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Featured want to talk about OSAS?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by alllivesmatter, Oct 21, 2020.

  1. yes

    25 vote(s)
    44.6%
  2. no

    29 vote(s)
    51.8%
  3. of course

    2 vote(s)
    3.6%
  1. alllivesmatter

    alllivesmatter ta da,EL ROI

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    I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
    Any theories, thoughts, etc?
     
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  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Once saved always saved seems to reduce salvation to a trading card or a hall pass.

    I think the poignant question is, if you are born again by the Holy Spirit - can that life be ended?
     
  3. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If we truly have free will, then there is always a chance that we will lose our faith and forsake God. For one to believe otherwise, then where is free will? Do we just become puppets on a string when we become Christians? Honestly, I do not see any grounds for OSAS among the Church Fathers. If it is there, I am not aware of it. To the contrary, the Early Church was so concerned about members committing grave sins, that for a period of time, a Christian was only allowed to commit one grave sin after Baptism. Eventually this was changed to an unlimited number of grave sins, as apparently Church leaders realized that frail humans were unable or unwilling to refrain from committing mortal/grave sins.
     
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  4. Danigt22

    Danigt22 Well-Known Member

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    Your salvation comes from your heart believing the gospel. The sonship cant be lost, we are seal with the holy ghost. People who dont believe in OSAS diminish the finish work of the cross, and seek their own works instead of grace and mercy.
     
  5. alllivesmatter

    alllivesmatter ta da,EL ROI

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    says Michael Collum:
    "Once saved always saved seems to reduce salvation to a trading card or a hall pass."
    lol and :ahah:
     
  6. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

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    People get confused between being saved form sin and hence death and being saved form the present and ongoing evils one must face in their lives. The former is OSAS. Once you believe Jesus Christ is Saviour and died and rose again then you are saved eternally from death. The latter is an ongoing salvation that occurs as we learn and apply the word of God.
     
  7. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Essentially yes.

    I think that you can only be saved once (per Hebrews 8), but that you may be able to opt out once as well ... if you knowingly decide it's not for you ...
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You don't have to but if I lost my salvation, I'd recommend you work to get it back, as often as you must.

    Why is that a problem? The prodigal son came back, at least once.

    What if one suddenly decided to live in sin, are you saying they won't lose salvation then?
     
  9. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Scripture please?
     
  10. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It seems that few Christians understand what it means to be saved. First up, there is the salvation of the spirit, which is instant, eternal and happens when the individual is born again. Then there is the progressive salvation of the soul, which means renewal of the mind, the freeing of the will to choose God's will and the release from all bondages to sin, self, Satan and the world. This is a lifetime project. Finally, wonderfully, will be the salvation of the body. We receive a spiritual body to match the new, born again spirit. All my age related weakness, twinges, thinning hair, wrinkles and such will go!
     
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  11. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I know people who are born again but have turned away. They live miserable lives. The pleasures of the world are not as appealing but they have no interest in spiritual things. I know a few who who turned away and then came back. It was a hard road for those people, but God granted them a gift of repentance. I do not accept that people "suddenly" turn away. In my experience, there is a series of bad choices, of offences taken and of a careless drift away from the things of God. I know some people who were extremely judgemental of supposedly immature Christians. They are nowhere now. One delighted in quoting Hebrews 6 to anyone who was struggling. He has fallen into the trap that he dug with his tongue. And yes, but for the grace of God, there go I.
     
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  12. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You can use Romans 5:12-19 as a guide.

    Before Christ, there is no way you can lose Adam's sinful nature no matter how much good you do right?

    So after Christ, do you think there is a way for us to lose Christ's imputed righteousness no matter how much evil one does?

    If there is a way, you are implying that Christ's obedience on the cross is weaker than Adam's disobedience in the garden.
     
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  13. Hammster

    Hammster Tell Jabba that I’ve got his money. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That all depends on what’s meant. I’m all for the P in TULIP. But I’m not always on board with what’s meant by OSAS.
     
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  14. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sounds about right, and it's biblical that people leave the faith due to the temptations of the world.

    There is an example in Jesus's explanation of the parable of the sower.

    Luke 8:13

    13 The seeds that fell on rocky ground stand for those who hear the message and receive it gladly. But it does not sink deep into them; they believe only for a while but when the time of testing comes, they fall away
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Tell Jabba that I’ve got his money. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That would only be true if Christ didn’t pray for you, and/or the Father didn’t listen to the Son’s requests.
     
  16. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. My question is whether or not the individual was born again. From my own experience, I know that it is possible to have a false "conversion". I agreed mentally but my heart was unchanged (at a Billy Graham meeting). It was 5 years later that I was born again.
     
  17. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hello @alllivesmatter, if someone claims to have become a Christian, but continues on or quickly returns to living life like they did as an unbeliever (cf in unrepentant sin), chances are more than just good that their "claim" amounts to nothing more than that.

    So, for someone to be ALWAYS SAVED, they must be ONCE SAVED (truly justified/saved by God) first :preach:

    Biblically, when God saves us, He gives us "eternal life" (not temporal or probationary life), and that from the very moment that we first believe :amen: As the Lord Jesus told us plainly,

    John 5
    24 Truly, truly I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    That said, here is a good explanation of what I believe OSAS should be teaching (if it is not), the perseverance of the saints.

    Chapter 17: Of the Perseverance of the Saints
    The 1647 Westminster Confession of Faith

    1. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.a


    a. John 10:28-29; Phil 1:6; 1 Pet 1:5, 9; 2 Pet 1:10; 1 John 3:9.

    2. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;a upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;b the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them;c and the nature of the covenant of grace:d from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.e

    a. Jer 31:3; 2 Tim 2:18-19. • b. Luke 22:32; John 17:11, 24; Heb 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20-21; Rom 8:33-39. • c. John 14:16-17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9. • d. Jer 32:40. • e. John 10:28; 2 Thes 3:3; 1 John 2:19.

    3. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;a and for a time continue therein:b whereby they incur God’s displeasure,c and grieve his Holy Spirit;d come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts;e have their hearts hardened,f and their consciences wounded;g hurt and scandalize others,h and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.i

    a. Mat 26:70, 72, 74. • b. Psalms 51 title with v. 14. • c. 2 Sam 11:27; Isa 64:5, 7, 9. • d. Eph 4:30. • e. Psa 51:8, 10, 12; Song 5:2-4, 6; Rev 2:4. • f. Isa 63:17; Mark 6:52; 16:14. • g. Psa 32:3-4; 51:8. • h. 2 Sam 12:14. • i. Psa 89:31-32; 1 Cor 11:32.
    --David
    p.s. - the Lord Jesus had many other things to say about this topic, including,

    John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
    ALL that the Father gives Me will come to Me and .. of ALL that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

    John 10
    27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    28 and I give ~eternal~ life to them, and they will ~never~ perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
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  18. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Possibly I have the concern you have. It depends on what a person means by once saved, always saved.

    I now understand that if you trust in Jesus, you leave behind trusting yourself and trusting how your free will can do things >

    "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

    But, yes, as Aussie has said > people do not become perfectly God's way, in an instant when people trust in Christ.

    Hebrews 12:4-14 says every child of God is getting real correction. So, I see this means that ones who seem to get saved but then dump out are not getting correction which is guaranteed a child of God. So, I can not guarantee they were truly converted.

    And, to me, Isaiah 55:11 guarantees how God's word will accomplish all He means, with every truly saved person. So, we do not merely get a ticket to Heaven, but Heaven's leaven in us (Romans 5:5) changes us to be and to love like Jesus . . . how God means His word and is able to do His word in us.
     
  19. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Hmm not questions I have. And this gets old. Asking about something you don't understand. One has to fully understand what He died. He died for the sin of the world. Its gone.. takes away the sin of the world. No goat running around.. never has to die again.. no reason to. This is not sins as in lust or murder or lying etc. And then knowing the price He had to pay. It really cost God something. One He forever will have those holes and cut on this side.

    You live in a time bubble and think salvation is some how governed by the laws with in this world? Then we don't KNOW Him. Never seen Him on His throne in all His glory and power. Never seen upfront Christ in His glory and power.. on and on. So whats the reason for you can walk away? Based on what? I am guessing some feeling or hurt or suffering. Well its not based on what you KNOW about Him. So seems its going to be based on the flesh. And its not of this world.

    And how do you undo what only a GOD did? A new spirit.. please share how you undo that.. or give back this "gift" that you can't see hear feel. You look at this by the flesh.. foolishness. How can you leave something you've never known. See being born again born from above..something new was created that was never there. Now part wants to loves to SIN.. yet now something new.. you DON'T want to sin..you want to live holy and please Him.. on and on. <---yet this.. is what you think Salvation is?

    For me to ask such questions... would mean I don't know Him. He first loved me.. He knows me. The desire I have with in is always wanting more and more of Him
     
  20. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yeah, I believe that can happen.
     
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