want to talk about OSAS?

[1an]

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4), the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in Hebrews 10:26-39.

So these certain individuals who fell away certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who truly believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation.

We are either saved or not.

 

[Danthemailman]

The verse does not teach that eternal security hinges on our confession, but yes, if one is not confessing, the sin is not forgiven.

Let's consider, if one commits a sin (which frankly, we all do without even realizing it) and then dies suddenly without having had that prayer of contrition, is he forever lost? No. The verse is a statement concerning the fact that if we do not confess there is no forgiveness. IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HOW THAT FORGIVENESS IS ACCOMPLISHED.

Notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10).

Certain people seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin we are toast!"

Believers speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

 

[Danthemailman]

We are either saved or not.

Exactly.

 

[1an]

Exactly.

I do not think you understand what I am saying.
.

 

[Psalm 27]

I don't think it is sanity as much as comfort. OSAS requires nothing else of the believer... to the extent that they don't even have to believe any more (though clearly most of them do). When we call that into question, it breaks a fundamental support in their beliefs.

I switched gradually from one side to the other and it helped to discuss it and the issues involved and it helped to read about it. Two books by David Pawson and R.T. Kendall were very helpful in the process, one from either side of the argument (I think Kendall's book was a response to Pawson - but it is such a long time since I read either). In the end Pawson's arguments felt like a better fit both Biblically and logically, not that there were then no difficulties.

I’ve been listening to David pawson only this week! That’s so freaky.

 

[Danthemailman]

I do not think you understand what I am saying.
.

How many different ways are there to understand, "we are either saved or not?" There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in various groups of professing believers whether in church or on Christian forums sites.

 

[Psalm 27]

How many different ways are there to understand, "we are either saved or not?" There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in various groups of professing believers.

What if there are genuine believers, who don’t have assurance?

 

[Danthemailman]

What if there are genuine believers, who don’t have assurance?

What would be the basis for them not having assurance?

 

[1an]

How many different ways are there to understand, "we are either saved or not?" There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in various groups of professing believers whether in church or on Christian forums sites.

You are confusing the issue by lumping two groups together.

The Bible warns us many time over regarding the consequences of backsliding. OSAS says that cannot happen. They make a lie of the Bible. I believe the scriptures and so should you.

 

[1an]

What if there are genuine believers, who don’t have assurance?

They are saved. Their anxiety reveals the desire of their heart. Jesus will never leave or forsake such as those. They can rest assured.

 

[Danthemailman]

You are confusing the issue by lumping two groups together.

The Bible warns us many time over regarding the consequences of backsliding. OSAS says that cannot happen. They make a lie of the Bible. I believe the scriptures and so should you.

I never said that it's impossible to backslide. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[fhansen]

To be saved means to be made just, to be justified: forgiven, washed, cleansed, made new creations fit for heaven, now in a communion with God entered into by faith whereupon life in the Spirit is our new way. While no longer under the law we're still obligated to authentic justice or righteousness, which comes the right way now, via grace which naturally flows from that relationship.

But we can leave this way, this state of justice or righteousness that is based on this relationship with God; we can fail to remain in Him-in body and Spirit, in our actions and in our hearts. As our just state is turned away from, so is our salvation.

 

[1an]

I never said that it's impossible to backslide. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

Then you won't preaching OSAS anymore?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The verse does not teach that eternal security hinges on our confession, but yes, if one is not confessing, the sin is not forgiven.

Let's consider, if one commits a sin (which frankly, we all do without even realizing it) and then dies suddenly without having had that prayer of contrition, is he forever lost? No. The verse is a statement concerning the fact that if we do not confess there is no forgiveness. IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HOW THAT FORGIVENESS IS ACCOMPLISHED.

Where in the Bible does it teach that you can not be forgiven by God and yet still saved?
That is what you want to be true for 1 John 1:9 and yet no verse in the Bible says that.
When God says that we are forgiven by confessing our sins in 1 John 1:9, He actually means that.
We see examples elsewhere of men confessing their sins to God. David confessed of his sins of adultery and murder in Psalms 51. We see the prodigal son seek forgiveness with his father when he came home. When he came back, and sought forgiveness, his father said that his son was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.” The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The prodigal son was spiritually dead when he was spending his inheritance on prostitutes, but when he sought forgiveness with his father, he became alive again spiritually. Meaning, he was once spiritually alive before he died spiritually, and now he became alive again spiritually by seeking forgiveness with his father. The father in this parable is the everlasting father (i.e. Jesus). Jesus will one day resurrect his true faithful followers who obeyed Him after the likeness of his own DNA. They will be remade in Christ's lineage or family line; Hence, in a way, He will be their father. Their everlasting father.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Maybe you should actually read this post with understanding.

Genuine faith /belief is one that endures until the end. The Holy Spirit does not allow one to be tempted beyond what they are able to bear but provides a way of escape so that they can ENDURE. See 1 Corinthians 10:13 below:

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Luke 8
1 “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Genuine faith endures until the end and doesn't fall away as in the good soil which produces fruit and perseveres.

hope this helps !!!

Not sure how these verses help you. Before you were saying that king David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder. This means that nobody has to endure or overcome temptation but they can sin and still be saved. Oh, and just producing good fruit if one justifies sin is not going to work, either. In Matthew 7:23: Jesus told those believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin), too. Matthew 7:26-27 says that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So the point Jesus was making in Matthew 7:23 is not believing in the finished work of Christ while one ignores their sin and thinks they are saved, but it was in actually obeying Jesus. Remember, Hebrews 5:9 basically says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. It does not say that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who disobey Him and yet they had a belief alone in Him as the Savior for salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

where does the bible say that " we must accept Jesus " as savior ?

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” (John 1:12).

 

[Kenny'sID]

See post #69. - want to talk about OSAS?

In order to keep this somewhat orderly, you'll need to reply to my post if you have something to say about it, instead of sending me to another post that contains who knows what.

 

[Danthemailman]

Then you won't preaching OSAS anymore?

Why would I do that? Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” (John 1:12).

I'm sorry receive is not accept in any reliable translation. You are changing Gods word to suit your doctrine. In KJV its translated receive or take/took, not accept

2983- strongs
lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Definition: to take, receive
Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

In order to keep this somewhat orderly, you'll need to reply to my post if you have something to say about it, instead of sending me to another post that contains who knows what.

oh boy here you go again......................