Walk through if I have it wrong, Ezekiel 38-39

[Maria Billingsley]

Maria, if the events have already happened, a person should be able to walk right through Ezekiel 38-39 and say this happened and this happened and point to the historic events.

If it can't be done, then the events haven't happened yet.
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Although the country does have a security wall between them and Palestinians, the cities themselves are without walls in Israel. A person can freely drive from city to city. They have security, and have a daily routine that they go shopping, kids go to school, tourists line the shops, farming, trade and export, etc.

IMHO- Since the entire book is written by the "watcher of Israel" Ezekiel , it would be reasonable to consider his prophesies as the "watcher" during his captivity related to events during that time. It is reasonable to think that his capture in 597 and his prophetic visions over the next 22 years probably had something to do with the destruction of the temple in 587. It is also a possibility that the fall of the Neo-Babylonian Empire in 539 BCE was predicted. All of this is very plausible.

This is my walk through Ezekiel 38-39.
Blessings

 

[claninja]

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

God is the speaker in this verse. God says of His ppl Israel, So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more. If God says He won't let them pollute His holy name anymore from that point on, can or cannot God literally backup what He says? If this prophecy is supposed to already be fulfilled, and if there are still any of His ppl today polluting His holy name in any manner, this would indicate God can't literally backup what He says, thus basically making Him a liar in the process. Since we know God cannot lie and that God does indeed backup what He says, wouldn't the safer bet be that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled?

How can God fulfill his promise of his people no longer profaning his name? ONLY through Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory

DavidPT, the gospel is not advice or potentially good news. It's good news. It's done. Christ has already reconciled us and the world to God.

I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Hook, but there is a scene with Peter Pan (Robin Williams) and the lost boys having a giant feast. When the lids are lifted off of the plates, Peter pan cannot see the food, but all of the lost boys can see the food and are so exited to eat. Peter pan and one of the lost boys get into a name calling contest and in an act of faith, Peter pan scoops up invisible mash potatoes into a spoon and flick them at one of the lost boys. From this point, Peter pan's eyes are open and he sees the entire contents of the feast.

So to is the reconciliation of the world and us to God. The work was done at the cross, it is finished. but only through Christ can we see it.

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation

Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life

Your sins are no longer held against you. When you remain in Christ, God wipes away all those sins. Even when you do sin, when you are in Christ, they are not held against you when you repent and turn back to Him.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation

Hebrews 9:27 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Those in Christ are a NEW CREATION, no longer according to the flesh

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

God's people can longer profane his name because of Christ through reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins. However, the belief in 2 people's of God or that the church is a building, can cloud the understanding of that promise.

 

[Douggg]

IMHO- Since the entire book is written by the "watcher of Israel" Ezekiel , it would be reasonable to consider his prophesies as the "watcher" during his captivity related to events during that time. It is reasonable to think that his capture in 597 and his prophetic visions over the next 22 years probably had something to do with the destruction of the temple in 587. It is also a possibility that the fall of the Neo-Babylonian Empire in 539 BCE was predicted. All of this is very plausible.

Maria, I would call that reasoning why you think the preterist view is correct.

This is my walk through Ezekiel 38-39.

But... I wouldn't call that a walk through.

An example of a walk through of something that has already been fulfilled, for example, would be explaining in Daniel 7 the four beasts coming out of the sea were the Babylonian empire, the lion ; the Medo-persian empire, the bear; the Greek empire, the leopard; the Roman Empire, the terrible beast.

I walked through each of the four beasts and explained who they represented.

 

[BABerean2]

The 7 years in Daniel 9:27 begin when the prince who shall come confirms the (Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years).

.

 

[claninja]

Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16

Where do you place Ezekiel 39 verse 7, because Ezekiel 43 has this event occurring when God sits in the Ezekiel temple?

Ezekiel 39:7 And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore.

Ezekiel 43:7and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodiesb of their kings at their high places

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Maria, I would call that reasoning why you think the preterist view is correct.


But... I wouldn't call that a walk through.

An example of a walk through of something that has already been fulfilled, for example, would be explaining in Daniel 7 the four beasts coming out of the sea were the Babylonian empire, the lion ; the Medo-persian empire, the bear; the Greek empire, the leopard; the Roman Empire, the terrible beast.

I walked through each of the four beasts and explained who they represented.

Douggg-I was once like you, a futurist. Now I am not. Our lens is different. I just walked it with you and you just don't see it. I understand. We have a different lens. The one advantage I have over you is I already saw it through your lens and now I have been set free with the truth. I challenge you to study the "partial Preterist" view and then take up your arguments.
Blessings

 

[Douggg]

.

Bab2, you are fragmenting. I gave my view regarding Daniel 9:27 the confirming of the covenant for 7 years in the context of Ezekiel 38-39.

Take whatever you believe and present a walk through explanation of Ezekiel 38-39 fitting your view(s) in.

 

[DavidPT]

It may happen that way as you suggest but their is no verse tying Gog Magog to the 2nd coming like Zech shows the LORD comes that day and is king over all the earth that day. If Israel is burning weapons for 7 years it makes no sense that in the middle of the tribulation the antichrist commits the abomination of desolation and starts persecuting jews and Christians. The body collector and all Israel will need to flee and hide for 42 months. So how does this 7 years play out with this in mind?

Of course it makes no sense that the burning of weapons for 7 years and the 70th week of Daniel 9 run in parallel. Plus, the text in Ezekiel 39 indicates the reason for the burying of Gog and his multitude is for the cleansing of the land, for one thing. What's the point of the land being cleansed if a few years later down the road this same land is polluted yet again? Where do we find any passages about that cleansing of the land as well? Ezekiel 39 is not in chronological order from start to finish. Until one grasps that they will likely come to some incorrect conclusions here and there.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg-I was once like you, a futurist. Now I am not. Our lens is different. I just walked it with you and you just don't see it. I understand. We have a different lens. The one advantage I have over you is I already saw it through your lens and now I have been set free with the truth. I challenge you to study the "partial Preterist" view and then take up your arguments.
Blessings

Maria, you did not walk through Ezekiel 38-39. You gave your reasoning that Ezekiel 38-39 has been fulfilled.

You didn't talk about the feast in Ezekiel 39:4, you didn't talk about the 7 months, you didn't talk about the 7 years, you didn't talk about the burying of all the dead bodies, you didn't talk about the house of Israel knowing who the Lord their God was, you didn't talk about the regathering in Ezekiel 39:29 of every one of the house of Israel back to Israel in Ezekiel 39:29.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Maria, you did not walk through Ezekiel 38-39. You gave your reasoning that Ezekiel 38-39 has been fulfilled.

Yes, and that is my walk through.

You didn't talk about the feast in Ezekiel 39:4, you didn't talk about the 7 months, you didn't talk about the 7 years, you didn't talk about the burying of all the dead bodies, you didn't talk about the house of Israel knowing who the Lord their God was, you didn't talk about the regathering in Ezekiel 39:29 of every one of the house of Israel back to Israel in Ezekiel 39:29.

I did, you just don't want to believe it.
ALL FULFILLED IN EZEKIEL'S TIME.

 

[Douggg]

What's the point of the land being cleansed if a few years later down the road this same land is polluted yet again?

Israel, the Jews will not be thinking that way. They believe the NT and Revelation are fairly tales. So they will not be thinking that Armageddon will take place after the covenant is confirmed or at all.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, and that is my walk through.

Maria, I can give my rationale of why I believe the Antichrist will be a Jew... but that is not a walk through of explaining Ezekiel 38-39.

I did, you just don't want to believe it.
ALL FULFILLED IN EZEKIEL'S TIME.

All I am asking is that you explain the different parts of Ezekiel 38-39 as recorded in history.

 

[parousia70]

Israel, the Jews will not be thinking that way. They believe the NT and Revelation are fairly tales. So they will not be thinking that Armageddon will take place after the covenant is confirmed.

What do the beliefs of Gentile converts, or descendants of those Gentile converts, to the Post Christain, Man Made religion of the Babylonian Talmud have to do with any of this?

 

[DavidPT]

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.



How can God fulfill his promise of his people no longer profaning his name? ONLY through Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory

DavidPT, the gospel is not advice or potentially good news. It's good news. It's done. Christ has already reconciled us and the world to God.

I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Hook, but there is a scene with Peter Pan (Robin Williams) and the lost boys having a giant feast. When the lids are lifted off of the plates, Peter pan cannot see the food, but all of the lost boys can see the food and are so exited to eat. Peter pan and one of the lost boys get into a name calling contest and in an act of faith, Peter pan scoops up invisible mash potatoes into a spoon and flick them at one of the lost boys. From this point, Peter pan's eyes are open and he sees the entire contents of the feast.

So to is the reconciliation of the world and us to God. The work was done at the cross, it is finished. but only through Christ can we see it.

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation

Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life

Your sins are no longer held against you. When you remain in Christ, God wipes away all those sins. Even when you do sin, when you are in Christ, they are not held against you when you repent and turn back to Him.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation

Hebrews 9:27 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Those in Christ are a NEW CREATION, no longer according to the flesh

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

God's people can longer profane his name because of Christ through reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins. However, the belief in 2 people's of God or that the church is a building, can cloud the understanding of that promise.

I fully agree that ultimately this has to involve Christ. The problem though, until Gog and his multitude are dealt with first, this indicates God is still hiding His face from the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 39. I m of the opinion Gog and his multitude have not been dealt with as yet. Because if they have aleady been dealt with in the past, why can't one single person prove it somehow? Speculating about something is not the same as proving something. There would at least have to be ancient history records if these events have already been fulfilled. So where are any then?

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

This can't precede the following.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

The judgment executed here is obviously referring to the destruction of Gog and his multitude. Until this judgment is executed first, the way the text reads to me chronologically, once this judgment is executed, then and only then can verse 29 be fulfilled.

 

[Douggg]

What do the beliefs of Gentile converts, or descendants of those Gentile converts, to the Post Christain, Man Made religion of the Babylonian Talmud have to do with any of this?

Put your question within the context of Ezekiel 38-39.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Do you use the same logic for Revelation 19 as well, since it too depicts an ancient war scene, yet involves the 2nd coming? It mentions horses in Revelation 19. Do you think they are all going to be on horseback then, when Jesus and his armies confront the beast and it's armies? Of course you don't. And if those horses don't have to be literal horses, which we both agree they are not, why do you think the weapons in Ezekiel 39 have to actually be literal ancient weapons then?

Revelation 19 symbolically portrays the church. The body of Christ on earth victorious over the beast, which was the Pagan Roman Empire, which was spiritually defeated in other words, converted to Christ in the third and fourth century.

The Second coming in fire at the Great White Throne Judgement occurs over 1000 years later in Revelation 20:9.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 19 symbolically portrays the church. The body of Christ on earth victorious over the beast, which was the Pagan Roman Empire, which was spiritually defeated in other words, converted to Christ in the third and fourth century.

Maybe you see all of that in Revelation 19, but I don't. Revelation 19 is connected to the topic of this thread though, but not in the way you are describing how Revelation 19 should be interpreted. Even if your interpretation of Revelation 19 were correct, I can't see me ever adopting that view since I can't help but seeing the 2nd coming depicted in Revelation 19 instead.

 

[BABerean2]

Bab2, you are fragmenting. I gave my view regarding Daniel 9:27 the confirming of the covenant for 7 years in the context of Ezekiel 38-39.

Take whatever you believe and present a walk through explanation of Ezekiel 38-39 fitting your view(s) in.

Maybe you should have another tag added which says "Fragmenting Only", for all of those who disagree with you.

.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

my rationale

Your rationale is a man made theological system. I choose to read scripture as it is written, to whom it is written, when it was written and why it was written. I can not make up a historical view so that you can be proven wrong. The burden to proof is on you. Keep in mind your theological system changes with the current events so it would be impossible for you to "pin down" your view.

 

[shilohsfoal]

The great tribulation begins in the middle part of those 7 years following Gog/Magog. And yes, to all the persecution, the worst time in their history, for them who do not flee when they see the abomination of desolation setup. Matthew 24:15-21 and Daniel 12.

This is what about talking about you doing fragmentation's instead of walking through from the beginning of Ezekiel 38 to the end of Ezekiel 39. You are pulling things out of context of the whole of the two chapters.

Ive not pulled anything out of context.Just going one versr at a time.
So God says Israel is safe but you say they will be killed,raped,and be led off into captivity.

Who should i believe ,God or you?

Now according to Jesus ,Armeggedon comes first so when Gog invades Israel,Israel will be safe just as the word of God says in Ezekiel.

But your veiws do not line up with Jesus revelation nor does it line up with ezekiel.