Views on 1 John 4:1-3 and 2 John 1:7-8 ??

Biff

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1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7-8 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

My question is: Is this saying what it sounds like???
A. In other words - Do you think that this has to do with His first coming/appearing only???
B. Or does it have to do with His second coming/appearing as well???

Thank you,
Biff
 
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Biff said:

...does it have to do with His second coming/appearing as well?

Yes. For Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but was resurrected in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why his tomb was empty (Matthew 28:6) and why he still had the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven, for Jesus remains our fully-human mediator (1 Timothy 2:5); he will remain our fully-human high priest forever (Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like us (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Beware the Gnostic lie that Christ isn't in the flesh, for it will be one of the key deceptions of the coming Antichrist (1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7). The Gnostics mistakenly think that flesh is evil in itself, and that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39) and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God himself as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

We know that Adam and Eve were flesh because they were the progenitors of the human race alive today, and we know that Adam and Eve were immortal before they fell into sin because it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. So the future resurrection and changing of the saved into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will simply be God allowing all of saved humanity to partake of the original, very good, immortal flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also beware the more-general Gnostic lie that the created, physical universe is evil in itself and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good, for this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator YHWH as some sort of evil, tyrant god, who Gnosticism says created the physical universe only as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, who Gnosticism says by some accident fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe and became trapped within physical bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that the physical world was originally created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14) and that God would ultimately come down out of heaven to live with man forever on a new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8).

And on the new earth all of saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to saved humans, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. All of saved humanity will be able to live in an earthly paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and all their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
 
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Biff

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Gentlemen,

1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2 John 1:7-8 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

What I was hoping to hear was that if what I had quoted in 1 & 2 John (above) are right, then does this apply to the way He is now (Seated in the Flesh)?

In other words, is He in heaven right now seated next to God "IN HIS GLORIFIED FLESH"??? Or is He not???

If so - Will He come back in some mysterious spiritual body the next time and take us all home Before the Great Trib., OR will He come with "His own VISIBLE body", nail holes and all, at the end of the Great Trib. as He said He would in Matthew 24?

Biff
 
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trumpeter

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Antichrists deny the incarnation of Jesus who came in the flesh at his first coming. When he ascended to the right hand of the Father he had a glorified body. When Jesus returns in his glorified body for the church, he will change our mortal bodies into glorious bodies like he has. People will continue to deny Christ came in the flesh until he returns to set up his earthly kingdom.
 
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busdriver72

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What I was hoping to hear was that if what I had quoted in 1 & 2 John (above) are right, then does this apply to the way He is now (Seated in the Flesh)?

In other words, is He in heaven right now seated next to God "IN HIS GLORIFIED FLESH"??? Or is He not???

If so - Will He come back in some mysterious spiritual body the next time and take us all home Before the Great Trib., OR will He come with "His own VISIBLE body", nail holes and all, at the end of the Great Trib. as He said He would in Matthew 24?

Biff

I'm sorry, Biff....I misunderstood what you were getting at.
He will return in the same state in which He ascended. Unfortunately, we are not told a whole lot about it in the Scriptures, but we are told some things. In the book of Matthew, in chapter 24:39 Jesus encourages His disciples that He isn't a ghost (spirit), but that He is real. In fact He says He has "flesh and bones." Yet, despite the fact he had "flesh and bones" after His resurrection, He seemed to have the ability to vanish and re-appear at will, something that normal flesh cannot do. They were able to touch Him, He was able to eat, so He was truly tangible...flesh and bone in some form or fashion. He later ascended into heaven...can normal. human flesh and blood co-exist at the right hand of the Father? Probably not. In 1st Corinthians 15 Paul sort of dealt with this, yet his answer still leaves us in mystery. It will be a body that God is pleased to give and provide. He goes on to explain that all "flesh" is not the same, and later says we are raised a "spiritual body," which in our minds is a contradiction. We tend to think if it has a body it is not spiritual. In v.49 he writes "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man." A few verses later he writes "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed." Note the word "mystery." This is something that God will do...we will be given form and substance that is pleasing to Him...by His power....by His glory....however, the exact nature of it is a mystery to us. It is beyond our ability to fully comprehend while we are in this flesh.
 
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Biff

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Hi all,

I was basically thinking along these lines....

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Philippians 2:7-10 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Biff
 
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trumpeter

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Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

I hope everyone realizes Jesus returning "in like manner" is the second coming at the end of the Tribulation and not the rapture. He left the Mount of Olives and will return to the Mount of Olives in Israel; Acts 1:12; Zec 14:4; Mt 24 30. In the rature the church meets him in the air, 1 Thess 4:17.
 
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dana b

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1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7-8 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

My question is: Is this saying what it sounds like???
A. In other words - Do you think that this has to do with His first coming/appearing only???
B. Or does it have to do with His second coming/appearing as well???

Thank you,
Biff

I myself think that these verses were written for us to say that antichrists will not be able to admit that Jesus Christ was born the son of God in the flesh, died and was then resurrected. They can't admit that similarily to how in movies a vampire can't tolerate seeing the cross. They can't believe that or admit it.

If an antichirst were to admit that Jesus, born a physical man of the flesh, was killed and then came to life again then they would become an instant believer and therefore become a Christian. This is the main physical miracle supporting Christianity throughout the ages. But these verses are saying that an antichrist is a denyer that Jesus was killed and then resurrected.

I don't think that there is any intention here to describe how or in what form Jesus would reappear to us in his future return for Judgment Day.

Thats just my immediate opinion. Show me different if you can. I love to learn.
 
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busdriver72

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"AntiChrist" will take many forms. "Anti" in our most common use refers to that which is "against", but "anti" can also be used in the sense of "in place of" or a substitute for. I agree with what you said about the antiChrist's denial of a physical coming...but the gnostics of John's day....as hard as it is to believe....considered themselves to be Christians, but thought they were the "enlightened one"....the "gnostics"...the ones with a knowledge that only they had and had not been revealed to anyone else. (Hmmm perhaps Charles Taze Russell and Joseph Smith might fall under the gnostic catagory.)
The antiChrists have been around a long, long time.

I don't think those verses really had anything to do with Jesus exact form and or nature as far as His return goes...I agree. But since that is what he was asking, I thought I'd give a shot at an answer. Just trying to be helpful. :wave:
 
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busdriver72

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Question for Dana

What prominent person in the Bible do you consult to find out anything and everything about the corporate church? What will His appearing to the church be like; who do we consult for church doctrine?

Ummm, that's a different topic. In the internet-forum world that's called "hi-jacking" a thread. It would probably be best to start a different thread on those questions.

Dear Busdriver 72,

Like all the word of God I believe that these 2 Scriptures are telling us not to believe those who say that Jesus did not come in the flesh... not only that, but that such belief is from the spirit of antiChrist.

Biff

I agree.:thumbsup:
 
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Biff

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To anyone and everyone,

Not only do I say:
Like all the word of God I believe that these 2 Scriptures I quoted are telling us not to believe those who say that Jesus did not come in the flesh... not only that, but that such belief is from the spirit of antiChrist.

But here is why -- "Because if Jesus came in flesh, and died in the flesh, then He is coming again In The Flesh (where every eye will see Him)."
The reason I say this is because of scriptures as, Hebrews 9:20-22 and Acts 1:9-11.

Thank you,

Biff
 
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My question is: Is this saying what it sounds like???
A. In other words - Do you think that this has to do with His first coming/appearing only???
B. Or does it have to do with His second coming/appearing as well???

Thank you,
Biff

Biff,

Neither.
When Christ appeared to Thomas, he got past the lock doors and came in like a Ghost, but Thomas was able to physically touch him.

God is Spirit and he had to become like one of us.
So he made him self seem physical.

Just like Paul made him self seem like Jew, to win the Jews.

"To those under the law he became like one under the law... To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."
(1 Corinthians 9:20-23)

Maybe the gnostic Christians were on to something, and it was contrary to the RCC theory so they murdered free thinkers in the name of Love (God).

John 6:45-
They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Peace.
 
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"AntiChrist" will take many forms. "Anti" in our most common use refers to that which is "against", but "anti" can also be used in the sense of "in place of" or a substitute for. I agree with what you said about the antiChrist's denial of a physical coming...but the gnostics of John's day....as hard as it is to believe....considered themselves to be Christians, but thought they were the "enlightened one"....the "gnostics"...the ones with a knowledge that only they had and had not been revealed to anyone else.

As hard as it is to believe the gnostic Christians were more Christian than those who opposed them. And the term gnostic is about as abstract as protestant.

The gnostics Christians were for Christ so... Anti doesn't describe them.
Anti is what it is, "against".

I think you don't know what your talking about.

Peace be to you.
 
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I myself think that these verses were written for us to say that antichrists will not be able to admit that Jesus Christ was born the son of God in the flesh, died and was then resurrected. They can't admit that similarily to how in movies a vampire can't tolerate seeing the cross. They can't believe that or admit it.

If an antichirst were to admit that Jesus, born a physical man of the flesh, was killed and then came to life again then they would become an instant believer and therefore become a Christian. This is the main physical miracle supporting Christianity throughout the ages. But these verses are saying that an antichrist is a denyer that Jesus was killed and then resurrected.

I don't think that there is any intention here to describe how or in what form Jesus would reappear to us in his future return for Judgment Day.

Thats just my immediate opinion. Show me different if you can. I love to learn.
While the Muslims believe that Jesus came in the flesh, born physically by the virgin. And as the ONE and ONLY Messiah, the Christ.

These verses would elude to them NOT being antichrist. Most of the Scripture's I recall irt to those antichrist's refer to the denial of Jesus's Christhood.....however, the forged 20% of the Qraan is very antichrist, speaking of killing or converting Christians and Jews.

Seems they are also awaiting His Word as the Judgment of the ALmighty.:prayer:
 
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As hard as it is to believe the gnostic Christians were more Christian than those who opposed them. And the term gnostic is about as abstract as protestant.

The gnostics Christians were for Christ so... Anti doesn't describe them.
Anti is what it is, "against".

I think you don't know what your talking about.

Peace be to you.
Buhdism(fig tree), New Age, Sceintology, hinduism, and many factions of those religions are gnostic in their teaching. These faiths, along with Eastern Star and many others are waging spiritual warfare for the souls of Christians Muslims and Jews.
 
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busdriver72

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Anti is what it is, "against".

I think you don't know what your talking about.
What is clear in John's writing is that whoever he was writing about...those who deined that Jesus had come in the flesh...were once a part of their fellowship but weren't anymore..and he says that the spirit of such things is the spirit of antiChrist...it is either against Christ or attempts to re-define or replace Him.
"AntiChrist" - from the Greek anticristo.
"Anti" serves two functions in the Greek language that the New Testament was written in:
- against
- instead of.
An antiChrist could indeed be someone who
- is opposed to Christ
- or claims to Be Him or equal to Him...or His replacement, etc, or re-defines Him into being someone other than the true one....thus replacing the true one.
 
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