twenty Elders fell down before him that sat on the throne, and worshipped him that liveth for evermore, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

English Standard Version:
9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

New King James :
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

If all 28 are divine beings why are only 24 casting crowns before the throne , why not all 28
Now it would not really be a valid supposition to say that just because there can be a divine counsel with different rank of beings that they have crowns -for that be totally unsupported with not even 1/1000 of 1 percent of support to say that is true - to make that assertion without a shred of support for it would be saying it just because you want it to be true - then anyone could say anything ; even that they were eating donuts and drinking coffee as there is equal support of that as there is for a divine counsel wearing crowns

So we have ZERO evidence to support the idea that divine beings wear crowns - and we have to ask the questions of-
Why would non-human beings that scripture has never shown to ever have crowns (cast crowns they do not have) what would be the reason or purpose that they would cast their crowns before throne ?

But we do have an abundance of reasons to show that the redeemed saints are wearing crowns -
they will reign with Christ and by casting their crowns before the Throne is expressing that even though they earned those crowns that Jesus has given them , the crowns are but dust of the earth to them compared to that Holy God that has given them eternal life and made them the family of the Most High God and made them heirs to the throne for eternity.
It is a way of expressing their deepest heartfelt gratitude and appreciation for redeeming them and making them joint heirs to the throne and giving them eternal life.
Whereas if the 24 elders were created as some divine being as the angelic realm of beings - they would not be made heirs to the throne


Each of the 4 living creatures introduce one of the 4 horsemen as the seals are opened.
Even before the seals are opened, there are souls of the saints from OT times to the most recent times in the heavens with the Lord so it is possible that the 24 elders are representing them ,

But as we do know the word Presbuteroi (elders) is not used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men -it is not used to represent anyone other than men and it is that word the scripture does use so we should recognize the usage of that word in scripture because it is applied to the 24 elders and not simply disregard it while attempting to say the 24 elders are some other type of divine being only for the purpose to attempt to say they are not redeemed men.

Since the saints will reign with Jesus and reign over the angels , why would it be so hard for you to consider that the 24 elders can be saints that have gone to be with the Lord in heaven are there singing along side the other heavenly beings ?

I Rev 5:111 -13 - it is describing that there are "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" of angels that are surrounding the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders , as it depicts that the angels are distinctly separate from the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders and only the 24 elders have cast their crowns before the throne .
Then it says that all creatures "which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four"elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever."

So I ask of you to provide scripture that indicates the 24 elders cannot be saints in heaven-

 

[Postvieww]

Thank you for at least addressing my point. We probably are still not going to agree on everything but I do respect where you are coming from on this issue, at one time I would have made the same arguments you are making.

Agree the 4 beasts cannot be redeemed , but there is no reason for them to be
But there is no evidence that the 24 elders are non-human beings

Agree there is no way that beast can be and based on the text of Revelation 5:10 there is no evidence that the 24 elders reign either because the better translation has the Elders saying “they” shall reign, not “we” shall reign

The fact is that scripture does not clearly identify exactly who are the 24 elders - so we have to approach it from the best supportive scenario we can present based on the facts that we do know

Agree 100% with this statement!

1. we do know redeemed saints will reign with Jesus

Agree!

2. we do know the angels have not - do not and will not reign over anyone

Agree!

3. seats in heaven are the same thing as thrones in heaven - the identical Greek word is used for both -when saints are judged - it happens at the bema seat of Christ -also known as the Judgment Seat of Christ -- bema is a raised platform that is elevated above floor level - if you have ever seen in a courtroom especially the big ones like federal supreme courtrooms that seats that the judges sit on are raised a few feet above floor level so that the judges are sitting higher than everyone else - that design is called a bema seat . you may have seen in movies about Jesus that the King sits on a throne that has many steps up leading to it which can be many feet higher

Agree, that thrones and seats are the same word!

4. In scripture it is shown that redeemed saint will be given crowns - angels or divine heavenly beings are not ever given crowns or said that they wear any crowns or are ever in possession of crowns

Revelation 6:2, I would argue that the four horsemen are divine created beings based on Zechariah 6:5

5. Crowns for the redeemed saints are given for a specific purpose

Agree, but you can’t concede they and them are the correct translation of Revelation 5:9-10 and also claim the Elders are the “us” that reign.

Yes the usage of the word 'Them' in place of the word 'us' is correct -
The word " αὐτοὺς " is the Greek word used in Rev 5:10 and is defined as ' They , Them and These

Then since we agree on that part does that not grammatically place the Elders and Beasts in the same position in the text? Doing and saying the same things, both Elders and Beasts referring to the those that reign and are redeemed as they and them?

If all 28 are divine beings why are only 24 casting crowns before the throne , why not all 28

How do we prove an unknown either way? Revelation 5:8 both Elders and Beasts are doing the same things, falling before the Lamb, having harps and handling the prayers of the saints. Which raise another question why would Saints hold the prayers of other Saints ? We do know angels are involved in the answer of the prayers of Saints, Daniel 10:12.

Revelation 5:14 and 19:4 both the Elders and Beasts worship the Lord.

Revelation 4:10 & 11:16 the Elders fell on their faces and worshipped.

Revelation 5:11-12 Elders , beasts and thousands and thousands of angels all make the same proclamation.

Why are these Elders most always budding up with known heavenly creatures to worship the Lord?

It is not proof positive but is evidence they have something in common!

It seems from this post at least your smoking gun is the crowns. I have given several references to entities other than believers with crowns. Rev 6:2 Rev 9:7 Rev 12:1 &3 Rev 13:1 IMHO that is more than ZERO evidence.

My friend I can admit that the Elders could possibly be other than created beings but base on my study I am convinced that is not the case. I have had to change my views on other things in the past and when I see it in the word of God I will do so again if needed.

Can you admit there is just a possibility you might be wrong? I am not sure you can. I hope I am wrong about that.

So I ask of you to provide scripture that indicates the 24 elders cannot be saints in heaven-

I can ask you the same question. Can you provide scripture that indicates the Elders cannot be created heavenly beings? I do not believe crowns, white robes, thrones(seats) or the word “Elders” prove any of that. When we get to my point #2 I believe I can show they are not New Testament saints for sure!

Again thanks for addressing point #1!

 

[seventysevens]

Agree, but you can’t concede they and them are the correct translation of Revelation 5:9-10 and also claim the Elders are the “us” that reign.

same thing applies in those verses as in Rev4

Which raise another question why would Saints hold the prayers of other Saints ? We do know angels are involved in the answer of the prayers of Saints, Daniel 10:12.

Why would saints in heaven now not be praying for people on earth ? Scripture is clear that we should pray for everyone , even pray for our enemies , there are many scriptures that endorse that - there is no reason why they would not be praying for other saints.

Revelation 5:14 and 19:4 both the Elders and Beasts worship the Lord.

Do you worship the Lord ? would you stop worshiping if you went to be with the Lord , everyone in Heaven worships the Lord and that is how it will be for eternity

Why are these Elders most always budding up with known heavenly creatures to worship the Lord?

saints will reign over the angels , they will get along and care for each other - be friendly , the wolf and the lamb will lay down with each other , why should it be that saints would not be loving towards any and all of Gods creations?

My friend I can admit that the Elders could possibly be other than created beings but base on my study I am convinced that is not the case. Can you admit there is just a possibility you might be wrong? I am not sure you can. I hope I am wrong about that.

Of course , neither one of us can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt who they are

Again thanks for addressing point #1!

You are welcome !

 

[seventysevens]

What you need to consider is - our judicial system is derived from the principles taught in the bible - and we have Criminal Court and we have Civil Court
In criminal court you have to have 100% beyond the shadow of a doubt evidence in order to win
In a Civil court case it is different as you need what is called the 'preponderance of the evidence' in order to win - which means that whichever side of the prosecution or defendant has to have the most supporting evidence - the judge will consider all evidence of both sides then compare and determine which side has the best case scenario , which ever is most likely , whichever side has provided the most convincing amount of testimony and/or evidence ,

if you do have a case you will lose if your entire case is simply based on that you disagree with the other side - you will lose - you have to present some convincing evidence that is compelling enough to be considered 'preponderance of the evidence' which tips the balance scales in your favor ,.

The point I have shown you is that because there is NONE reference of any kind anywhere within the bible or even other sources of reference that tells us that anything other than humans ever receive crowns or have ever been known to wear or possess crowns , and since we have multiple irrefutable proofs that saints do wear crowns that Jesus gives them and it is the ONLY reference found anywhere it is tipping the balance scales in favor of the elders being the saints .

Is this saying they are 100% for sure - No nobody will have that level of proof until we are there - but there is no plausible reasoning of any type of data that indicates they are anything other than the saints -
Agree the 4 horsemen if they are real would be some divine being from heaven - I only mentioned that each of the 4 beasts introduced each of the 4 horsemen

 

[seventysevens]

When we get to my point #2 I believe I can show they are not New Testament saints for sure!

What is your point #2 ?

 

[Postvieww]

What is your point #2 ?

Try to have it for you by tomorrow the rest of my day is full.

 

[Postvieww]

What is your point #2 ?

I am ok with your court room analogy as long as you are held to the same standard of proof. Your claim that my entire case is built on the fact I disagree with yours is just one of your attempts to suppress evidence. In court both sides try to impugn the evidence of the other side as well as present their own version of truth with evidence. You must choose, are you prosecution or defense you cannot be one of these and judge and jury as well! For this post I’ll call you the prosecution.



Point #2 the identity of the 24 is never specificity revealed in scripture. The theory I hear most often is 12 Apostles and one from the 12 Tribes. Let’s look at the Apostles as candidates. This whole point revolves around the timing of Chapter 4 & 5 as related to the rest of the book of Revelation.

Opening statement:

1. Revelation 1 is about John’s commission by Jesus to record ; a. the things shown to John b. and the things which are (where in John’s day) c. the things which shall be hereafter ( after this revelation to John), Rev 1:19

2. Chapters 2 &3 John is to write Letters to the 7 churches of John’s day identified by Jesus (things which are)

3.Chapters 4 the scene changes to heaven a vision shown to John (he wrote he was in the spirit).

4. First mention of the 24 elders Rev. 4:4. Upon 24 seats around the throne all wearing white, with crowns of Gold on their heads.

5. We can rule out white as a deciding factor as to identity because white seems to be standard issue attire in heaven. Jesus, angels, martyred souls, and those that came out of great tribulation all shown in white in scripture..

6. Crowns do not prove identity because the prosecution has stated in open court “there is NONE reference of any kind anywhere within the bible or even other sources of reference that tells us that anything other than humans ever receive crowns or have ever been known to wear or possess crowns , and since we have multiple irrefutable proofs that saints do wear crowns that Jesus gives them”. The defense will show that broad sweeping statement to be in error thereby calling into question that piece of evidence, asking the jury to disregard and the judge to disallow.

a. At this point unknown individuals referred to in these proceedings as “elders” wear crowns .

b. Jesus wears a crown

c. Rev. 12:3 the great dragon with 7 heads wore 7 crowns

d. Rev 13:1 the 10 horns of the seven heads wear crowns.

e. Rev 9:7 the locusts wore crowns “like” gold as pointed out by the prosecution.


Exibit #1:

The elders in Revelation cannot be Apostles or anyone from the church because, the timing of the events of Revelation 4 & 5 will not allow it be so.

1. Revelation 5:4 no man was found worthy to open the book, which shows the court Jesus had not yet arrived in heaven since He was later found to be the one worthy to open the book.

2. Since Jesus had not yet arrived from His ascension, He could not have been preceded by any of the Apostles since they were still on earth carrying out their ministries and aiding in the start of the church on earth.

3. Rev. 5:5 one of the elders in question announces the arrival of Jesus to heaven who previously was not there. It is the defense’s position the elder who announces Jesus arrival to heaven to open the books seals cannot be an Apostle or anyone from the just started church for all of the reasons previously stated to the court.

4. Back to crowns, 2 Timothy 2:5 does promise a crown to all that love His appearing. It is the defense position that since the elders in question were already in possession of said crowns at least 2000 years before His appearing they cannot be the promised crowns alleged by the prosecution.


Reminder if the prosecution does not rebut defenses claims all evidence will stay in the record for consideration by the jury and or judge.

I have a Point #3 to present after this one has been litigated.

 

[seventysevens]

You must choose, are you prosecution or defense you cannot be one of these and judge and jury as well! For this post I’ll call you the prosecution.

Can't be judge , jury and executioner ? geez you take the fun out of it

4. First mention of the 24 elders Rev. 4:4. Upon 24 seats around the throne all wearing white, with crowns of Gold on their heads.
6. Crowns do not prove identity because the prosecution has stated in open court “there is NONE reference of any kind anywhere within the bible or even other sources of reference that tells us that anything other than humans ever receive crowns or have ever been known to wear or possess crowns , and since we have multiple irrefutable proofs that saints do wear crowns that Jesus gives them”. The defense will show that broad sweeping statement to be in error thereby calling into question that piece of evidence, asking the jury to disregard and the judge to disallow.

Overruled

a. At this point unknown individuals referred to in these proceedings as “elders” wear crowns .
b. Jesus wears a crown
c. Rev. 12:3 the great dragon with 7 heads wore 7 crowns
d. Rev 13:1 the 10 horns of the seven heads wear crowns.
e. Rev 9:7 the locusts wore crowns “like” gold as pointed out by the prosecution.

In regards to crowns :Yes the elders do have crowns that belong to them - They have the real deal - genuine crowns of Gold---
Not something that has a fake appearance to it , their crown is the genuine authentic crown that they make as an offering to the Most High God and place their crowns in front of the Throne of the Lord God - Consider how important it is shown in scripture to give a true real genuine article as an offering unto Almighty God . It is an offense unto Him to offer a fake makeshift pseudo imitation offering If you have anything of real genuine to give - and only those who do not love God would give a fake imitation offering unto the Creator of the universe

Obviously Jesus is not one of the 24 elders
The fact the elders do sit in thrones specifically tell us that they have authority to reign over someone because only those who have the authority to reign are permitted to have their own thrones

If you are truly honest you will admit that the 7 headed dragon in reading the text, it is apparent that the Context is Figurative; therefore it is not the reality in itself but representative of that reality.

The heads of the dragon are symbolic and not real as an angel tells John in Rev 17 about their Symbolic meaning showing they are not a literal 7 headed dragon and the crowns represent Human kings that were ruling on earth- so with that these crowns in Rev 12 & 13 are actually damaging to your case due to the fact that the crowns only represent human kings as another demonstration of evidence showing that crowns are for human kings

Rev 9 locusts reference of crowns is not evidence of the locusts wearing
crowns as the scripture as the original text
plainly states "were something like crowns" not actual crowns =

Imitation trying to be in opposition of God - in place of - since they are not crowns but merely something like crowns they cannot be qualified to be crowns - but even if they were it would need to be addressed -where did they get them
if they did not get them from Lord God they could not be used as any reference to reign over anything and since we know they did not come from Lord God they are not qualified to be considered simply cause they are not crowns .
They do not represent any true authority to reign and have the value of counterfeit money

1. Revelation 5:4 no man was found worthy to open the book, which shows the court Jesus had not yet arrived in heaven since He was later found to be the one worthy to open the book.

In verse 5-6 show that Jesus was there as the lamb that was slain and he was at the center of the throne encircled by the 4 living creatures And the 24 elders and Jesus proceeded to open the scroll

3. Rev. 5:5 one of the elders in question announces the arrival of Jesus to heaven who previously was not there. It is the defense’s position the elder who announces Jesus arrival to heaven to open the books seals cannot be an Apostle or anyone from the just started church for all of the reasons previously stated to the court.

4. Back to crowns, 2 Timothy 2:5 does promise a crown to all that love His appearing. It is the defense position that since the elders in question were already in possession of said crowns at least 2000 years before His appearing they cannot be the promised crowns alleged by the prosecution.

We have worthy saints of the OT such as Enoch , Job, Noah , Moses , Issac , Daniel and the other OT prophets , King David , Solomon and others from the OT and Jacob/Israel who all could be those wearing the crowns.

We must contend that whoever is the 24 elders are such that they do have their owns thrones and their own crowns which indicates that these individuals have authority of a throne and either do reign or will reign or have reigned over someone -
given this it needs to be assessed who in heaven has the authority to reign in heaven?
And if none is found except Lord God then that indicates that they either will reign on earth or have reigned in the past
Just because we don't know who they are does not take away that we know they have or have had or will have the authority to reign over someone.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I will step in.

Many miss even the basic fundamentals of Scripture. As for example, the New Song that only the 144,000 could sing. All Jews only? Read what they are singing. Please!

Revelation 14:3-5

• "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
• These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
• And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

Now, according to God, only the 144,000 redeemed from earth can learn this new song, and yet we read that the 24 elders representing the Church also sing this new song. Furthermore, this new song they sing states (as does Revelation 14) that they too were those redeemed unto God. But here the information goes further and declares they were redeemed out of every nation, language and people. So very clearly this new song that can only be learned by the 144,000, obviously cannot be only those with literal physical Jewish heritage. The whole idea makes a mockery of sound exegesis.

Revelation 5:8-10

• "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
• And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
• And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

My only question now is, how will you wrest or twist these scriptures to make them not say what they very obviously say? Since it is obvious that no one can show you anything. Only the 144,000 can sing this, and it plainly declares they are from every nation, not just Israel.

The Biblical Truth is that the 24 elders, representing Old and New Testament Saints out of Israel and every nation, not 24 literal headcounts of Jewish men, famous leaders, or church pastors. For example, Billy Graham is not the 24th elder as some claimed.