My view on end-time prophecy symbols and Christian salvation in light of the book of Revelation

[dmitry677]

I want to share with you what I think the main symbols of Revelation mean, because I haven't really heard anyone preaching it like that. There is nothing harsh ethically or otherwise in it. Please comment on what you think, and whether you think it fits with the rest of the Bible.

Basically, I think that when it says "buy and sell" in chapter 13, it means to teach teachings that are untrue, just as in the Prophets a prophet mentioned buying wine and milk "for free" in the sense of receiving true teachings, the truth here being God -- the only uncreated being in existence, while everything is something created.

And just as for 6 days God created everything, so also all creation can be symbolized by a six, while He Himself -- by a seven -- the eternal Day for rest, the eternal Sabbath. And so, all the "created truth", can be represented by a six.

And in the end times, whoever will receive a false teaching, and believe it, would receive the spirit of faith in something created yet not true. While the true believers would continue to have the Holy Spirit of faith in things that are true (Spirit is the spirit of faith in truth).

And this is where the Revelation mentions image of the beast. Image is something worshipped. And if the image speaks, it means it's a human being, or the words of this human being, which are received by people instead of the words of Christ. These other words can't find justification in the Bible that is.

But not only the teaching of people can be something created -- our goods deeds can be too. They are after all the creations of our hands, even though they come with the help of God. And so they cannot be worshipped either, aka believed in for salvation. I.e. we do them knowing they save because of Matthew 25, yet after we worked them, we don't remember them and don't trust in them as the foolish farmer in his crop. We forget them like the right hand mustn't know what the left hand does, and we just say: we did what we had to, we are unprofitable slaves of God. The danger from these works come because they don't have eyes to see or ears to hear, and so trusting in them for salvation would seem to only make God angry -- provided God is the same God as He was in the Old Testament.

So what are we left with, is to only believe for salvation in the presence of the Holy Spirit in us, which *is* the Blood of Jesus, because the "blood of every creature is its life", yet the Spirit is Eternal Life -- "my Words are Spirit and they are Life". When our heart has the Holy Spirit, the inner, shabby, sin-nature-ridden garments of our heart are made clean. Yet if guilty conscience shipwrecks our faith, the wine of the Spirit flows out through the holes, burnt by these hot coals (a seared conscience just doesn't feel them, yet the effect on our wine sack is the same). And we become naked, and our shame can be seen -- the Wedding Garment gone. Yet, if we have not trusted in our grapes for salvation (meaning the works of Matthew 25) and haven't been lucky to go the Lord with the oil of the Spirit filling to the brim the lamp of heart, these grapes will provide the last washing of the Blood of Jesus at the Great Judgement ("the blood of grapes"). But if we do die in the Lord, we go to heaven right away, as it's written (I'm paraphrasing): they who have the Spirit of faith to the brim, because of the wine sack without holes and works of praise to the Lord, shall not come to the Judgment, but have already passed from death to life.

 

[Water and Fire]

Subscribing

 

[RandyPNW]

I want to share with you what I think the main symbols of Revelation mean, because I haven't really heard anyone preaching it like that. There is nothing harsh ethically or otherwise in it. Please comment on what you think, and whether you think it fits with the rest of the Bible.

Basically, I think that when it says "buy and sell" in chapter 13, it means to teach teachings that are untrue, just as in the Prophets a prophet mentioned buying wine and milk "for free" in the sense of receiving true teachings, the truth here being God -- the only uncreated being in existence, while everything is something created.

And just as for 6 days God created everything, so also all creation can be symbolized by a six, while He Himself -- by a seven -- the eternal Day for rest, the eternal Sabbath. And so, all the "created truth", can be represented by a six.

And in the end times, whoever will receive a false teaching, and believe it, would receive the spirit of faith in something created yet not true. While the true believers would continue to have the Holy Spirit of faith in things that are true (Spirit is the spirit of faith in truth).

And this is where the Revelation mentions image of the beast. Image is something worshipped. And if the image speaks, it means it's a human being, or the words of this human being, which are received by people instead of the words of Christ. These other words can't find justification in the Bible that is.

But not only the teaching of people can be something created -- our goods deeds can be too. They are after all the creations of our hands, even though they come with the help of God. And so they cannot be worshipped either, aka believed in for salvation. I.e. we do them knowing they save because of Matthew 25, yet after we worked them, we don't remember them and don't trust in them as the foolish farmer in his crop. We forget them like the right hand mustn't know what the left hand does, and we just say: we did what we had to, we are unprofitable slaves of God. The danger from these works come because they don't have eyes to see or ears to hear, and so trusting in them for salvation would seem to only make God angry -- provided God is the same God as He was in the Old Testament.

So what are we left with, is to only believe for salvation in the presence of the Holy Spirit in us, which *is* the Blood of Jesus, because the "blood of every creature is its life", yet the Spirit is Eternal Life -- "my Words are Spirit and they are Life". When our heart has the Holy Spirit, the inner, shabby, sin-nature-ridden garments of our heart are made clean. Yet if guilty conscience shipwrecks our faith, the wine of the Spirit flows out through the holes, burnt by these hot coals (a seared conscience just doesn't feel them, yet the effect on our wine sack is the same). And we become naked, and our shame can be seen -- the Wedding Garment gone. Yet, if we have not trusted in our grapes for salvation (meaning the works of Matthew 25) and haven't been lucky to go the Lord with the oil of the Spirit filling to the brim the lamp of heart, these grapes will provide the last washing of the Blood of Jesus at the Great Judgement ("the blood of grapes"). But if we do die in the Lord, we go to heaven right away, as it's written (I'm paraphrasing): they who have the Spirit of faith to the brim, because of the wine sack without holes and works of praise to the Lord, shall not come to the Judgment, but have already passed from death to life.

I find your "interpretation" of these symbols interesting and valid--they just aren't the literal meaning of the Scripture passages you refer to. Still, we can learn from this kind of symbolic interpretation.

As far back as the Early Church Fathers, Origen used symbolic interpretation to buttress his more literal interpretations. In other words, they worked together to decipher the true meaning of the passages.

So, if we see wine as representative of Jesus' purifying blood, we can't go wrong, even if the wine is referring to something else, eg joy in the Lord. We know God's joy comes through the blood of Christ.

As far as the "image of the Beast," that may involve a symbolism that will not be fully understood until the time comes. We can simply understand it in principle, that anything coming from the Antichrist must be rejected and not worshiped. His appearance will be obvious to the Christian who has "eyes to see."

The symbolism of numbers usually has an obvious association with something in order to understand its symbolic reference. 7 is used often under the Law to represent the completion of redemption, just as God completed Creation in 6th days and rested when it was finished on the 7th day.

At the same time we know that when John mentions 7 churches in the book of Revelation he is referring to the literal number "7." It is obviously a number of churches selected for their symbolic allusion to redemption.

"Buying and selling" is a literal reference to control Antichrist will exercise within his domain, which is likely Europe--probably not world-wide. However, a lone superpower would control trade world-wide, as well. So the economy of the world may be controlled by this "mad man."

If Antichrist wishes to control the world market, he would also want to control teaching. He will be king propagandist and king deceiver, of both the world and the elect. So I don't fault you for interpreting this "market control" with "teaching control."

Anyway, these things have been discussed. You either haven't been here long enough or simply didn't read the corresponding threads.

 

[Water and Fire]

I would like to see an example of your working out the intpretation of one of these symbols. Most people treat the book of Revelation, like it was written by Nostradamus.

 

[dmitry677]

"Buying and selling" is a literal reference to control Antichrist will exercise within his domain, which is likely Europe--probably not world-wide. However, a lone superpower would control trade world-wide, as well. So the economy of the world may be controlled by this "mad man."

If Antichrist wishes to control the world market, he would also want to control teaching. He will be king propagandist and king deceiver, of both the world and the elect. So I don't fault you for interpreting this "market control" with "teaching control."

Actually, I wasn't confusing teaching control with market control as you put it. I meant that the market itself is only symbolic -- the market of teachings about salvation, where people "buy" by receiving certain teachings and "sell" by teaching them.

But I believe that there were at some points in history moments where the market control would be used as a tool to enforce control of the teaching market and make it sell only certain things and not other. For example there already was an antichrist at one point (it even says plainly in the Bible: "and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come") -- a caesar that made it a decree that no one buys or sells except they who worship him by burning him incense. People would be given special certificates that prove they worshipped caesar and it would let them buy and sell. Here we see how the false teaching that caesar is God was enforced in the teaching market by enforcing rules about non-symbolic market.

And I guess this may happen again, yet this is not the point I was trying to make. But following this route, I would like to add that soon there will be electronic currency and it is something that can be controlled as per how it is used. And some people -- those who disagree with certain things -- can be just switched out of using it altogether, being left with no means to participate fully in the socio-economic system. I watched a recent youtube video of Snowden even advocating the adoption of the Nostr protocol to enable people to trade despite of the future restrictions.

As for what you said the antichrist is yet to come, I believe it already came. There were several of them. All of them don't have the Father and the Son because they have not the Son -- the words of the Son are not in them, but their own.

 

[dmitry677]

I would like to see an example of your working out the intpretation of one of these symbols. Most people treat the book of Revelation, like it was written by Nostradamus.

I struggling to understand where I have gone wrong based your comment. Please help me. From what I see is I have based myself purely on the Bible in my post. For example when I have stated that I believe that 666 only symbolizes a seal of the spirit of faith for salvation in something that doesn't save, I have shown how 6 is a symbol of everything created. The only problem I see is that I haven not been very deep and thorough in my explanation. If this is it, then I will use this as an opportunity to amend my wrong and add that the triple is because its written that the "three cords are not easily broken", yet it is the spirit -- and not the flesh, or something physical -- that is stronger. So, the triple can be taken to mean that the Bible speaks here of a spirit. And because we read that the unlucky people of the chapter 13 of Revelation will have the mark on their hands and on their head, a parallel can be drawn from when the Bible says: "Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm". And because the heart is something a man believes with: "For with the heart one believes" and because of the words "having the same spirit of faith", we can see how we believe by a "spirit of faith", which brings us to understand that a spirit of faith can be either a created spirit that seals a person with the seal of this world, or the Spirit of God, with whom the believers are sealed.

 

[Water and Fire]

Pro 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

 

[RandyPNW]

Actually, I wasn't confusing teaching control with market control as you put it. I meant that the market itself is only symbolic -- the market of teachings about salvation, where people "buy" by receiving certain teachings and "sell" by teaching them.

Yes, I know. I was just disagreeing with your "symbolic" interpretation, feeling that John was speaking of a literal world market. And I didn't fault you for looking at it as symbolic of "teaching."

But I believe that there were at some points in history moments where the market control would be used as a tool to enforce control of the teaching market and make it sell only certain things and not other.

You think? Every dictatorship in world history has tried to control the market and economy of his own society. That ensures that the public views him as the source of life and prosperity.

For example there already was an antichrist at one point (it even says plainly in the Bible: "and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come") -- a caesar that made it a decree that no one buys or sells except they who worship him by burning him incense. People would be given special certificates that prove they worshipped caesar and it would let them buy and sell. Here we see how the false teaching that caesar is God was enforced in the teaching market by enforcing rules about non-symbolic market.

Yep. The dictator tries to control *both* the economy and the propaganda/teaching. This is now happening, I believe in my own government--the US. Biden and his Democrats have controlled Social Media, and the Legacy Media to make the news favor their own political viewpoint. And Biden promotes the giving of taxpayer money to groups that favor his reelection. (My own political position is conservative Republican.)

And I guess this may happen again, yet this is not the point I was trying to make. But following this route, I would like to add that soon there will be electronic currency and it is something that can be controlled as per how it is used.

Yes, I think that's pretty insightful and current. This is now being promoted here in the U.S. Digital currency controlled by the government can be devastating for business not favored by the government.

And some people -- those who disagree with certain things -- can be just switched out of using it altogether, being left with no means to participate fully in the socio-economic system. I watched a recent youtube video of Snowden even advocating the adoption of the Nostr protocol to enable people to trade despite of the future restrictions.

Not aware of that, but yes. It's vital that the system remain free of political control.

As for what you said the antichrist is yet to come, I believe it already came. There were several of them. All of them don't have the Father and the Son because they have not the Son -- the words of the Son are not in them, but their own.

I believe that many Antichrists have already come. But the "Little Horn," spoken of by Daniel in Dan 7, has not yet come, in my opinion. He will control 10 nations in Europe and defeat 3 of their leaders to assume control of an indominable superpower...at least for 3.5 years.

 

[Water and Fire]

Yes, I know. I was just disagreeing with your "symbolic" interpretation, feeling that John was speaking of a literal world market. And I didn't fault you for looking at it as symbolic of "teaching."

You think? Every dictatorship in world history has tried to control the market and economy of his own society. That ensures that the public views him as the source of life and prosperity.

Yep. The dictator tries to control *both* the economy and the propaganda/teaching. This is now happening, I believe in my own government--the US. Biden and his Democrats have controlled Social Media, and the Legacy Media to make the news favor their own political viewpoint. And Biden promotes the giving of taxpayer money to groups that favor his reelection. (My own political position is conservative Republican.)

Yes, I think that's pretty insightful and current. This is now being promoted here in the U.S. Digital currency controlled by the government can be devastating for business not favored by the government.

Not aware of that, but yes. It's vital that the system remain free of political control.

I believe that many Antichrists have already come. But the "Little Horn," spoken of by Daniel in Dan 7, has not yet come, in my opinion. He will control 10 nations in Europe and defeat 3 of their leaders to assume control of an indominable superpower...at least for 3.5 years.

What reason do you have for believing it is literal? Is Christ being a lamb literal? Paul himself disagrees with your assertion that it is literal.


1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How can literal things be spiritually decerned? That makes no sense... and what is comparing spiritual with spiritual anyway?
The only literal thing about Revelation, is that literally none of it is literal.

 

[dmitry677]

I believe that many Antichrists have already come. But the "Little Horn," spoken of by Daniel in Dan 7, has not yet come, in my opinion. He will control 10 nations in Europe and defeat 3 of their leaders to assume control of an indominable superpower...at least for 3.5 years.

As for me, I think we are at the point where the antichrist, the beast, and the false prophet are already here. The "three unclean spirits like frogs" are causing all the fake news all over the world, trying to bring the world into a third world war, in order to cut down on human population, because the crazy elite is trying the save the world's resources. Yet it is the devil who is working in them, to bring them all to destruction like when "the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake". Jesus said watch that you are not deceived, and I think He spoke specifically about this.

The EU is the beast, because the terrible beast of Daniel was Roman empire. The kings you mentioned definitely include Hungary, because it is opposing the EU policy of war. The EU was formed in 1992 and "power as kings" these 10 nations of Europe received together with the beast of EU it self "for one hour". The beast reining and the kings reining democratically with it its parliament for one hour. One hour is 1/24th of a day, but one day is as a thousand years, so its ~41 years. So they will reign until 2033. Yet at one point, when the three kings shall be removed, they will have one mind, and they will go to make war with the sains in the east of them -- the Orthodox stronghold, where the Spirit of the Lamb dwells. But we know how it ends. This is why in Daniel 7, right after the little horn, we see the picture of the Great Judgement.

 

[dmitry677]

I would like to see an example of your working out the intpretation of one of these symbols. Most people treat the book of Revelation, like it was written by Nostradamus.

Ok, I think I haven't been very thorough in my explanation, which is why you may have felt that. And if not, please help me to understand better what it means to work out an interpretation.

So, for example, when I stated that I believe that the six only symbolizes a seal of the spirit of faith in something that doesn't save, I have shown that this number is only a symbol for everything created, by explaining how God created everything in six days. As for the triple -- which is the part I haven't mentioned -- I believe it symbolizes a spirit of faith, because its written that the "three cords are not easily broken", yet it is the spirit -- and not the flesh or something physical -- which is stronger.

And because we read that the people in the chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation will have the mark on their hands, a parallel can be drawn from when the Bible says: "Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm". Yet, because the heart is something a man believes with: "For with the heart one believes" and also because of the words "having the same spirit of faith", we can see how people believe by "spirit of faith", whether a created spirit of faith, which seals the person with the seal of this world, or the everlasting Spirit of God, with whom are sealed the believers.

 

[Water and Fire]

I struggling to understand where I have gone wrong based your comment. Please help me. From what I see is I have based myself purely on the Bible in my post. For example when I have stated that I believe that 666 only symbolizes a seal of the spirit of faith for salvation in something that doesn't save, I have shown how 6 is a symbol of everything created. The only problem I see is that I haven not been very deep and thorough in my explanation. If this is it, then I will use this as an opportunity to amend my wrong and add that the triple is because its written that the "three cords are not easily broken", yet it is the spirit -- and not the flesh, or something physical -- that is stronger. So, the triple can be taken to mean that the Bible speaks here of a spirit. And because we read that the unlucky people of the chapter 13 of Revelation will have the mark on their hands and on their head, a parallel can be drawn from when the Bible says: "Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm". And because the heart is something a man believes with: "For with the heart one believes" and because of the words "having the same spirit of faith", we can see how we believe by a "spirit of faith", which brings us to understand that a spirit of faith can be either a created spirit that seals a person with the seal of this world, or the Spirit of God, with whom the believers are sealed.

LOL! No dude, you have taken me all wrong. You haven't done anything wrong. I would just like to know how you arrived at your understanding of any of these particular verses.

 

[Water and Fire]

Ok, I think I haven't been very thorough in my explanation, which is why you may have felt that. And if not, please help me to understand better what it means to work out an interpretation.

So, for example, when I stated that I believe that the six only symbolizes a seal of the spirit of faith in something that doesn't save, I have shown that this number is only a symbol for everything created, by explaining how God created everything in six days. As for the triple -- which is the part I haven't mentioned -- I believe it symbolizes a spirit of faith, because its written that the "three cords are not easily broken", yet it is the spirit -- and not the flesh or something physical -- which is stronger.

And because we read that the people in the chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation will have the mark on their hands, a parallel can be drawn from when the Bible says: "Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm". Yet, because the heart is something a man believes with: "For with the heart one believes" and also because of the words "having the same spirit of faith", we can see how people believe by "spirit of faith", whether a created spirit of faith, which seals the person with the seal of this world, or the everlasting Spirit of God, with whom are sealed the believers.

OK, so they recieve the mark on their hands... what do the hands represent?

 

[RandyPNW]

As for me, I think we are at the point where the antichrist, the beast, and the false prophet are already here. The "three unclean spirits like frogs" are causing all the fake news all over the world, trying to bring the world into a third world war, in order to cut down on human population, because the crazy elite is trying the save the world's resources. Yet it is the devil who is working in them, to bring them all to destruction like when "the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake". Jesus said watch that you are not deceived, and I think He spoke specifically about this.

Well, certainly the Devil is already here. And the 4th Kingdom, the "Beast," has never fully gone away. The future Antichrist, however, and his False Prophet, have not yet appeared, as I see it.

It being that the basic foundation of this Antichristian System has already been around for the entire age we live in we do see the signs of Satan's intent to destroy Christian Civilization, which has historically been aligned with European Civilization. You mention the "3 spirits like frogs." In the US, the corrupt political ideology on the Left is referred to by Conservative as the "Deep State" or "the Swamp." Sounds about the right place for the message of "frogs" to sound off, right? If you've ever heard in early Spring "peepers," you'll know how I feel right about now! I used to have a pond, and every Spring the chorus was so loud it almost didn't let you sleep.

Of course, the US is not Europe, but it is a part of European Civilization. The tentacles of Antichristianity will likely spread its influence far beyond Europe itself to affect its sister countries.

The EU is the beast, because the terrible beast of Daniel was Roman empire. The kings you mentioned definitely include Hungary, because it is opposing the EU policy of war. The EU was formed in 1992 and "power as kings" these 10 nations of Europe received together with the beast of EU it self "for one hour". The beast reining and the kings reining democratically with it its parliament for one hour. One hour is 1/24th of a day, but one day is as a thousand years, so its ~41 years. So they will reign until 2033. Yet at one point, when the three kings shall be removed, they will have one mind, and they will go to make war with the sains in the east of them -- the Orthodox stronghold, where the Spirit of the Lamb dwells. But we know how it ends. This is why in Daniel 7, right after the little horn, we see the picture of the Great Judgement.

I believe the "one hour" is literal--a battle that can only be viewed as nuclear. Any other battle would take an extended period of time.

But I do agree we're talking about Europe--East and West Europe. I do *not* believe the saints are primarily in the East of Europe. I in fact believe that all of Europe, East and West, will be united under the Antichrist.

What was formerly Christian Europe will be turned on its head completely to embrace the Antichristian system. We've seen this develop since at least the Enlightenment in the 18th century. Leftist ideology is now taking over all of formerly Christian Civilization. It is largely anti-Christian.

 

[Douggg]

And this is where the Revelation mentions image of the beast. Image is something worshipped. And if the image speaks, it means it's a human being, or the words of this human being, which are received by people instead of the words of Christ. These other words can't find justification in the Bible that is.

No the image will not be a human being.

The statue image of the beast-king will be indwelt by Satan - making it appear to come alive and speak.

When Jesus returns, Jesus will cause the image to go up in flames and turned to ashes - exposing Satan to everyone, including them present that day who had been worshiping the image, unknowingly that they were worshiping Satan.

Ezekiel 28:13-19 tells about the involvement by Satan. In verses 17-18 are about that statue image going up in flames, turned to ashes, exposing Satan.

Satan, cast to the ground, will take place in Revelation 12:7-9.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

In verse 19, is about them who had been worshiping the statue imgae, not realizing that they were worshiping Satan, will be astonished when Satan is exposed in plain sight.

 

[Douggg]

I want to share with you what I think the main symbols of Revelation mean, because I haven't really heard anyone preaching it like that. There is nothing harsh ethically or otherwise in it. Please comment on what you think, and whether you think it fits with the rest of the Bible.

Basically, I think that when it says "buy and sell" in chapter 13, it means to teach teachings that are untrue, just as in the Prophets a prophet mentioned buying wine and milk "for free" in the sense of receiving true teachings, the truth here being God -- the only uncreated being in existence, while everything is something created.

And just as for 6 days God created everything, so also all creation can be symbolized by a six, while He Himself -- by a seven -- the eternal Day for rest, the eternal Sabbath. And so, all the "created truth", can be represented by a six.

And in the end times, whoever will receive a false teaching, and believe it, would receive the spirit of faith in something created yet not true. While the true believers would continue to have the Holy Spirit of faith in things that are true (Spirit is the spirit of faith in truth).

And this is where the Revelation mentions image of the beast. Image is something worshipped. And if the image speaks, it means it's a human being, or the words of this human being, which are received by people instead of the words of Christ. These other words can't find justification in the Bible that is.

But not only the teaching of people can be something created -- our goods deeds can be too. They are after all the creations of our hands, even though they come with the help of God. And so they cannot be worshipped either, aka believed in for salvation. I.e. we do them knowing they save because of Matthew 25, yet after we worked them, we don't remember them and don't trust in them as the foolish farmer in his crop. We forget them like the right hand mustn't know what the left hand does, and we just say: we did what we had to, we are unprofitable slaves of God. The danger from these works come because they don't have eyes to see or ears to hear, and so trusting in them for salvation would seem to only make God angry -- provided God is the same God as He was in the Old Testament.

So what are we left with, is to only believe for salvation in the presence of the Holy Spirit in us, which *is* the Blood of Jesus, because the "blood of every creature is its life", yet the Spirit is Eternal Life -- "my Words are Spirit and they are Life". When our heart has the Holy Spirit, the inner, shabby, sin-nature-ridden garments of our heart are made clean. Yet if guilty conscience shipwrecks our faith, the wine of the Spirit flows out through the holes, burnt by these hot coals (a seared conscience just doesn't feel them, yet the effect on our wine sack is the same). And we become naked, and our shame can be seen -- the Wedding Garment gone. Yet, if we have not trusted in our grapes for salvation (meaning the works of Matthew 25) and haven't been lucky to go the Lord with the oil of the Spirit filling to the brim the lamp of heart, these grapes will provide the last washing of the Blood of Jesus at the Great Judgement ("the blood of grapes"). But if we do die in the Lord, we go to heaven right away, as it's written (I'm paraphrasing): they who have the Spirit of faith to the brim, because of the wine sack without holes and works of praise to the Lord, shall not come to the Judgment, but have already passed from death to life.

Forget the whole metaphorical spiritual message(s) approach to what Revelation 13 is about. The time span for the literal events in Revelation is 42 months. (no offense intended if I sounded kinda harsh).

 

[dmitry677]

OK, so they recieve the mark on their hands... what do the hands represent?

I believe the hands represent our works, because it is written in OT "the works of their hands". But Jesus said we cannot do anything without Him, so it is by His Spirit we work the good deeds of the Gospel. And it is with the spirit of this world that we work everything that God rejects. For example it is by the spirit of this world we lay in wait to slay the righteous, or backstab, or fornicate, or commit adultery, or bear false witness, or reject the plight of the poor and persecuted, or believe for salvation in things that cannot hear or talk. And when we work these things, it is because the seal of this world is on us.

 

[dmitry677]

Christian Civilization, which has historically been aligned with European Civilization

When I said "Orthodox stronghold in the east" I didn't mean eastern Europe. By "east" I meant Russia, which lies on Great European Plain only in its western part. Historically Russia had become the successor of the Eastern, Byzantine Christianity, which is the other biggest Christianity that came about the Great Schism around the end of the first millennium. This Eastern Christianity started with Constantine the Great around 300AD and is now centered in Russia, as other Orthodox denominations have apostatised by servings mass with the Pope. Orthodox Christians do not believe in their works for salvation, but that they are saved if they die in the Lord, receiving the Blood and Body of Christ on the death bed after confession (Holy Spirit and clear conscience). Faith in salvation is generally avoided, but only hope is entertained, and a faith in the goodness of God who saves the humble. Though some fathers of the church advocate that one cannot be called a Christian if he/she doesn't believe they have the Holy Spirit, or that the goal of Christian life is to maintain the Holy Spirit within.

 

[dmitry677]

What was formerly Christian Europe will be turned on its head completely to embrace the Antichristian system. We've seen this develop since at least the Enlightenment in the 18th century

To be honest I think that the Enlightment actually came when the world was relieved after the dark ages have subsided, which was filled with inquisitions and other horrible things being committed by the western church against those it viewed as apostates or enemies, including a failed excursion to the east against the Orthodox Russia. I think people in Europe just had enough of religion back then, since they saw that what it did, and went secular or found alternatives like Protestantism. So, I cannot really agree with you that the world was a better place Christian-wise before the Enlightment

 

[dmitry677]

Forget the whole metaphorical spiritual message(s) approach to what Revelation 13 is about. The time span for the literal events in Revelation is 42 months. (no offense intended if I sounded kinda harsh).

It's fine, no offence taken. But I would personally disagree. I mean it is written about Christ that "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them". I do understand though that you bear a more literal approach to interpreting the symbols of Revelation.