Walk through if I have it wrong, Ezekiel 38-39

[DavidPT]

So God says Israel is safe but you say they will be killed,raped,and be led off into captivity.

Good point.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Ezekiel 38:8 NIV: After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

These people dwell safely ,without a care.They have no defences.They are a peacefull people.
Sure sound like its describing a people who have no enemies for a very long time.Sounds like a people such as these people.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

[Douggg]

Your rationale is a man made theological system. I choose to read scripture as it is written, to whom it is written, when it was written and why it was written. I can not make up a historical view so that you can be proven wrong. The burden to proof is on you. Keep in mind your theological system changes with the current events so it would be impossible for you to "pin down" your view.

Maria, you are giving me a speech. Since you disagree with my walk through explanation of Ezekiel 38-39 in the opening post, and you say the preterist view of Ezekiel 38-39 is corrrect instead, all I am asking is that you explain the different parts of Ezekiel 38-39 as recorded in history to show the preterist view of those chapters is right.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Now lets take a look at those who acvompany Gog in his invasion.

Ezekiel 38:5 KJV: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
Ezekiel 38:6 KJV: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Now here is anothet problem.
Israels Neigbors are not with Gog.
Where is Egypt,Syria.Iraq,Turkey,Lebanon,Gaza,Jodan?

The problem you encounter when claiming Gog invades Israrl befote the war of Armegedon is you cant account for any of these.
Why is Egypt not with Gog?
Why do the Lybians,and Ethiopians invade Israel but Egypt doesnt?

Can you show us why Egypt who has a much stronger military and both Ethiopia and Lybia combined does not invade Israel when Gog does?

 

[His student]

Hi His student,
We are almost identical in our view..

I don't want to get into a debate about things. I stated my views pretty clearly even though I don't believe you understood them clearly.

But I don't see how you figure that we are almost identical in our view - seeing that I don't see the Great Tribulation, Armageddon, or the Lord's return anywhere at all in Ezekiel 38-39.

 

[Douggg]

ve not pulled anything out of context.Just going one versr at a time.
So God says Israel is safe but you say they will be killed,raped,and be led off into captivity.

I have never denied verses Ezekiel 38:8, 38:11.

Israel will be living at rest and safely before
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

You say, "Just going one verse at a time." (which verse?)
You have one verse so far in your walk through. Now present the rest.

 

[Douggg]

But I don't see how you figure that we are almost identical in our view - seeing that I don't see the Great Tribulation, Armageddon, or the Lord's return anywhere at all in Ezekiel 38-39.

Okay, I misunderstood your view. I didn't see in your walk through for Ezekiel 39:17-29.

To clarify to you my view, the 7 years following Gog/Magog include the Great Tribulation, but is not mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I have never denied verses Ezekiel 38:8, 38:11.

Israel will be living at rest and safely before
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

You say, "Just going one verse at a time." (which verse?)
You have one verse so far in your walk through. Now present the rest.

Ezekiel 38:8 KJV: After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

God says Israel shall be safe.
You say the same people (who God says is safe)shall be killed,raped and led away captive ..

Are they safe as God says they are or are they in danger of being killed,raped and led away captive as you say they are?

Remember,you are saying these are the same people.
Ps,already did two more verses with questions for you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Following the text of Ezekiel 38-39, walk me through the text of why I have it wrong. And why you may think this is part or all history.
Here is what I say, to happen during your lifetime...

Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

We need to take into account of the destruction of Judea and the wholesale slaughter of its people by the Romans in AD 70.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice...........................

Do you not realize that the above is connected with the destruction of Gog and his multitude?

Do you not see in verse 4 this?---Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel. And in verse 17 this?---even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel

Just because Ezekiel 39:17-20 comes after we already see Gog and his multitude dead and buried, that doesn't mean Ezekiel 39:17-20 chronologically follow after the burying of Gog and his multitude then, as if Ezekiel 39:17-20 are speaking of different events altogether that occur sometime years later after Gog had already been destroyed some years earlier.

Do you think the weapons listed below will be used on the modern battlefield?

Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears,
.

Do you use the same logic for Revelation 19 as well, since it too depicts an ancient war scene, yet involves the 2nd coming? It mentions horses in Revelation 19. Do you think they are all going to be on horseback then, when Jesus and his armies confront the beast and it's armies? Of course you don't. And if those horses don't have to be literal horses, which we both agree they are not, why do you think the weapons in Ezekiel 39 have to actually be literal ancient weapons then?

Armageddon is not mentioned in ezekiel 38 or 39.
Jesus coming is not mentioned in Ezekiel,38 or 39 unless your rewriting ezekiel for ezekiel.
If you are rewriting Ezekiel 39-39 then you will need to add the words armegedon and Jesus.

Birds are always eating dead bodies.Thats what birds do.Every war someone being eaten on.
Where do it say that war is Armegeddon? Where is the beast mentioned?Whete is the false prophet?
Jesus teaches the war of Armegeddon comes before Gog invades Israel. You say its the opposit.
According to you Jesus is wrong.

Jesus teaches the war of Armegeddon is before the invasion of Gog.
Why are you saying the opposite of Jesus? Are you somehow trying to prove Jesus wrong by your understanding?

Ezekiel 38-39 does not say anything about the coming of Christ or the war of Armegedon.
How can I give you a walk through of events that dont exist in Ezekiel 38-39?
Revelation does have both Armeggedon and the invasion of Gog.
Now the question. Why do you teach the opposite of what Jesus teaches?Who side are you on?

The war of Armeggedon and the coming of Christ is not in Ezekiel 38-39. You cant teach something that is not there.
You have been,teaching that Gog will invade Israel before the war of Armeggedon.
Jesus teaches that the war of Armeggedon comes 1000 years before Gog invades Israel.
Why do you oppose the words of Jesus?

Ezekiel 38-39 is about the invasion of Israrl by Gog.Thats all it is.
No Armeggedon and no coming of Jesus.

You never answerd my question.
Jesus teaches the war of Armeggedon is 1000 years before Gog invades Israel .
You teach God invades Israel before the war of Armeggedon.
Why do you teach the opposite of Jesus?What do you have against his order?

You posit some great points shilohfoal concerning Armageddon and Gog-Magog, as they do indeed "appear to be separate events".

First let's look at where Gog and Magog are used in the Bible.
They are used together in just 2 verses of the entire Bible.

Ezekiel 38:2
“Son of adam.
Place! faces of thee to Gog, land of the Magog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophecy against him.

Revelation 20:8
and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive<4105> the nations, the ones in the Four Corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog,
========================================================
There is only 1 parousia and great day of the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY in the Bible:
Armageddon is the Parousia and Great Day of the Lord God Almighty

2 Peter 3:12
Hoping/expecting<4328> and hastening<4892> the parousian<2952> of the day of the GOD,
thru which the heavens being fired<4448> shall be being dissolved/loosed<3089> and elements<4747> by burning is being melted<5080>
[Same exact form of the greek word used in 1 Thess 4:15]

1 Thessalonians 4:15 - for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the parousian<3952> of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep,

Revelation 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which are going-out upon the kings of the whole home-land<3625>,
to-be-together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of the great Day of the God the Almighty.
16 And they together-leading/mobilize/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn<717>
=====================================
There is only 1 final ultimate great Supper/Sacrifice of Yahweh:

Ezekiel 39:
17 " And thou, son of adam! thus says Adonay Yahweh,
say thou! to bird<6833> of every wing, and to all of beast<2416> of the field<7704>:
'be assembled<6908> ye! and come ye<935>! gather<622> ye from round about<5439> on sacrifice <2077>of Me which I sacrificing for ye,
a great Sacrifice on Mountains of Israel, and ye eat flesh and drink blood.

Revelation 19:
9 and he is saying to me: "Write! Happy the ones into the Supper<1173> of the wedding of the Lambkin having been invited"....................

17 And I another Messenger having stood<2476> in the sun,
and he cries-out<2896> in great voice, saying to all the birds<3732>, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither<1205>! be ye being gathered!/sun-agesqe <4863> (5744) into the great Supper<1173> of the GOD.

 

[His student]

Okay, I misunderstood your view. I didn't see in your walk through for Ezekiel 39:17-29.

To clarify to you my view, the 7 years following Gog/Magog include the Great Tribulation, but is not mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39.

OK.

 

[Douggg]

God says Israel shall be safe.
You say the same people (who God says is safe)shall be killed,raped and led away captive ..

I have already explained to you a couple of posts back. Here it is on my walk through, in blue below.


Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

___________________________________________________________________

You have one walk through verse of your own walk through so far -
Israel will be living safely, Ezekiel 38:8

 

[shilohsfoal]

I have already explained to you a couple of posts back. Here it is on my walk through, in blue below.


Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

___________________________________________________________________

You have one walk through verse of your own walk through so far -
Israel will be living safely, Ezekiel 38:8

Ive posted three verses.

 

[Douggg]

Ive posted three verses.

Then kindly incorporate those into your walk through (outline) so far. I don't want to put words in your mouth. It seems to me, you have one line, so far, as...

Israel will be living safely, Ezekiel 38:8


Here's mine again...

Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place, Ezekiel 38:8-11
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here's mine again...
Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place, Ezekiel 38:8-11
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

How about responding to my post #89
I got a lot more to add...........

Post #89

shilohsfoal said: ↑
The war of Armeggedon and the coming of Christ is not in Ezekiel 38-39. You cant teach something that is not there. You have been,teaching that Gog will invade Israel before the war of Armeggedon. Jesus teaches that the war of Armeggedon comes 1000 years before Gog invades Israel.Why do you oppose the words of Jesus?

You posit some great points shilohfoal concerning Armageddon and Gog-Magog, as they do indeed "appear to be separate events".

========================================================
There is only 1 parousia and great day of the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY in the Bible:
Armageddon is the Parousia and Great Day of the Lord God Almighty

 

[shilohsfoal]

Then kindly incorporate those into your walk through (outline) so far. I don't want to put words in your mouth. It seems to me, you have one line, so far, as...

Israel will be living safely, Ezekiel 38:8


Here's mine again...

Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place, Ezekiel 38:8-11
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Why have you not accounted for Israels Neighbors not invading Israel?

 

[keras]

Gog invades Israel. A land that has recovered from a terrible war .Most people believe that war to be Armeggedon.And to a people wjom Jesus has has assembled from the nations.A peaceful people dwelling in the land without the use of walls or any kind of defences.A people who are perfectly safe .

The Biblical story, not overlaid with preconceived ideas:
Gog invades the holy Land, not long recovered from being burned over and depopulated by the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal event, many years before the glorious Return and Armageddon.
The Lord's holy people, every faithful Christian, will live there, trusting in the Lord for their protection. And He does that, by destroying Gog and his army without the Lord's people firing a shot. Joel 2:20

A few years later, the leaders of the holy nation, will agree to a 7 year treaty of peace with the man who leads of the rest of the world, not relying and trusting the Lord, as they should do. Isaiah 28:14-15
The first 3 1/2 years will be peaceful, but at the mid point, the man; by now revealed as the Anti-Christ, will come in force to Jerusalem and sit in the Temple. Zechariah 14:1-2, 2 Thess 2:4
The population of the holy Land will be divided into 2 groups; those who agreed to that treaty and those who rejected it. Daniel 11:32, Revelation 12:6-17
3 1/2 years, exactly 1260 days later, Jesus will Return and destroy the AC's army and chain him up. Revelation 19:11-21

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Biblical story, not overlaid with preconceived ideas:
Gog invades the holy Land, many years before the glorious Return and Armageddon.

Poppycock...........please stop with this unbiblical man-made concoction......



.

 

[claninja]

I fully agree that ultimately this has to involve Christ.

Good, at least we agree on the most important part

The problem though, until Gog and his multitude are dealt with first, this indicates God is still hiding His face from the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 39.

Depends on the identity of Gog and his multitude, right? Who is Gog?

Ezekiel 38:2 Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him

Ezekiel 39:1 And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal

Did Gog exist during the time of Ezekiel? Is Gog solely a future human ruler? Is Gog Satan? Is Gog the beast? Is Gog the antichrist?

Are there scriptures that help us identify Gog, outside of Ezekiel?

Because if they have aleady been dealt with in the past, why can't one single person prove it somehow?

Depends on the identity of Gog, right? We would probably need to agree on the identity before we can somehow attempt to "prove it".

Speculating about something is not the same as proving something.

Absolutely agree. So let's not speculate if we can help, but use scripture to interpret scripture.

If we look first at Ezekiel 38, we see Gog, of Magog, will lead a horde that covers the land against God's people. Then we see in Revelation, that after the 1000 years, Satan leads an army from the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, across the plain of the earth against God's people. With this, we can see that Satan has to do with Gog and Magog and hordes of armies. Ezekiel has Gog as the leader, and revelation has Satan as the leader. Thus, this would be evidence that Satan is Gog or related to Gog.

Ezekiel 38:2,8-9 Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him. After many days you will be mustered. In the latter years you will go against the land that is restored from war, the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, all of them. You will advance, coming on like a storm. You will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your hordes, and many peoples with you.

Revelation 20:7-9 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them

Using Peter and Paul we can see that the destruction of Satan was still future to them in the first century.

1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

2 thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
________________________________________________________________________________

When we turn to Ezekiel 39 we see that God brings Gog from "uttermost" parts of the North against Israel, and on the mountains of Israel is where God strikes them down to be given to the Birds and Beasts. This is mentioned in Revelation, where Jesus defeats the Beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies. Thus, this would be evidence that Gog is related to the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies.

Ezekiel 39:2-4,17 And I will turn you about and drive you forward, and bring you up from the uttermost parts of the north, and lead you against the mountains of Israel. Then I will strike your bow from your left hand, and will make your arrows drop out of your right hand. You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your hordes and the peoples who are with you. I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord God: Speak to the birds of every sort and to all beasts of the field: ‘Assemble and come, gather from all around to the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you

Revelation 19:15-19 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rulec them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave,d both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

We can see that Jesus defeats them (the beast, the kings of the earth, and their amries) with the Gospel in revelation.

Revelation 19:15,21 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

We can see that the kings of the earth and rulers set out against God, through the crucifixion of Christ.
Acts 4:25-28 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,
“‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’—for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place

And through the work of the Cross and Gospel, God disarmed and triumphed over the rulers and authorities. He destroyed the works of Devil. He bound the strong man.

Colossians 2:14-15 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

1 John 3:9 The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil

We can even see the words of eternal life in Ezekiel 39.

Ezekiel 39:19 And you shall eat fat till you are filled, and drink blood till you are drunk, at the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you

John 6:54-56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

______________________________________________________________________________

So what does Ezekiel 38-39 this point to?

1.) the identity of Gog
As revealed by revelation, Gog is associated with Satan, the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies.

2.) The triumph of God over Gog through his sacrifice
Jesus, who the kings and rulers of the earth set out against through the power of satan, as predestined by God, disarmed and triumphed over them through the Gospel.

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

This can't precede the following.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

I actually agree.

I believe the judgment of Gog began at the cross

John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The holy spirit was poured out on Israel after the cross.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

 

[Douggg]

How about responding to my post #89
I got a lot more to add...........

I didn't notice an outline walk through of Ezekiel 38-39... for me to respond to.

I gave my walk through outline of Ezekiel 38-39. If you think I am wrong, then provide your walk through outline - incorporating whatever beliefs you hold. Then I can look at it.

Give me something like this.

Israel will be living at rest and safely before Gog/Magog takes place, Ezekiel 38:8-11
Gog/Magog takes place - Ezekiel 38
Gog's army is destroyed - Ezekiel 39:4
Then the cleanup, followed by 7 years - Ezekiel 39:9-16
Then those 7 years (the great tribulation takes place during the second half of the 7 years)
Then Armageddon - Ezekiel 39:17-20
Jesus returned to earth - Ezekiel 39:21-29.

 

[Douggg]

Why have you not accounted for Israels Neighbors not invading Israel?

Because I don't think every single participant country can be determined at this point.