Veganism

[trophy33]

I am not in Europe though, but I speak to what is really happening here. But changes that would come where you are tell me they have not come yet. And what about all the other points I raise? If you say it is not a healthy way, you have not looked at the information, that was showing, and the biblical history showing what God wanted most.

I think I answered your points regarding:

a) that regulations are not meant to limit cruelty
- they are, as proved by the EU regulations, for example
- if you want to limit this topic only to the specific country/state/area you live in, then say so, but thats on you, people who live there, to change your legislature

b) that veganism is healthy or natural
- it is not, its a poor, emergency-like diet and not sustainable for the majority of people, either because of financial reasons or because a need to have more proteins and fats than in normal fruit and vegetables (and no, you cannot give avocados or soy to billions of people every day)
- even children do not want vegetables and our natural diet was not vegan, ever
- you must import exotic kinds of vegetables/fruit that are not natural to your area, to have at least some basic nutrition from them for a longer term (the ecological impact of such transportation is significant)

c) that veganism is biblical
- it is not, since Abel to today, livestock was a common part of biblical nations, even God is depicted as a shepherd in the Bible
- some individuals might be vegan, like your supposed Daniel (I think the text is more about the pagan diet of the king than about veganism as such, though) or Christians in the Roman empire who did not want to eat meat sacrificed to idols, but its not a rule for the rest of us

I agree with you that cruelty and suffering of animals is a valid moral concern and I also try to limit meat consumption as much as possible, preferring poultry before mammals, buying bio animal products from smaller farms and vegan substitutes from time to time. And believe me, they are very expensive (and I am not poor, I am a middle class).

However, we must be realistic and look for some balance. What suits your diet individually is a different thing from a world wide solution. You may have good results on a vegan diet, some other on a carnivore diet, most people on a balanced diet. Our gut microbiome, immunity, allergies etc differ from person to person.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

If you want a healthy, varied and balanced nutrition (high quality proteins, healthy fats, enough of collagen etc), its expensive, if you live in an industrialized nation and in a city.

Eating vegan is not as expensive as eating a traditional meat and dairy-containing diet. But only so long as the diet focuses on whole foods and not processed commercial vegan alternatives.

New Study Finds Vegan Meals Cost 40% Less Than Meat/Fish | Veganuary

According to Kantar data, eating plant-based can save you time and money

veganuary.com

 

[shaul]

Genesis 1:29 tells us God originally gave humans every seed bearing plant for food. Doesn’t this mean his original plan was for us to be vegan? I recently came to Christ. So far I’ve been convicted to give up cigarettes, weed, and sexual immorality. I’ve just finished reading the New Testament for the first time and the only confusing thing for me about Jesus is his endorsement of fish and other animals as food. Cats and dogs are tortured and eaten in China much like pigs, cows, and other animals are here in North America. Do you think God would support factory farming as it is done today when so many plant-based alternatives exist and have been proven nutritionally adequate, not to mention the detriment it is doing to our environment and human health?

Animals are given to mankind as food, since the fall. Whether or not that was in God's perfect plan is unknown. However, we are told that in the New Heavens and New Earth (restoration of Paradise and the Heavenly Jerusalem is on the new Earth), the lamb will lie down with the Lamb, which would seem to indicate that predatory carnivores will not keep their previous habits or mode of existence and sustenance.

However, after the fall and per the choosing of Israel to be God's ambassadors on earth, God did provide In the Tabernacle and later in Solomon's Temple, instructions on animal sacrifices that were to be made to God (YHWH/Adonai). These sacrifices were offered as burnt offerings and meal offerings.

Part of the sacrifices were to be reserved for the Levite Priest and their families in order to supply them with food. The offerings are very specifically spelled out in the Torah (especially Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy).

Deuteronomy 14 gives specific instructions on which animals were to be eaten by the Israelis and which ones were not. It would seem incredulous to believe God would have given laws concerning meat and dietary requirements if he did not intend on mankind consuming animals.

Paul and Peter (as well as the Christians in the Church at Jerusalem) as recorded in the book of Acts, actually got into a contentious argument about Gentile and Jewish Christians need to be obedient to all of the laws in the Torah. Many Gentile Christians did not know or conform to the Law of Moses (the Torah). The Council of Jerusalem (the Jerusalem Church) came to define the differences between keeping and observing the law among the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians (Act 15). The basic requirements about consuming food are contained in these passages as well.

In Romans 14 Paul specifically addresses Vegan and Meat Eater diets. Neither he says is wrong, and both are acceptable. We should not be concerned with such trivial things is Paul's conclusion and let no one become a stumbling block (create points of contentions or be subject to ridicule or contention) over such things. It is up to ones personal conscience and beliefs that makes it right or wrong. However whichever lifestyle you choose does not give you the right to judge others over such trivialities.

Hope this helps !! Shalom!

 

[trophy33]

Eating vegan is not as expensive as eating a traditional meat and dairy-containing diet. But only so long as the diet focuses on whole foods and not processed commercial vegan alternatives.

New Study Finds Vegan Meals Cost 40% Less Than Meat/Fish | Veganuary

According to Kantar data, eating plant-based can save you time and money

veganuary.com

If we want to get the same nutrition (which mostly requires some vegan alternatives to meat or supplements), its more expensive.

I tried.

Also, we must realize that most people cannot eat some part of vegan diet because of allergies, fertilizers, spraying and its impossible to get all the nutrition and satisfaction eating still 5 or so of cheap kinds of vegetables, lentils etc. their body is luckily not reacting to in a bad way. And bio alternatives are expensive, at least if you live in a city and must buy them in normal shops with high margins.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Personal and Planetary Health—The Connection With Dietary Choices

Personal and Planetary Health—The Connection With Dietary Choices

This Viewpoint offers strategies to help shift to plant-based diets to reduce climate change and promote individual health by encouraging patients, incorporating the environmental impact of food choices in national dietary guidelines, and adding plant-based nutrition training in medical schools.

jamanetwork.com

If we want to get the same nutrition (which mostly requires some vegan alternatives to meat or supplements), its more expensive.

I tried.

That may be your opinion and experience but research does not support it.

 

[trophy33]

View attachment 331022
Personal and Planetary Health—The Connection With Dietary Choices

Personal and Planetary Health—The Connection With Dietary Choices

This Viewpoint offers strategies to help shift to plant-based diets to reduce climate change and promote individual health by encouraging patients, incorporating the environmental impact of food choices in national dietary guidelines, and adding plant-based nutrition training in medical schools.

jamanetwork.com

That may be your opinion and experience but research does not support it.

There are tons of various studies and research so that one can find some support for anything. The quality and repeatability of a specific study is what matters.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

There are tons of various studies and research so that one can find some support for anything. The quality and repeatability of a specific study is what matters.

But I don't see that you provided any study or anything to support your claims.

 

[FenderTL5]

Eating vegan is not as expensive as eating a traditional meat and dairy-containing diet. But only so long as the diet focuses on whole foods and not processed commercial vegan alternatives.

New Study Finds Vegan Meals Cost 40% Less Than Meat/Fish | Veganuary

According to Kantar data, eating plant-based can save you time and money

veganuary.com

In our household we eat vegan('ish) about half the year.

I agree.
As long as your preparing grains, legumes, vegetables from dried/canned then it is less costly.
However, prepared meals in restuarants or processed "alternative" products are expensive.
Fresh produce can be a wild card depending on what you are purchasing and when.

 

[trophy33]

But I don't see that you provided any study or anything to support your claims.

So far, a balanced diet is the most recommended one (for example the Mediterranean kind). Such recommendations are so known that you should not have any problem to find it.

But as I said before, every individual has different needs. If you have allergies to gluten or milk, you cannot force yourself to eat a lot of bread, grains and dairy, logically. Some people can eat only paleo diet or only meat, because they have very serious reactions to these agricultural products.

 

[Daily Propane]

Shouldnt we eat a balanced diet all the time? The Spicy Beanburger is not avaliable in my country so i have to settle on the Whopper.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

So far, a balanced diet is the most recommended one (for example the Mediterranean kind). Such recommendations are so known that you should not have any problem to find it.

You are shifting your argument. I agree that a balanced Mediterranean diet is probably the healthiest. But your claim was that vegan diet is MORE EXPENSIVE.

 

[timewerx]

b) that veganism is healthy or natural
- it is not, its a poor, emergency-like diet and not sustainable for the majority of people, either because of financial reasons or because a need to have more proteins and fats than in normal fruit and vegetables (and no, you cannot give avocados or soy to billions of people every day)

I'm a poor person living in a poor country.

I've gone for weeks on vegetarian diet cheaply and without problems. I accumulate body fat mostly from high carb food like rice and molasses (sugar cane) and some from coconut milk and coconut meat which I can buy raw and cheap. I get protein from legumes and other vegetables and cacao. Legumes, cacao, molasses, and coconut is cheap here as they are produced locally and can bought from the local wet market.

The body can turn carbs into body fat.....However a high carb diet can cause problems for diabetics and sedentary people.

However, I have relatively high exercise workload and combined with intermittent fasting, prevents problems associated with high blood sugar. In fact, I'm a little underweight despite a high carb, high calorie diet.

It's a not a perfect diet but exercise makes up for it. It's probably the 'perfect diets' that works even without exercising that are expensive

 

[trophy33]

You are shifting your argument. I agree that a balanced Mediterranean diet is probably the healthiest. But your claim was that vegan diet is MORE EXPENSIVE.

I claim that the same balanced nutrition is more expensive to get from a vegan diet. What do you want me to do, to list the specific prices from shops?

And if so, which ones? Vegan diet can be just drinking water and eating rice. So whatever prices I will list, you can say "but this one can be replaced by this and its cheaper". But it would not be a healthy, balanced and sustainable diet nutrition.

To illustrate it a bit:
100 grams of nuts - around 5 euro
125 grams of blueberries - 3.5 euro
1 liter of soy milk - 3.5 euro

500g chicken meat - 3 euro
1 liter of milk - 1 euro

Etc. And protein substitutes of meat (for example from pea/soy protein) are about 6 euro for 200 grams (and the protein/aminoacids there are not as complex as in a meat protein).

 

[trophy33]

I'm a poor person living in a poor country.

I've gone for weeks on vegetarian diet cheaply and without problems. I accumulate body fat mostly from high carb food like rice and molasses (sugar cane) and some from coconut milk and coconut meat which I can buy raw and cheap. I get protein from legumes and other vegetables and cacao. Legumes, cacao, molasses, and coconut is cheap here as they are produced locally and can bought from the local wet market.

The body can turn carbs into body fat.....However a high carb diet can cause problems for diabetics and sedentary people.

However, I have relatively high exercise workload and combined with intermittent fasting, prevents problems associated with high blood sugar. In fact, I'm a little underweight despite a high carb, high calorie diet.

It's a not a perfect diet but exercise makes up for it. It's probably the 'perfect diets' that works even without exercising that are expensive

I do not know all the details of your life and diet, but the more you exercise, the more and better quality of protein you need. So its always something to check.

Studies show that the best strategy is to maximize our muscle mass in our youth, to maintain it through our adult life and minimize its loss during the old age.

Higher intake of protein is associated with a lower risk for all cause mortality. Older people need to eat even more than recommended daily intake of protein, because they cannot process it from food as well as younger people. Fragility of our body is something that is very risky, mainly for older people and we want to build our bodies before that age.

Regarding protein, its recommended for it to be about 1.7g per 1 kg of body weight per day and to spread its intake throughout the day (because body cannot process it all at once). I do not know about obese people, I guess they must count the amount of protein differently.

Then, there is for example Valter Longo (and some older studies) recommending to keep our protein low until the age of 65, because of longevity. So not all individual experts agree on this, but I would go with the official guidelines of sport nutrition, for most people.

Also a side note - be aware that legumes can be dangerous and cause inflammation, if you do not cook them properly.

 

[timewerx]

I do not know all the details of your life and diet, but the more you exercise, the more and better quality of protein you need. So its always something to check.

I've not adopted a vegan lifestyle yet but I have weeks of hard vegan diet. Then ofc, mixed meat and vegetables when meat becomes available.

And then I have meat-heavy weeks as well. My intake of cacao is constant and is my primary non-animal based source of protein, followed by legumes.

Between the meat-heavy and vegan weeks, I don't think there is any effect in my workout performance. My strength and endurance is improving though and keep getting weekly gains. I've been doing these workouts for 3 years now.

I've read a study journal in the past that intense workouts can "burn lean mass" that is metabolize your muscles. Sounds bad right? But also mentioned, muscle nuclei is preserved somehow. With adequate rest and recovery and protein intake, this lost muscle mass can be quickly restored in only a matter of days. If I remember correctly, the article is giving more weight to exercise and recovery/good sleep in preserving muscle mass than going nuts on protein intake.

 

[trophy33]

I've not adopted a vegan lifestyle yet but I have weeks of hard vegan diet. Then ofc, mixed meat and vegetables when meat becomes available.

And then I have meat-heavy weeks as well. My intake of cacao is constant and is my primary non-animal based source of protein, followed by legumes.

Between the meat-heavy and vegan weeks, I don't think there is any effect in my workout performance. My strength and endurance is improving though and keep getting weekly gains. I've been doing these workouts for 3 years now.

I've read a study journal in the past that intense workouts can "burn lean mass" that is metabolize your muscles. Sounds bad right? But also mentioned, muscle nuclei is preserved somehow. With adequate rest and recovery and protein intake, this lost muscle mass can be quickly restored in only a matter of days. If I remember correctly, the article is giving more weight to exercise and recovery/good sleep in preserving muscle mass than going nuts on protein intake.

I do not know how much protein you take daily, if throughout the day, what time of day you exercise etc.

Also, I do not know of any study checking if the protein from legumes is enough for intensive exercise or how much legumes you would need to eat.

But its certain that, you want to keep some balance, both exercising too much or too little is unhealthy. As too much meat is unhealthy... and basically too much of anything.

 

[timewerx]

I do not know how much protein you take daily, if throughout the day, what time of day you exercise etc.

Also, I do not know of any study checking if the protein from legumes is enough for intensive exercise or how much legumes you would need to eat.

But its certain that, you want to keep some balance, both exercising too much or too little is unhealthy. As too much meat is unhealthy... and basically too much of anything.

Totally fine with legumes since the coconut and cocoa I consume as part of my meals have strong anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant properties.

Anyway, legumes isn't my only main source of protein when I'm in vegan diet. Another high protein source I have is cacao and it's part of every meal. Lesser protein sources include coconut and rice.

I have no reasons for concern at all. I'm retaining body weight and muscle power and muscle force production is still improving. I've been maintaining this exercise workload for 3 years now. If there's anything wrong at all, I'll get weaker but I'm still seeing gains.

But ofc, there's more to just just diet and exercise for me. I also try to achieve ketosis through intermittent fasting which is a much more cheaper, simpler, and sustainable way to achieve ketosis (but requires great amount of discipline to maintain). Ketones enhance exercise recovery and makes the body more efficient at using proteins to build and repair muscles so you don't need as much protein than if your body is primarily using glycogen as energy source.

 

[trophy33]

Totally fine with legumes since the coconut and cocoa I consume as part of my meals have strong anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant properties.

Anyway, legumes isn't my only main source of protein when I'm in vegan diet. Another high protein source I have is cacao and it's part of every meal. Lesser protein sources include coconut and rice.

I have no reasons for concern at all. I'm retaining body weight and muscle power and muscle force production is still improving. I've been maintaining this exercise workload for 3 years now. If there's anything wrong at all, I'll get weaker but I'm still seeing gains.

But ofc, there's more to just just diet and exercise for me. I also try to achieve ketosis through intermittent fasting which is a much more cheaper, simpler, and sustainable way to achieve ketosis (but requires great amount of discipline to maintain). Ketones enhance exercise recovery and makes the body more efficient at using proteins to build and repair muscles so you don't need as much protein than if your body is primarily using glycogen as energy source.

Ketosis is anti-inflammatory, yes, but I do not know if it means that you need less protein, I admit I have not heard anything about such mechanism.

Also, ketosis is probably fully in play after 2-3 days of fasting or after eating less than 20-50 grams of carbohydrates a day, which is practically impossible with a common vegan diet.

If your diet suits you, stick with it. But if I remember correctly, you said somewhere that you are underweight... which, after 3 years of intensive exercising, is a sign you do not have enough of nutrition. If your exercise contains enough of resistance strength training, which is important for overall physique, you should be gaining muscle mass.

 

[timewerx]

Ketosis is anti-inflammatory, yes, but I do not know if it means that you need less protein, I admit I have not heard anything about such mechanism.

Also, ketosis is probably fully in play after 2-3 days of fasting or after eating less than 20-50 grams of carbohydrates a day, which is practically impossible with a common vegan diet.

If your diet suits you, stick with it. But if I remember correctly, you said somewhere that you are underweight... which, after 3 years of intensive exercising, is a sign you do not have enough of nutrition. If your exercise contains enough of resistance strength training, which is important for overall physique, you should be gaining muscle mass.

It's probably not worth delving too deeply on my weight. This is probably my norm as all my former health problems got healed when I dropped down to 115 lbs. They were gone in just 4 months and never felt this great since I was 10 years old!

Losing this much weight also made me faster, more fatigue resistant in cycling, and much more capable when exercising in high temperatures. I just feel great all the time.

My strength training is entirely by sprinting on a stationary bicycle. All-out maximum power in 30 seconds. Just my body weight. No extra weights involved. Some experts call this strength training while some do not. I really don't know and frankly, I don't care that much as long as the training works for me and improving my performance.

For someone new to ketosis it will indeed take 2-3 days fasting to get there as the body is not yet accustomed / adapted to fat burning.

For intermittent fasting IF regulars, it will take as little as 12 hrs.

For people like me who combines IF with high intensity exercises during the fasting window, as little as 6 hrs.

The signs are going to be quite obvious once you entered ketosis. Your sweat will start smelling like gasoline or motor oil. If you're hungry before, your hunger will disappear. If you felt weaker during the fasting window, you'll feel stronger and more energized once ketosis is in full power.

 

[trophy33]

For someone new to ketosis it will indeed take 2-3 days fasting to get there as the body is not yet accustomed / adapted to fat burning.

For intermittent fasting IF regulars, it will take as little as 12 hrs.

For people like me who combines IF with high intensity exercises during the fasting window, as little as 6 hrs.

Is there some human study you base this assumption on? I am afraid that without measuring ketones in your blood, the subjective feelings might not be precise.

Regarding being underweight - I understand that losing fat weight feels great (your movement is free, your breathing is easier, less pain in joints etc), but more muscles is not the same as more fat. It feels different.

We must also take into account our future. If you have few muscles now, in your youth, will you have enough strength to get up from a falling without help, in your 60's, 70's, 80's? I am not saying you need more muscles now, its rather an investment into our health span. Fragility is a big problem in older people.
Intensive exercise without enough building blocks for repairs and without muscle mass can be contra-productive in the long term. We do not want our body to be damaged and weak, later.

Edit: English