Veganism

[Akita Suggagaki]

Of course I am just at the point that the idea of eating dead animal flesh seems pretty disgusting to me anyway.

 

[RDKirk]

You need to do a better job at getting the word to

American Heart Association among others

Saturated Fats

Eating too much saturated fat can raise the level of LDL(bad) cholesterol in your blood.

www.heart.org

The question is: Have they actually proven high LDL is a problem if HDL is also high and triglyceride ratio is low? The answer is: No, they haven't proven it.

Corrolation is not causation. Just because we tend to see firefighters at house fires doesn't mean firefighters cause house fires.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well anybody can go to Dr. Ken Berry's YouTube channel and he debunks alot of those negative things you just said about meat, and he provides the research studies to back it up. But I support the freedom to eat what you want. Demonizing eggs and meat in favor of bugs and soy burgers is wrong imo.

No offense intended to you, but a person can find alot of stuff on the internet. It doesn't mean it is good advice. People can cherry-pick various studies in all kinds of journals, but that's not a good way to do science. Dr. Berry's advice contradicts most major health organizations dietary guidelines.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The question is: Have they actually proven high LDL is a problem if HDL is also high and triglyceride ratio is low? The answer is: No, they haven't proven it.

Corrolation is not causation. Just because we tend to see firefighters at house fires doesn't mean firefighters cause house fires.

Are you contrarian in everything? Stock market also?

 

[RDKirk]

Are you contrarian in everything? Stock market also?

That's a particular issue that has turned into a real "look at the history and follow the money" circumstance.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That's a particular issue that has turned into a real "look at the history and follow the money" circumstance.

I saw that The Journal of American Cardiology now states:
"The recommendation to limit dietary saturated fatty acid (SFA) intake has persisted despite mounting evidence to the contrary.'
"There is no robust evidence that current population-wide arbitrary upper limits on saturated fat consumption in the United States will prevent CVD or reduce mortality."
https://www.jacc.org/doi/10...

So I asked the folks at Nurtitionfacts.org what to make of it. They are very plant based.

I got this reply:
"Thank you for your comment. The role of SFA within health has long been debated throughout history and as with any nutrition related topic, conclusions are not always straight forward and clear cut. From my understanding, the article was trying to suggest that one should not solely focus on SFA as the culprit of CVD but rather look at one's diet as a whole – meaning focusing on one's macronutrient and micronutrient distribution. I also believe that the article is trying to outline that not all SFA are equal, videlicet, that whole dairy will have a very different impact on health than highly processed sausages for instance. Just like with carbohydrates, it may not be that carbohydrates are inherently 'bad' for our health, but rather that the quality and quantity makes the poison, and this may likewise be applied to SFA.

Cholesterol and Heart Disease: Why Has There Been So Much Controversy? | NutritionFacts.org

Is the role of cholesterol in heart disease settled beyond a reasonable doubt?

nutritionfacts.org

It has now been 8 years since I required a stent in my RCA. I don't know how accurate the measure was but they told me 99% blockage. In that time I have seen plenty of other people requiring more stents or re-stents of the same place. I have tried to follow the recommendations and am doing well without any further interventions. I have avoided red meat and dairy products. Coincidence? Maybe. But I am sticking to my lifestyle medicine approach including avoiding saturated fats and all animal products. Though I must admit to salmon and a little chicken once in a while. I never cared for cheese or eggs.

Though the health may be debated, I don't think the ethics can.

 

[FireDragon76]

I saw that The Journal of American Cardiology now states:
"The recommendation to limit dietary saturated fatty acid (SFA) intake has persisted despite mounting evidence to the contrary.'
"There is no robust evidence that current population-wide arbitrary upper limits on saturated fat consumption in the United States will prevent CVD or reduce mortality."
https://www.jacc.org/doi/10...

So I asked the folks at Nurtitionfacts.org what to make of it. They are very plant based.

I got this reply:
"Thank you for your comment. The role of SFA within health has long been debated throughout history and as with any nutrition related topic, conclusions are not always straight forward and clear cut. From my understanding, the article was trying to suggest that one should not solely focus on SFA as the culprit of CVD but rather look at one's diet as a whole – meaning focusing on one's macronutrient and micronutrient distribution. I also believe that the article is trying to outline that not all SFA are equal, videlicet, that whole dairy will have a very different impact on health than highly processed sausages for instance. Just like with carbohydrates, it may not be that carbohydrates are inherently 'bad' for our health, but rather that the quality and quantity makes the poison, and this may likewise be applied to SFA.

Cholesterol and Heart Disease: Why Has There Been So Much Controversy? | NutritionFacts.org

Is the role of cholesterol in heart disease settled beyond a reasonable doubt?

nutritionfacts.org

It has now been 8 years since I required a stent in my RCA. I don't know how accurate the measure was but they told me 99% blockage. In that time I have seen plenty of other people requiring more stents or re-stents of the same place. I have tried to follow the recommendations and am doing well without any further interventions. I have avoided red meat and dairy products. Coincidence? Maybe. But I am sticking to my lifestyle medicine approach including avoiding saturated fats and all animal products. Though I must admit to salmon and a little chicken once in a while. I never cared for cheese or eggs.

Gil Carvalho of Nutrition Made Simple on Youtube is somebody I follow. He's a biomedical researcher and science communicator.

https://www.youtube.com/@NutritionMadeSimple

I also follow Chris MacAskill on Plant Chompers. He's a former geophysicists and runner. He's got alot of good information on Ancel Keys and the origin of the Mediterranean Diet:

https://www.youtube.com/@PlantChompers

 

[RDKirk]

Though the health may be debated, I don't think the ethics can.

And so, here, as I always say in these debates (and I've probably said it earlier in this thread), y'all always want to start out talking about health, but when facts enter the chat, the bottom line always turns out to be philosophical.

Ethics are always debatable.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Ethics are always debatable.

I suppose so. And even a vegan diet can be very unhealthy. Certainly you would agree that some diets are healthier than others.

 

[RDKirk]

I suppose so. And even a vegan diet can be very unhealthy. Certainly you would agree that some diets are healthier than others.

I know a "junk food vegan" who is close to 300 pounds and wonders why she can't lose weight.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

"Thus, the study found that reducing animal foods doesn't necessarily lead to a healthier diet and greater heart protection if the resulting diet is based on less healthy plant foods."

The right plant-based diet for you - Harvard Health

Most plant-based diets emphasize foods associated with heart benefits. However, some plant foods, such as fruit juices, refined grains, processed cereals, and potatoes, can be harmful. The goal is ...

www.health.harvard.edu

 

[FireDragon76]

There's alot of emerging evidence that so-called "hyper-palatable" processed foods are a big part of the rise in obesity. What's really counter-intuitive is how many hyper-palatable foods aren't sugary, but rely instead on the right combination of carbohydrates, fat, and salt (like potato chips or Doritos):

Most people don't think of a potato chip or a french fry as a particularly fatty food, but it's common for those types of foods to have half of their calories from fat. Fat seems to add very little to a perceived food's satiety, but it does potentially add to the palatability of a food. They've done feeding studies with pasta and tomato sauce, with or without olive oil, and the people eating the pasta didn't eat any less, but they were consuming more calories.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

"Thus, the study found that reducing animal foods doesn't necessarily lead to a healthier diet and greater heart protection if the resulting diet is based on less healthy plant foods."

The right plant-based diet for you - Harvard Health

Most plant-based diets emphasize foods associated with heart benefits. However, some plant foods, such as fruit juices, refined grains, processed cereals, and potatoes, can be harmful. The goal is ...

www.health.harvard.edu

Don't you make fun of my tomato and crouton salad!

Ate salad for dinner! Mostly croutons and tomatoes. Really just one big, round crouton covered with tomato sauce. And cheese. Fine, it was pizza, I ate pizza.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Don't you make fun of my tomato and crouton salad!

Ate salad for dinner! Mostly croutons and tomatoes. Really just one big, round crouton covered with tomato sauce. And cheese. Fine, it was pizza, I ate pizza.

Have you tries pizza without cheese or meat?

 

[Isilwen]

Have you tries pizza without cheese or meat?

That's tomato pie in the Philadelphia area.

 

[FireDragon76]

Have you tries pizza without cheese or meat?

A shi take mushroom pizza is actually pretty good.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

A shi take mushroom pizza is actually pretty good.

with zucchini

 

[FredVB]

Jesus is God. Jesus ate fish and lamb. Thereby God must approve of eating animals. Not to mention all the parts of Leviticus and other OT books that discuss how to slaughter and prepare animals.

Are you really sure about that? And I see nothing so strong as God approving about eating animals. God's will does not change. Corruption and sin happened.

Your ministry isn't teaching Christians about veganism. If that's something you care about, fine, bit God allows us to eat meat. Not only that, Paul warned us not to fight over it. Just let others eat what they want.

Also, I wish people wouldn't act like veganism is morally superior or as if it doesn't have its own environmental harm. You need to till many thousands of acres of land, cut down trees, and kill every animal in the ground and even animals on top of it, like deer who are bedding down. There is use of dangerous fertilizers and chemicals that pollute water and kill all types of wildlife. Veganism isn't morally superior.

What do you know about my ministry? I can talk about God and God's will, and I can talk about what is better for us, if a thread is here about veganism, I can speak on that as much as anyone.
Why say I am fighting but you are not?

Growing plants is not more destructive than animal agriculture with the feed to keep it growing. Animal agriculture really is more destructive.

I have not said one word about being morally superior. That response is being defensive.

Are you saying this from a personal stance or from actual scriptures? Because God does allow eating animals. Many people who eat keto are healthy with a lower risk of heart attack and stroke. It's really sugar and carbs that cause most of those issues, not the meat itself.

Genesis 9:3​

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

Romans 14:1-23​

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

Deuteronomy 14:1-29​

“You are the sons of the Lord your God. You shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. “You shall not eat any abomination. These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. ...

Leviticus 11:2​

“Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth.

Mark 7:19​

Since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Romans 14:14​

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

Keto is not at all for certain really healthier.

What you say is allowed I see are concessions, with parameters that if you are not meeting you do not have it permitted. I don't think I am weaker, that uses scriptures out of context, but it would not be right for you to tell others they are weaker, and argue with them.

Mark 7 is not about that at all, context shows that. In fact, context must be looked at for all passages, to not misuse them.

I think you have your chapters confused. The Bible mentions what you stated how the people had become in chapter 6 of Genesis.

No, it is not being confused. Genesis 8:21

 

[tampasteve]

What do you know about my ministry? I can talk about God and God's will, and I can talk about what is better for us, if a thread is here about veganism, I can speak on that as much as anyone.
Why say I am fighting but you are not?

Growing plants is not more destructive than animal agriculture with the feed to keep it growing. Animal agriculture really is more destructive.

I have not said one word about being morally superior. That response is being defensive.

I'm not sure why you are quoting me, I never accused you of thinking you were superior and I did not mention anything about farming. I'm not even commenting on what may be better for us to eat. Another member made those statements (who you also quoted). My statement was in reply to this post you made:

God approves eating animals? I don't see anything from passages saying anything so strong.

I simply showed logically how God must be OK with eating animals.

 

[FredVB]

I'm not sure why you are quoting me, I never accused you of thinking you were superior and I did not mention anything about farming. I'm not even commenting on what may be better for us to eat. Another member made those statements (who you also quoted). My statement was in reply to this post you made

I simply showed logically how God must be OK with eating animals.

You responded to me too quickly, blame this site instead. The blue bar extending so far down the screen generally has my keyboard when I bring it up to type my response cutting off view of anything but a blue screen, so there is no way to see what I write when I type it up. I respond to everyone who responds to my post, whenever I get to it and I intended the response to you, which you don't show you have seen, but because I could not see what I responded to, I sent the message and then saw I missed the response to you, and I promptly edited my response that includes response to you, but you responded too quickly, and did not answer that you saw that response to you. I couldn't help it, with this site this way, which would not have been a problem for me, and for us, this way. I like using this site, up until this, but I never have this problem anywhere else and only here after the newest server it works with. See again there is response to you already.

You have not shown "God must be OK with eating animals", it is just shown there was some permission, with careful parameters, that was said in horrible circumstances, and further passages are also shown without context being taken into account. You don't even show you do use things from slaughtered animals within those parameters and you would not have permission for those otherwise.

You did not respond to anything else but that. Everything about how it is better to not have those is just disregarded. I don't excuse willful ignorance.

Are you really sure about that? And I see nothing so strong as God approving about eating animals. God's will does not change. Corruption and sin happened.


What do you know about my ministry? I can talk about God and God's will, and I can talk about what is better for us, if a thread is here about veganism, I can speak on that as much as anyone.
Why say I am fighting but you are not?

Growing plants is not more destructive than animal agriculture with the feed to keep it growing. Animal agriculture really is more destructive.

I have not said one word about being morally superior. That response is being defensive.


Keto is not at all for certain really healthier.

What you say is allowed I see are concessions, with parameters that if you are not meeting you do not have it permitted. I don't think I am weaker, that uses scriptures out of context, but it would not be right for you to tell others they are weaker, and argue with them.

Mark 7 is not about that at all, context shows that. In fact, context must be looked at for all passages, to not misuse them.


No, it is not being confused. Genesis 8:21