Veganism

[tampasteve]

You have not shown "God must be OK with eating animals", it is just shown there was some permission, with careful parameters, that was said in horrible circumstances, and further passages are also shown without context being taken into account. You don't even show you do use things from slaughtered animals within those parameters and you would not have permission for those otherwise.

You did not respond to anything else but that. Everything about how it is better to not have those is just disregarded. I don't excuse willful ignorance.

Whole chapters are dedicated to how to properly care for and slaughter animals for both food and other uses. Jesus eats animals (fish, lamb) in multiple places in the Gospels.

I absolutely agree that there is an argument to be made that perhaps God intended people to live one way in the Garden or that veganism is perhaps a more healthy lifestyle, but I don't think that a logical or honest argument can be made that God did not give permission to use and eat animals.

I am not willfully ignorant, I am purposeful in my intentions. Rather, willfully ignoring the scriptures to support an unsupportable argument is more problematic.

In fact, context must be looked at for all passages, to not misuse them.

In that we are in full agreement.

We will probably never see eye to eye on this, and that is OK with me - we don't have to.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

As a vegan, or pretty close, I never try to make a Biblical argument for it. Even after his resurrection Jesus ate fish. And lamb was part of Passover.
My reasons are strictly ethical and health.

 

[FredVB]

Whole chapters are dedicated to how to properly care for and slaughter animals for both food and other uses. Jesus eats animals (fish, lamb) in multiple places in the Gospels.

I absolutely agree that there is an argument to be made that perhaps God intended people to live one way in the Garden or that veganism is perhaps a more healthy lifestyle, but I don't think that a logical or honest argument can be made that God did not give permission to use and eat animals.

I am not willfully ignorant, I am purposeful in my intentions. Rather, willfully ignoring the scriptures to support an unsupportable argument is more problematic.


In that we are in full agreement.

We will probably never see eye to eye on this, and that is OK with me - we don't have to.

I just come back to this when some respond, as you still do, and others have stopped. If you don't go on, I do not go after you to tell you that you are wrong not to change. But if you make claims in response to me, I challenge you to back those up. Even though I know what verses might be used. If multiple places in the gospel accounts really show Jesus eats animals, even fish and lamb, show some of those many passages.

Yes there is destruction to this world from animal agriculture, and did you know God absolutely hates that destruction? And animal products are not better for our health, the healthiest way is without animal products, while yes I know there are unhealthy ways without animal products too. But God is fine with us using products from animals and doesn't want us to stop? Really? Why?

Do you know God is against animal abuse? Yes, and it is in the Bible, for those of us not listening to our conscience anymore.

As a vegan, or pretty close, I never try to make a Biblical argument for it. Even after his resurrection Jesus ate fish. And lamb was part of Passover.
My reasons are strictly ethical and health.

Yes, people are indeed being turned away from Christianity, even here, but in a number of churches to. It is because there are those among Christians who give no place to vegans. They help you to not be Christian too. You would not be, because you understand from them Jesus ate meat from animals, and it wouldn't matter to you when you wouldn't be Christian. Again, I say that Bible passages do not really support that Jesus ate meat from animals, there is historical evidence that he did not. The best a response can give is some very questionable passage.

If we trust God we should see God is ethical and cares for a healthy way for us.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Again, I say that Bible passages do not really support that Jesus ate meat from animals, there is historical evidence that he did not.

I don't know how you can say that when he clearly ate fish and Passover meal.

 

[Berserk]

I have a friend whom I affectionately describe as a "vegan terrorist" because he is always preaching to me the health benefits of veganism.
His thorough research shows that the greatest enemy of good health is fructose and sugar.
I think he is right, especially about processed meats and excessive red meat, but life is too short and I enjoy red meat so much more than vegan alternatives and feel the need for one daily portion of meat to enjoy life to the full. My friend's daughter has a Master's degree in nutrition and disagrees with her Dad's vegan crusade. She insists that the important thing is what else you eat: a high fiber diet that includes e. g. kale, spinach, chard, beets, beans nuts, berries, and real whole grain bread, especially Ezekiel bread. But even she agrees that processed meat is bad for you.

 

[tampasteve]

If multiple places in the gospel accounts really show Jesus eats animals, even fish and lamb, show some of those many passages.

For sake of discussion I will avoid using the references where Jesus eats the Passover meal, which he would have done throughout his life. I am avoiding using those verses as they do not explicitly show him eating the meat. That said, it would have been unthinkable for him to not eat the lamb as part of the feast/celebration/ritual.
The most explicit verse we see is Luke 24:40-43
And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

Further, while the verses do not show Him eating the fish, we see several miracles where Jesus multiplies fish to feed other people as well as enabling the disciples to catch fish to kill and eat/sell.

 

[RDKirk]

For sake of discussion I will avoid using the references where Jesus eats the Passover meal, which he would have done throughout his life. I am avoiding using those verses as they do not explicitly show him eating the meat. That said, it would have been unthinkable for him to not eat the lamb as part of the feast/celebration/ritual.
The most explicit verse we see is Luke 24:40-43
And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

Further, while the verses do not show Him eating the fish, we see several miracles where Jesus multiplies fish to feed other people as well as enabling the disciples to catch fish to kill and eat/sell.

Why do you say Luke 24 is not explicit?

They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

What is not explicit about that? Luke's entire intention is to be explicit that Jesus did, indeed, actually eat that fish to prove that Jesus was not an incorporeal ghost.

 

[tampasteve]

Why do you say Luke 24 is not explicit?

They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

What is not explicit about that? Luke's entire intention is to be explicit that Jesus did, indeed, actually eat that fish to prove that Jesus was not an incorporeal ghost.

You misread my post. I said

The most explicit verse we see is

bolding added for emphasis

I agree, it is a clear example of Jesus eating fish, even actually asking for it.

 

[FredVB]

I don't know how you can say that when he clearly ate fish and Passover meal.

There is nothing you or others here are showing that I have not looked at or considered before. Look carefully at what is being referred to. One, just one Passover meal, is mentioned with Jesus in passages, when he was at his last supper. And he was the lamb, his only symbols mentioned are bread and wine. And just the one passage is found that seems to suggest Jesus ate fish. Whether he ever ate meat is assumed because of the understanding Jesus had to, hardly enough to convince me Jesus chose to eat meat. It is not mentioned in passages that he did, early believers are known to have believed that he did not eat meat.

I have a friend whom I affectionately describe as a "vegan terrorist" because he is always preaching to me the health benefits of veganism.
His thorough research shows that the greatest enemy of good health is fructose and sugar.
I think he is right, especially about processed meats and excessive red meat, but life is too short and I enjoy red meat so much more than vegan alternatives and feel the need for one daily portion of meat to enjoy life to the full. My friend's daughter has a Master's degree in nutrition and disagrees with her Dad's vegan crusade. She insists that the important thing is what else you eat: a high fiber diet that includes e. g. kale, spinach, chard, beets, beans nuts, berries, and real whole grain bread, especially Ezekiel bread. But even she agrees that processed meat is bad for you.

There is certainty that eating meals without animal products and processed foods is much better and will be very effective for us to avoid cancers, heart attacks, strokes, high blood pressure, diabetes 2, rheumatoid arthritis, and a long list of other problems, even reversing such. I cannot believe God did not mean that for us, and the design in the beginning is showing that. See www.forksoverknives.com when you can, even the documentary, and the FOK Plan book.

For sake of discussion I will avoid using the references where Jesus eats the Passover meal, which he would have done throughout his life. I am avoiding using those verses as they do not explicitly show him eating the meat. That said, it would have been unthinkable for him to not eat the lamb as part of the feast/celebration/ritual.
The most explicit verse we see is Luke 24:40-43
And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

Further, while the verses do not show Him eating the fish, we see several miracles where Jesus multiplies fish to feed other people as well as enabling the disciples to catch fish to kill and eat/sell.

You may as well avoid other mentions for the sake of the discussion, there is only the one. Again this is argument from an understanding of Jesus having to do something, not that he, the Lamb, who was the prophesied one from the symbolisms, chose such.

You don't know that I am aware of Passover meals in some homes had without meat.

Look carefully at cited passages, I have said I considered these before, even spoke of these in posts before, probably in this thread too, already. Jesus used miracles for something. He took the fishermen away from fishing, to fish for men's souls, not to go back to fishing. And it was a miracle being used, that is neglected. And with the multiplication to feed thousands, why were there all the crumbs, but no bones or anything from fish?

I am suspicious justifiably of that passage after Christ's resurrection. He asked if they had anything to eat, not if they had fish. And what happened to the honeycomb? Why are you not mentioning that? I can guess why you don't. Jesus ate it, one thing only. So you don't want to say it was not fish. It was a lesson that he was really alive again, not a statement of what he endorsed to eat. Stop trying so hard.

His own brother James was never eating meat, why would Jesus have been but not any of his brothers?

Why do you say Luke 24 is not explicit?

They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

What is not explicit about that? Luke's entire intention is to be explicit that Jesus did, indeed, actually eat that fish to prove that Jesus was not an incorporeal ghost.

Yeah, it wasn't explicit, it is not about what Jesus endorsed, but you have to ignore that there was honeycomb.

You misread my post. I said

bolding added for emphasis

I agree, it is a clear example of Jesus eating fish, even actually asking for it.

But not that he really asked for fish. That is not there.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

early believers are known to have believed that he did not eat meat.

Where is evidence for this?

 

[Berserk]

"When they had gone ashore, they saw a charcoal fire there with fish on it...Jesus said, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught...Come and have breakfast." (John 21:9-12)."
Jesus is celebrated for His miraculous meat-eating festival in the feeding of the 5,000 and later in the feeding of the 4,000.
"THE WEAK eat only vegetables (Romans 14:2)."
Case closed!

 

[FireDragon76]

Where is evidence for this?

The Catholic practice of eating fish on Fridays probably owes its origins to Jewish dietary practices, since fish isn't considered meat under Halachic law. An early group called the Ebionites, who believed in an adoptionist Christology, but were otherwise Jewish, did not eat mammals or birds.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The Catholic practice of eating fish on Fridays probably owes its origins to Jewish dietary practices, since fish isn't considered meat under Halachic law. An early group called the Ebionites, who believed in an adoptionist Christology, but were otherwise Jewish, did not eat mammals or birds.

Got anything better?

 

[tampasteve]

I appreciate your time in the reply, it is clear that we won't see eye to eye on this subject, both of us believing the other to be misinformed and/or ignoring scripture and custom. That's OK, the issue of veganism isn't a salvific one.

 

[FredVB]

Where is evidence for this?

I had something in mind I could not find to show it, but there is this:

“They [the Apostles] embraced and persevered in a strenuous and a laborious life, with fasting and abstinence from wine and meat.” (Eusebius, church father, Demonstratio Evangelica or “Proof of the Gospels”)

More from Saint Peter: Peter said, “I live on olives and bread, to which I rarely only add vegetables.” (Clementine Homilies 12,6; also see, Recognitions 7,6) And the earlier quoted vegetarian verse attributed to Peter is worth repeating again here: “The unnatural eating of flesh meats is as polluting as the heathen worship of devils, with its sacrifices and its impure feasts, through participation in it a man becomes a fellow eater with devils.” (Saint Peter, Clementine Homilies)

Matthew: “And happiness is found in the practice of virtue. Accordingly, the Apostle Matthew partook of seeds, and nuts, hard-shelled fruits, and vegetables, without flesh.” (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, Book 2, Chapter 1)

The Apostle Thomas: “He continually fasts and prays, and abstaining from the eating of flesh and the drinking wine, he eats only bread with salt, drinks only water, and wears the same garment in fine weather and winter, accepting nothing from anyone, and gives whatever he has to others.” (Acts of Thomas, chapter 20)

“John never ate meat.” (Church historian Hegesipp according to Eusebius, History of the Church II 2:3)

James the Just, Brother of Jesus, Head Apostle and the Next Leader of the Church, was a Vegetarian​

Jesus had a brother. He’s referred to by scholars and historians as “James the Just”. According to a wide variety of sources, James became Jesus’s spiritual successor, the next leader of this group, referred to as the “Hebrew Christians” or “Ebionites”.

“James was a vegetarian.” (Prof. Robert Eisenman in, James the Just, The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls)

“James, the brother of the Lord, lived on seeds and plants and touched neither meat nor wine.” (Epistulae ad Faustum XXII, 3)

“James, the brother of the Lord was holy from his mothers womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh.” (Hegesippus, quoted in The Church History of Eusebius, book 2, chapter 23)

And furthermore, wouldn’t everyone in Jesus’s family — brothers and sisters — be following the same diet and ethical code? On what planet would parents raise one child vegetarian from birth but another gets raised as a meat-eater?

Keith Akers makes some great observations in his article, Was Jesus A Vegetarian? “Eusebius says that James the brother of Jesus was a vegetarian, and in fact was evidently raised as a vegetarian (Ecclesiastical History 2.23). Why would Jesus’ parents have raised James as a vegetarian, unless they were vegetarian themselves and raised Jesus as a vegetarian as well? Eusebius also states (Proof of the Gospel 3.5) that all the Apostles abstained from meat and wine.”

And James became the successor of Christ and next leader.

"When they had gone ashore, they saw a charcoal fire there with fish on it...Jesus said, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught...Come and have breakfast." (John 21:9-12)."
Jesus is celebrated for His miraculous meat-eating festival in the feeding of the 5,000 and later in the feeding of the 4,000.
"THE WEAK eat only vegetables (Romans 14:2)."
Case closed!

Case closed? Jesus is not shown eating, and it is a miracle shown, taking men away from fishing. You clearly use passages addressing something else, so that it is strawman argument, and if not, it is not the purpose of the passage to direct you to call others weak believers. Really, shame.

 

[FredVB]

Paul goes on to say we who “eat everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does.” Vegetarian and meat-eater must both “give thanks to God” when they eat and must show love to every brother and sister in Christ.

Still God really hates abuse to animals, creatures of God's creation. Industry using animals for products to meet demand, which makes their business, is full of animal abuse. And while you eat meat without blood having been drained from it, you error to say you have permission from God for that.

The apostle Matthew partook of seeds and nuts and vegetables without flesh.
Clement of Alexandria (The Instructor, book 2, chapter 1).

Peter said, "I live on olives and bread to which I rarely only add vegetables."
Pseudo-Clementine Homolies 12,6; also Recognitions 7,6.

James, the brother of the Lord ... was holy from his mothers womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh.
Hegesippus, quoted in The Church History of Eusebius, book 2, chapter 23.

And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food".
Genesis 1:29-30

Then I will make a covenant on behalf of Israel with the wild beasts, the birds of the air, and the things that creep on the earth, and I will break bow and sword and weapon of war and sweep them off the earth so that all living creatures may lie down without fear.
Hosea 2:18

The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
And the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
And a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall feed;
Their young shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The suckling child shall play over the hole of the asp,
And the weaned child shall put his hand on the adders den.
They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain;
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 11:6-9

He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.
Revelations 21:4

The Lord is good to all men, and his tender care rests upon all his creatures.
Psalms 145:9

Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow and reap and store in barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them.
*lMatthew 6:26

A righteous man cares for his beast.
Proverbs 12:10

When you see the ass of someone who hates you lying helpless under its load, however unwilling you may be to help it, you must give him a hand with it.
Exodus 23:5

When you see your fellow countrymans ass or ox lying on the road, do not ignore it; you must help him to lift it to its feet again.
Deuteronomy 22:4

He who slaughters an ox is like him who kills a man.
Isaiah 66:3

Your countless sacrifices, what are they to me? says the Lord. I am sated with whole-offerings of rams and the fat of buffaloes; I have no desire for the blood of bulls, of sheep and of he-goats. Whenever you come into my presence - who asked you for this? No more shall you trample my courts. The offer of your gifts is useless, the reek of sacrifice is abhorrent to me.
Isaiah 1:11-12

There is blood on your hands; wash yourselves and be clean.
Isaiah 1:16

For a desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

If you had known what that text means, "I require mercy, not sacrifice", you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matthew 12:7

Sacrifices were invented by men to be a pretext for eating flesh.
Clement of Alexandria

The eating of meat was unknown up to the big flood, but since the flood they have the strings and stinking juices of animal meat into our mouths, just as they threw in front of the grumbling sensual people in the desert. Jesus Christ, who appeared when the time had been fulfilled, has again joined the end with the beginning, so that it is no longer allowed for us to eat animal meat.
St Jerome

The steam of meat meals darkens the spirit. One can hardly have virtue if one enjoys meat meals and feasts. In the earthly paradise there was no wine, no one sacrificed animals, and no one ate meat.
St Basil

All things of creation are children of the Father and thus brothers of man ... God wants us to help animals, if they need help. Every creature in distress has the same right to be protected.
St Francis of Assisi

Let no one regard as light the burden of his responsibility. While so much ill-treatment of animals goes on, while the moans of thirsty animals in railway trucks sound unheard, while so much brutality prevails in our slaughterhouses ... we all bear guilt. Everything that lives has value as a living thing, as one of the manifestations of the mystery that is life.
Albert Schweitzer

I still have not even found the evidence I have seen and was thinking about, I will share it if I find that again, yet none of this should be disregarded.

 

[trophy33]

Neither Jews nor any other nation around them were vegan. They ate a lot of fish and sometimes pork or lamb.

Cruelty is an issue regulations are for. No death is pleasant, but it does not have to be cruel.

Vegan alternatives to meat are absurdly expensive and therefore many people would be without proper nutrition, if they stopped eating meat and diary. And cereals are full of allergens. Fruit and vegetables, if not expensive bio, are also quite of low quality and frequently with harmful chemicals.

 

[FredVB]

Neither Jews nor any other nation around them were vegan. They ate a lot of fish and sometimes pork or lamb.

Cruelty is an issue regulations are for. No death is pleasant, but it does not have to be cruel.

Vegan alternatives to meat are absurdly expensive and therefore many people would be without proper nutrition, if they stopped eating meat and diary. And cereals are full of allergens. Fruit and vegetables, if not expensive bio, are also quite of low quality and frequently with harmful chemicals.

Your argument is all over the place here. What time are you addressing? Now, there are many in any group who eat fish, pork, or lamb. There are also a number of vegans in any of those groups. If you mean earlier times, say so. There was still the people of the original times who did not eat anything of animals. It was not part of the design, as was clearly communicated. There certainly were people not eating anything from animals, at least from some point in their lives, early in history. Have you ever heard of the Pythagoreans, or not? In the Bible there were those Israelite captives in Babylonia who determined that they would not eat anything but the vegetables, which might be with fruit included, available in Babylonia. They were certainly fine with that, in good health and being counted the wisest. That corresponds the good health that has become known to had from eating whole foods from plants. There were certainly other early people who did not have meat from animals, really, who I could speak of.

Regulations are not stopping cruelty! Where do you get that thinking from?? What happens in the industries and businesses using animals is not according to what the Bible says should be treatment of animals. The slaughter there is cruel. I can't even show it with a link without my post being removed! Why do you think that is??

I am not speaking for having meat alternatives, ever. The healthy way is not expensive, it does not include vegan meat alternatives, and I am poor.

 

[trophy33]

Regulations are not stopping cruelty! Where do you get that thinking from??

Animal welfare

With the support and close co-operation of the EU countries, the European Commission has been promoting animal welfare for over 40 years gradually...

food.ec.europa.eu

The EU preparing legislative to end the cages for farm animals:

ECI ‘End the Cage Age’

‘End the Cage Age’ calls on the Commission to propose legislation to prohibit the use of cages for many EU farmed animals

food.ec.europa.eu

Common standards, for example during transportation; even children in schools are taught about animal welfare:

I am not speaking for having meat alternatives, ever. The healthy way is not expensive, it does not include vegan meat alternatives, and I am poor.

If you want a healthy, varied and balanced nutrition (high quality proteins, healthy fats, enough of collagen etc), its expensive, if you live in an industrialized nation and in a city.

The more restrictions you apply (for example if it must be built only on non-animal products), the more difficult and expensive it will be.

Another problem with veganism is that its not natural for our body. Humanity evolved to be hunters and gatherers. Agriculture came much later and many people have problems with agricultural products (gastrointestinal discomforts, allergies, even serious ones). Some individuals may feel better on a vegan diet, some feel better on a carnivore diet. There is no one diet for all. The vast majority of humanity is not evolved to eat only fruit and vegetables, even new ones, from exotic countries, which have never been a natural part of their diet in their area.

Another problem is that to be satisfied with the nutrition, you will need much higher amount of food, because both fruit and vegetables are poor for macronutrients and full of water. Sugar in fruit is not too healthy and vegetable is not too tasty, even small children do not want it. Most of taste is in fats and the food satisfaction comes from fats and proteins, thats what our body evolved to prefer for eating.

Biblically, many patriarchs (starting with Abel) were shepherds. Do you think that Abel or Isaac were cruel to animals? Even God is depicted as a good shepherd many times - thats how common livestock was in the biblical cultures, next to hunting. There were also many animal sacrifices ordered in the Mosaic Law.

Most people eat too much meat. But most people eat/drink too much generally, thats why they are so unhealthy. Eating a poor kind of food is not a solution, though.

It could be preferable to have some vegan meat substitute (protein and fats) with similar nutrition values to meat or some lab grown meat that is not sentient. However, we are not so far yet and it would not help our current animals - they would need to die anyway. Only new ones would not be born anymore. So the most sustainable way, currently, is to be kind to them and to limit their discomfort as much as possible. And to prefer meat and dairy from certified bio farms.

 

[FredVB]

Animal welfare

With the support and close co-operation of the EU countries, the European Commission has been promoting animal welfare for over 40 years gradually...

food.ec.europa.eu

The EU preparing legislative to end the cages for farm animals:

ECI ‘End the Cage Age’

‘End the Cage Age’ calls on the Commission to propose legislation to prohibit the use of cages for many EU farmed animals

food.ec.europa.eu

Common standards, for example during transportation; even children in schools are taught about animal welfare:

If you want a healthy, varied and balanced nutrition (high quality proteins, healthy fats, enough of collagen etc), its expensive, if you live in an industrialized nation and in a city.

The more restrictions you apply (for example if it must be built only on non-animal products), the more difficult and expensive it will be.

Another problem with veganism is that its not natural for our body. Humanity evolved to be hunters and gatherers. Agriculture came much later and many people have problems with agricultural products (gastrointestinal discomforts, allergies, even serious ones). Some individuals may feel better on a vegan diet, some feel better on a carnivore diet. There is no one diet for all. The vast majority of humanity is not evolved to eat only fruit and vegetables, even new ones, from exotic countries, which have never been a natural part of their diet in their area.

Another problem is that to be satisfied with the nutrition, you will need much higher amount of food, because both fruit and vegetables are poor for macronutrients and full of water. Sugar in fruit is not too healthy and vegetable is not too tasty, even small children do not want it. Most of taste is in fats and the food satisfaction comes from fats and proteins, thats what our body evolved to prefer for eating.

Biblically, many patriarchs (starting with Abel) were shepherds. Do you think that Abel or Isaac were cruel to animals? Even God is depicted as a good shepherd many times - thats how common livestock was in the biblical cultures, next to hunting. There were also many animal sacrifices ordered in the Mosaic Law.

Most people eat too much meat. But most people eat/drink too much generally, thats why they are so unhealthy. Eating a poor kind of food is not a solution, though.

It could be preferable to have some vegan meat substitute (protein and fats) with similar nutrition values to meat or some lab grown meat that is not sentient. However, we are not so far yet and it would not help our current animals - they would need to die anyway. Only new ones would not be born anymore. So the most sustainable way, currently, is to be kind to them and to limit their discomfort as much as possible. And to prefer meat and dairy from certified bio farms.

I am not in Europe though, but I speak to what is really happening here. But changes that would come where you are tell me they have not come yet. And what about all the other points I raise? If you say it is not a healthy way, you have not looked at the information, that was showing, and the biblical history showing what God wanted most.