Vaccine mandates and passports - a complete failure

[J Michael]

Dear expos4ever and probinson,

Derek1111's question was right on the mark. And yet expos4ever, you think it's funny that you're wasting a fair bit of your precious life with this? Kinda sad, really. I'm thinking you 2 could go on arguing ad nauseum and neither of you will have budged an inch (do you even have inches anymore in Canada?).

One of my all time favorite priests was Orthodox Fr. Thomas Hopko, of blessed memory. He wrote out a list of 55 Maxims that he said were necessary for a sound Christian life. I'd draw your attention to #43 and #44 in particular. (And I will freely admit that I am pretty terrible at following them, myself!) Here they are, from Fr. Thomas Hopko: 55 Maxims for Christian Living :

1. Be always with Christ.
2. Pray as you can, not as you want.
3. Have a keepable rule of prayer that you do by discipline.
4. Say the Lord’s Prayer several times a day.
5. Have a short prayer that you constantly repeat when your mind is not occupied with other things.
6. Make some prostrations when you pray.
7. Eat good foods in moderation.
8. Keep the Church’s fasting rules.
9. Spend some time in silence every day.
10. Do acts of mercy in secret.
11. Go to liturgical services regularly
12. Go to confession and communion regularly.
13. Do not engage intrusive thoughts and feelings. Cut them off at the start.
14. Reveal all your thoughts and feelings regularly to a trusted person.
15. Read the scriptures regularly.
16. Read good books a little at a time.
17. Cultivate communion with the saints.
18. Be an ordinary person.
19. Be polite with everyone.
20. Maintain cleanliness and order in your home.
21. Have a healthy, wholesome hobby.
22. Exercise regularly.
23. Live a day, and a part of a day, at a time.
24. Be totally honest, first of all, with yourself.
25. Be faithful in little things.
26. Do your work, and then forget it.
27. Do the most difficult and painful things first.
28. Face reality.
29. Be grateful in all things.
30. Be cheerfull.
31. Be simple, hidden, quiet and small.
32. Never bring attention to yourself.
33. Listen when people talk to you.
34. Be awake and be attentive.
35. Think and talk about things no more than necessary.
36. When we speak, speak simply, clearly, firmly and directly.
37. Flee imagination, analysis, figuring things out.
38. Flee carnal, sexual things at their first appearance.
39. Don’t complain, mumble, murmur or whine.
40. Don’t compare yourself with anyone.
41. Don’t seek or expect praise or pity from anyone.
42. We don’t judge anyone for anything.
43. Don’t try to convince anyone of anything.
44. Don’t defend or justify yourself.
45. Be defined and bound by God alone.
46. Accept criticism gratefully but test it critically.
47. Give advice to others only when asked or obligated to do so.
48. Do nothing for anyone that they can and should do for themselves.
49. Have a daily schedule of activities, avoiding whim and caprice.
50. Be merciful with yourself and with others.
51. Have no expectations except to be fiercely tempted to your last breath.
52. Focus exclusively on God and light, not on sin and darkness.
53. Endure the trial of yourself and your own faults and sins peacefully, serenely, because you know that God’s mercy is greater than your brokenness.
54. When we fall, get up immediately and start over.
55. Get help when you need it, without fear and without shame.

 

[probinson]

More diversion.

No rational person would evaluate the effectiveness of any program by examining the history of how that program came to be initiated.

Since you're bringing this up, again, here is the unscientific, data-poor, politically-driven timeline of how "boosters" came to be without clinical studies, advisory committees, or anything that any sane, logical person would expect should happen with regards to medical research and recommendations, and how the age-range slowly expanded to include younger and younger people at almost no risk, with no evidence of benefit.

Boosters for Men 16-40: A Regulatory Gamble

WHO says there's no evidence healthy children and adolescents need Covid boosters

 

[probinson]

Can you provide any evidence that the dropping of these mandates are connected to evidence that they did not work?

You wouldn't be trying to pass off the withdrawing of mandates for reasons other than demonstrated ineffectiveness as evidence that mandates do not work, would you?

So why do you think that mandates are being withdrawn?

 

[probinson]

I see no evidence for this at all.

Then you are simply not paying attention.

I suggest you spend some time reading about the collateral damage that COVID restrictions have caused. It's not pretty.

There is a virus out there,

There are A LOT of viruses out there. The myopic focus on this one has been disastrous for public health as a whole.

Responsible governments protect their citizens even if these means temporary restrictions on freedom.

I for one am shocked to see the complete and unending trust that some people have placed in their governments.

There is zero evidence - only fevered speculations - that any of these measures will be permanent.

Sure. You keep telling yourself that.

Meanwhile back here in reality, we're on day 680 of our 15 days to slow the spread.

 

[probinson]

Dear expos4ever and probinson,

Derek1111's question was right on the mark.

I appreciate the feedback, but there are times I wade into the conversation and times that I don't. While I may not always strike that balance correctly, this thread has given me an opportunity to post data, links, and compelling evidence that many people otherwise would never have seen.

I am not trying to convince expos4ever of anything. But the positive feedback and PM conversations this discussion has generated for me tells me that it is absolutely not a waste of my time.

 

[expos4ever]

So why do you think that mandates are being withdrawn?

I have no idea. But if they are being withdrawn because they have not worked, it is your responsibility to make this case. Surely you have to understand that mandates can be withdrawn for a wide range of reasons that have nothing to do with their effectiveness.

 

[expos4ever]

But the positive feedback and PM conversations this discussion has generated for me tells me that it is absolutely not a waste of my time.

Same for me.

 

[probinson]

I have no idea. But if they are being withdrawn because they have not worked, it is your responsibility to make this case.

Yeah, not really.

When the Czech government rescinded their mandate, they made reference to divisiveness.

Starbucks lied about why they were doing it, saying they were abiding by the Supreme Court's ruling. But the court didn't rule that individual businesses couldn't enforce their own private mandates, so we're left to speculate why Starbuck (with nearly 250,000 employees nationwide) decided to end it.

Some of the healthcare institutes that dropped mandates cited labor shortages.

But all of this is rather interesting, in that it illustrates there is a cost to vaccine mandates, which no one seems to want to acknowledge.

 

[lifepsyop]

As the push for vaccine mandates accelerated last year, one of the most prominent messages was that the vaccines were "to protect other people", and not only oneself. This messaging was necessary in an attempt to justify why people who don't want it, should have to get it anyways. And everyone who was pro-vaccine was saying it, and saying it loudly: Basically, that one is a horrible evil selfish person if they do not make a sacrifice for their neighbor by getting the shot. Mandate advocates were repeating this talking point over and over again, because it was the only way to justify mass mandates. If the vaccine is not protecting others, then there's no valid reason to force someone who doesn't want it, to get it.

However, over the past couple of months, the pro-vaccine messaging has mysteriously abandoned this talking point. Instead, now you will only hear from the mandate advocates that the vaccine "reduces risk of serious illness and death"...
(a conveniently vague claim because, unless they already have serious health issues, people generally already have a very low risk of serious illness and death due to Covid)

It's common to hear from vaccine-mandators now that "Nobody ever said it would stop transmission. The point is that the vaccine reduces risk of serious illness or death"... Yet if one were to do a search on pro-mandate arguments from last year, the central argument was that getting the vaccine will help protect one's community from transmission of the virus.

The way that Mandators change their reality, week to week, is a stunning thing to behold. They argue the opposite of what they argued for yesterday and will walk through walls of self-contradiction without blinking. All that seems to matter is that you agree with them and accept their movement as authoritative. Pointing out their errors only seems to increase their solidarity.

Even after everything we've learned, they are proposing mandatory Covid vaccinations for all schoolchildren now. They just can't stop.

For me, watching this social phenomenon unfold, the Bible feels much more relatable. The way the Psalms describe "the nations raging"... the riots in Greek cities in the book of Acts, the way that societies would be driven into blind rages and uproars when their idols were challenged. It makes a lot more sense now.

 

[probinson]

A discussion about vaccines and boosters with Dr. Paul Offit. It's definitely worth your time if you care about the truth;

 

[J Michael]

I appreciate the feedback, but there are times I wade into the conversation and times that I don't. While I may not always strike that balance correctly, this thread has given me an opportunity to post data, links, and compelling evidence that many people otherwise would never have seen.

I am not trying to convince expos4ever of anything. But the positive feedback and PM conversations this discussion has generated for me tells me that it is absolutely not a waste of my time.

Okay. Fair enough. For what it's worth you haven't said anything at all (I haven't read through the whole thread) that I would disagree with regarding this whole issue.

What you and your "buddy" expos4ever , might have missed is the following 5+ hours of compelling testimony, comment, and discussion about Covid-19, conducted by Sen. Ron Johnson at the Senate yesterday. Some of the participant/witnesses include Dr. Peter McCullough, Dr. Robert Malone, Dr. Pierre Kory, Dr. Paul Marik, and a host of others, including some frontline nurses. Some of it is highly emotional. While I'm pretty familiar with what has and hasn't been going on regarding Covid and the "pandemic" there was much that I wasn't aware of or didn't know. Some pretty shocking stuff. Anyway, here's the link to the whole thing:
COVID-19: A Second Opinion

It probably wouldn't hurt expos4ever to view some of it, too . Enjoy!

 

[alertandawake]

As the push for vaccine mandates accelerated last year, one of the most prominent messages was that the vaccines were "to protect other people", and not only oneself. This messaging was necessary in an attempt to justify why people who don't want it, should have to get it anyways. And everyone who was pro-vaccine was saying it, and saying it loudly: Basically, that one is a horrible evil selfish person if they do not make a sacrifice for their neighbor by getting the shot. Mandate advocates were repeating this talking point over and over again, because it was the only way to justify mass mandates. If the vaccine is not protecting others, then there's no valid reason to force someone who doesn't want it, to get it.

However, over the past couple of months, the pro-vaccine messaging has mysteriously abandoned this talking point. Instead, now you will only hear from the mandate advocates that the vaccine "reduces risk of serious illness and death"...
(a conveniently vague claim because, unless they already have serious health issues, people generally already have a very low risk of serious illness and death due to Covid)

It's common to hear from vaccine-mandators now that "Nobody ever said it would stop transmission. The point is that the vaccine reduces risk of serious illness or death"... Yet if one were to do a search on pro-mandate arguments from last year, the central argument was that getting the vaccine will help protect one's community from transmission of the virus.

The way that Mandators change their reality, week to week, is a stunning thing to behold. They argue the opposite of what they argued for yesterday and will walk through walls of self-contradiction without blinking. All that seems to matter is that you agree with them and accept their movement as authoritative. Pointing out their errors only seems to increase their solidarity.

Even after everything we've learned, they are proposing mandatory Covid vaccinations for all schoolchildren now. They just can't stop.

For me, watching this social phenomenon unfold, the Bible feels much more relatable. The way the Psalms describe "the nations raging"... the riots in Greek cities in the book of Acts, the way that societies would be driven into blind rages and uproars when their idols were challenged. It makes a lot more sense now.

I do recall the early stages, get vaccinated protect your loved ones and your community, but as you pointed out we have gone from "protection" to "reduces risk of serious illness and death".

Look at what is happening in other countries with vaccine mandates, things are getting real bad. Look what happened in Germany not long ago with the torch-bearing protesters.

What I have notice we have gone from 2 shots to requiring a 3rd shot, and now in places a 4th shot. So if 2 shots don't work, if the 3rd shot still doesn't work, and if the 4th shot is still not good enough then what? Are we suppose to line up to get boosters indefinitely? So a person cannot go out in public places or to their workplace unless said person has been updated with the latest upgrade? This is absurd.

Here is a question. What will constant booster shots do to us as time goes by? I think this is a very good question.

 

[expos4ever]

But all of this is rather interesting, in that it illustrates there is a cost to vaccine mandates, which no one seems to want to acknowledge.

Bottom Line: You have prevented no evidence that mandates are being withdrawn due to their lack of effectiveness - i.e. that they do not work.

 

[expos4ever]

However, over the past couple of months, the pro-vaccine messaging has mysteriously abandoned this talking point. Instead, now you will only hear from the mandate advocates that the vaccine "reduces risk of serious illness and death"...

There is no mystery at all. Like others, you are trying to spin this into a "you were lied to" narrative when the reality is far more pedestrian: with Omicron, the vaccine is not all that effective against transmission, but it is highly effective against hospitalization. So, as the facts on the ground so does the messaging.

Perfectly legit - no bogeyman here.

 

[expos4ever]

It's common to hear from vaccine-mandators now that "Nobody ever said it would stop transmission.

Evidence please. I suggest the truth is this: In the past, proponents of vaccine mandates would argue that they would reduce transmission. Which they did - again no bogeyman. With omicron, the vaccines are not that effective in reducing transmission, but they do something very important - they reduce hospitalization. So now, proponents of vaccine mandates are, appropriately, changing their messaging.

Where, exactly, is the problem?

 

[expos4ever]

The way that Mandators change their reality, week to week, is a stunning thing to behold. They argue the opposite of what they argued for yesterday and will walk through walls of self-contradiction without blinking. All that seems to matter is that you agree with them and accept their movement as authoritative. Pointing out their errors only seems to increase their solidarity.

Again, this is misleading. The only reason mandators changed their messaging is that the facts on the ground have changed - before omicron, the vaccines were effective at preventing transmission. Omicron changed all that.

It is the virus that has changed - the reasons for supporting mandates have evolved in response to this.

 

[probinson]

Bottom Line: You have prevented no evidence that mandates are being withdrawn due to their lack of effectiveness - i.e. that they do not work.

Well allrighty then. Let the gaslighting continue!

 

[probinson]

There is no mystery at all. Like others, you are trying to spin this into a "you were lied to"

You were lied to. And if you'd take 10 minutes to read these articles, you'd see how;

Public Health's Truth Problem

The U.S. Government’s Noble Lies About COVID-19

 

[probinson]

Evidence please. I suggest the truth is this: In the past, proponents of vaccine mandates would argue that they would reduce transmission. Which they did - again no bogeyman. With omicron, the vaccines are not that effective in reducing transmission, but they do something very important - they reduce hospitalization. So now, proponents of vaccine mandates are, appropriately, changing their messaging.

Where, exactly, is the problem?

Neither assertion had any real evidence to support it.

Pfizer wisely (for them) unblinded the control group right at the time it would have started to become evident that protection was waning, and that vaccines weren't stopping transmission. Public health and governments desperately seeking for good news lapped it up, regulatory agencies were complicit, and a public paralyzed by fear embraced it.

Pfizer also wisely (for them) decided to define "vaccinated" as 2 doses plus 2 weeks so that all of the initial, short-term negative vaccine efficacy could be lumped in with "unvaccinated" people, and stacked the deck in their favor.

And as is evident by this thread, there is a large portion of the population that just doesn't care, and will bend over backward to do whatever Pfizer and/or their governments tell them to do.

 

[expos4ever]

Well allrighty then. Let the gaslighting continue!

Let us be clear about something. You have repeatedly asserted that mandates do not work. To wit:

Instead of trying to spin it away, perhaps show some data that illustrates that vaccine mandates have resulted in lower hospitalizations. But we both know you can't do that, because the data doesn't show that at all.

What you characterize as gaslighting is merely proper debate procedures and holding you to account for your many, many misrepresentations. In post 343, if not elsewhere, you strongly imply that mandates are being withdrawn because they do not work. Here is the relevant exchange:

Can you provide any evidence that the dropping of these mandates are connected to evidence that they did not work?

So why do you think that mandates are being withdrawn?

Now then: Where is the evidence that these mandates (that were withdrawn) were withdrawn specifically because they were determined to be ineffective, and not for some other reason?