Vaccine mandates and passports - a complete failure

[probinson]

So in the last week or so, I've personally seen dozens of fully vaccinated, sometimes boosted people testing positive for COVID. In fact, nearly everyone that I know that's tested positive recently is at least fully vaccinated.

There have been outbreaks on fully vaccinated cruise ships. Colleges with 99%+ vaccination rates with enforced masking have had outbreaks. Hundreds of NFL players who are fully vaccinated have tested positive. Dr. Fauci even conceded last week that just about everyone is going to get COVID, regardless of their vaccination status.

So can someone remind me again why we have vaccine mandates and passports? Wasn't it because they were supposed to prevent infections? To prevent transmissions? To prevent symptomatic disease and keep the "unclean", unvaccinated people away so that all of these infections would stop spreading so rapidly?

Of course, anyone paying attention can see that vaccines have been a complete failure at preventing infection and disease transmission. An admission that everyone is "probably" going to get COVID regardless of their vaccination status is an admission not of "rare" breakthrough cases, but a 100% breakthrough infection rate. Heck, even the Pfizer CEO had to admit last week that 2 doses of the Pfizer vaccine isn't going to provide you much, if any, protection from the Omicron variant.

So why the continued push for vaccine mandates and passports? As I've been told all throughout this pandemic, the science changes. If vaccines prevented infection and transmission, at least there would be some scientific reasoning for them. But now that we know vaccines don't stop infection or transmission, what is the justification for vaccines mandates and passports? Shouldn't we re-evaluate the science and realize that mandates and passports have failed in their stated goals?

 

[pdudgeon]

So what are the people that have been vaccinated supposed to do now?
Class action lawsuits spring to mind...
But they won't help in the long run.

My guess would be a long-term case study to see what the real effects of the vaccines actually are,
and if/whether the effects of the vaccines can be reversed.

Good luck on that last one!

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Covid is not longer about health, but about money and power. I don't want to downplay covid, it is more deadly than just a flu, it can really damage your lungs, and I do not wish hard covid on anyone. That being said, I too know young and healthy who had some serious side effects from the vaccine and more and more people share their stories about blood related issues since taking one of the jabs, causing some to take blood thinners or they have heart problems.
If there as risks then the vaccine cannot be mandatory.

In my birth country Slovakia, scientist warned not to jab the children, the government however said they don't care, because pfizer said they can jab children, so they do. Yeah like big pharmas who make billions will ever say 'stop vaccinating'.

Not to mentioned the un-jabbed in my country are only allowed to go to food shops where they are only allowed to buy certain items (like the virus will only affect you depending on what you buy). What sort of evil is this? And if that's not enough, the government threatens to take medical licence off doctors who speak against the vaccine (they are not necessary against vaccines, just point out that there are side effects and that young people do not need it and they speak out against the big pharmas who are run like a business and care about the money). What sort of tyranny is this?

Too many red flags are raised with all this treatment against the people who do not take the vaccine, to the point I wonder if this was all planned, and why they take such extreme measures to get everyone jabbed, especially now with Omicron that is far less deadly than the previous variants that they already started with 2nd booster jabs.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Vaccine and mask mandates have proven incompetent in stopping the spread of Covid. They are however very useful in dividing people into competing groups and increasing power for those that covet more of that. Creating group enemies for people to group together to hate is a tactic that has worked exceedingly well for those interested in wielding dictatorial power. Meanwhile by further enriching the already wealthy, power becomes even more centralized and concentrated within fewer hands. B If enough people are convinced that X group is the source of all Y group's problems or even better vice c versa, those with power can escape responsibility for their actions by blaming one, or both, of the groups for the consequences of those actions. This tactic works because the members of each group that have become emotionally committed to hating those of the other group and will accept any explanation that includes the other group being the cause of any and every problem. Reason and factual information will not interfere with the absolute commitment to conclude the other group is evil and therefore is ill motivated.

 

[expos4ever]

So in the last week or so, I've personally seen dozens of fully vaccinated, sometimes boosted people testing positive for COVID. In fact, nearly everyone that I know that's tested positive recently is at least fully vaccinated.

There have been outbreaks on fully vaccinated cruise ships. Colleges with 99%+ vaccination rates with enforced masking have had outbreaks. Hundreds of NFL players who are fully vaccinated have tested positive. Dr. Fauci even conceded last week that just about everyone is going to get COVID, regardless of their vaccination status.

Profoundly misleading.

These claim are anecdotal and I guarantee that evidence from credible sources demonstrates the vaccines are effective. In this respect, I will point out something that anti-vaxxers often try to get away with - they focus on the matter of how well the vaccines prevent infection rather than on the more important matter of how well they prevent serious illness and death.

And on that matter, there is no doubt - vaccines substantially reduce the risk of serious illness and death.

 

[expos4ever]

Of course, anyone paying attention can see that vaccines have been a complete failure at preventing infection and disease transmission.

False.

A South African study shows that the vaccine is still somewhat effective at preventing transmission:

In the population in the South African study, the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness against infection dropped down to about 30% for the omicron variant, compared with about 80% against the variant before omicron, the scientists reported.

30% is better than 0% (no vaccine).

And this, from an epidemiologist at American University:

The preliminary data about omicron and vaccines is coming in quickly and is revealing lower vaccine effectiveness. Best estimates suggest vaccines are around 30%-40% effective at preventing infections and 70% effective at preventing severe disease.

Again, 30-40% is better than nothing.

 

[expos4ever]

An admission that everyone is "probably" going to get COVID regardless of their vaccination status is an admission not of "rare" breakthrough cases, but a 100% breakthrough infection rate. Heck, even the Pfizer CEO had to admit last week that 2 doses of the Pfizer vaccine isn't going to provide you much, if any, protection from the Omicron variant.

Misleading again.

It may indeed be true that everyone will eventually be infected. But that certainly does not mean the vaccines are not somewhat effective at reducing transmission. Let's unpack this. A 30% percent reduction in transmission for vaccinated people can still lead to a situation where everyone get infected - it just takes more time. And with overwhelmed hospitals, this difference is huge.

Let's be clear: anti-vaxxer trade entirely on error and/or willful deception - the science is entirely against them.

 

[grasping the after wind]

False.

A South African study shows that the vaccine is still somewhat effective at preventing transmission:

In the population in the South African study, the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness against infection dropped down to about 30% for the omicron variant, compared with about 80% against the variant before omicron, the scientists reported.

30% is better than 0% (no vaccine).

And this, from an epidemiologist at American University:

The preliminary data about omicron and vaccines is coming in quickly and is revealing lower vaccine effectiveness. Best estimates suggest vaccines are around 30%-40% effective at preventing infections and 70% effective at preventing severe disease.

Again, 30-40% is better than nothing.

80% is also better than nothing.

 

[expos4ever]

Covid is not longer about health, but about money and power. I don't want to downplay covid, it is more deadly than just a flu, it can really damage your lungs, and I do not wish hard covid on anyone. That being said, I too know young and healthy who had some serious side effects from the vaccine and more and more people share their stories about blood related issues since taking one of the jabs, causing some to take blood thinners or they have heart problems.

Anecdotal. I know a lifelong smoker who lived to 90 - does this mean smoking is not harmful?

The evidence - from credible sources - clearly shows that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks.

If there as risks then the vaccine cannot be mandatory.

Why do you conclude this?

We make lots of things mandatory even though there are risks. For example, there is a small chance that wearing a seatbelt will cause your death in an accident where you would have survived without one. And yet we still mandate seatbelt-wearing.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Anecdotal. I know a lifelong smoker who lived to 90 - does this mean smoking is not harmful?

The evidence - from credible sources - clearly shows that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks.


Why do you conclude this?

We make lots of things mandatory even though there are risks. For example, there is a small chance that wearing a seatbelt will cause your death in an accident where you would have survived without one. And yet we still mandate seatbelt-wearing.

Does the presence in the books of one unjust law mean we ought to increase the power of the executive branch by allowing it to usurp the function of the legislative branch a by issuing unjust government mandates? Seat belt laws are actually laws passed by legislatures through the legislative process not whimsical dictatorial mandates handed down by individuals in executive offices.

 

[Derek1111]

More misleading nonsense dressed up as data, in search of an argument it can support.

Even if Omicron becomes the dominant variant, and many people now contract it as people do the flu or a common cold - and the science on that is way to early to be definitive - as expos4ever rightly says, the symptoms are likely to be milder, the recovery rate higher, the death rate lower, and the risks of long COVID lower.

I get that you don't like masks, but it's probaby time to find something else to be indignant about.

 

[expos4ever]

Does the presence in the books of one unjust law mean we ought to increase the power of the executive branch by allowing it to usurp the function of the legislative branch a by issuing unjust government mandates? Seat belt laws are actually laws passed by legislatures through the legislative process not whimsical dictatorial mandates handed down by individuals in executive offices.

I am not sure what your point is here.

My purpose in this thread has been to point out the disinformation about vaccine effectiveness.

 

[grasping the after wind]

More misleading nonsense dressed up as data, in search of an argument it can support.

Even if Omicron becomes the dominant variant, and many people now contract it as people do the flu or a common cold - and the science on that is way to early to be definitive - as expos4ever rightly says, the symptoms are likely to be milder, the recovery rate higher, the death rate lower, and the risks of long COVID lower.

I get that you don't like masks, but it's probaby time to find something else to be indignant about.

I don't know of any mandates for masks that require the masks actually be effective ones.

If one would buy a decorative piece of cloth hoping to keep a virus from entering or exiting it,
I wager one might be convinced that the device below is good for transporting unwrapped sand.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm strongly suspecting all this is the result of a virus that had been designed to be evasive to both naturally induced iand mRNA-induced immunities.

 

[J Michael]

So what are the people that have been vaccinated supposed to do now?
Class action lawsuits spring to mind...
But they won't help in the long run.

My guess would be a long-term case study to see what the real effects of the vaccines actually are,
and if/whether the effects of the vaccines can be reversed.

Good luck on that last one!

I very seriously doubt you will see any lawsuits, let alone class action ones. The vaccine manufacturers have been granted immunity (no pun intended!) from all liability for their vaccine products. Gee...why would that be, I wonder?

 

[J Michael]

Anecdotal. I know a lifelong smoker who lived to 90 - does this mean smoking is not harmful?

The evidence - from credible sources - clearly shows that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks.
.

You keep mentioning "credible sources". Who are these "credible sources" and what makes them "credible", let alone more credible than sources that you may deem not "credible"?

 

[alertandawake]

So in the last week or so, I've personally seen dozens of fully vaccinated, sometimes boosted people testing positive for COVID. In fact, nearly everyone that I know that's tested positive recently is at least fully vaccinated.

There have been outbreaks on fully vaccinated cruise ships. Colleges with 99%+ vaccination rates with enforced masking have had outbreaks. Hundreds of NFL players who are fully vaccinated have tested positive. Dr. Fauci even conceded last week that just about everyone is going to get COVID, regardless of their vaccination status.

So can someone remind me again why we have vaccine mandates and passports? Wasn't it because they were supposed to prevent infections? To prevent transmissions? To prevent symptomatic disease and keep the "unclean", unvaccinated people away so that all of these infections would stop spreading so rapidly?

Of course, anyone paying attention can see that vaccines have been a complete failure at preventing infection and disease transmission. An admission that everyone is "probably" going to get COVID regardless of their vaccination status is an admission not of "rare" breakthrough cases, but a 100% breakthrough infection rate. Heck, even the Pfizer CEO had to admit last week that 2 doses of the Pfizer vaccine isn't going to provide you much, if any, protection from the Omicron variant.

So why the continued push for vaccine mandates and passports? As I've been told all throughout this pandemic, the science changes. If vaccines prevented infection and transmission, at least there would be some scientific reasoning for them. But now that we know vaccines don't stop infection or transmission, what is the justification for vaccines mandates and passports? Shouldn't we re-evaluate the science and realize that mandates and passports have failed in their stated goals?

It doesn't make sense.

My personal opinion, and I base this on what I see, I think what we are seeing is 2 classes of citizens emerging. One that plays ball and one that doesn't.

The one that goes along with the program will have privileges but the one who does not play ball, will be an outcast from society.

Note I used the word "privileges" but not the word "freedom".

Because no matter what people think, even if you are someone who is considered "fully vaccinated" (what ever that means nowadays, its always changing), you don't have freedoms, you have privileges and possibly other restrictions depending on the environment you are in.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

We make lots of things mandatory even though there are risks. For example, there is a small chance that wearing a seatbelt will cause your death in an accident where you would have survived without one. And yet we still mandate seatbelt-wearing.

Are you really comparing seatbelts with vaccines who are authorised for emergency only? If a seatbelt manufacturer makes a faulty seatbelt, it's their fault. If the vaccine have side effects, no one is responsible.

Besides, the risk of vaccines increases with the younger you are. There is absolutely no need for a young health person who already had covid and has natural immunity to vaccinate. Natural immunity is superior to vaccines which wear out pretty quick, check out what this doctor has to say

. Looks like people will have to get jabbed all the time now. Why? What for? No one speaks against seatbelts, but there are plenty of doctors and experts who do, why? Even if they are in minority, (a lot are just too scared to speak in fear of losing jobs etc.) Why when people who raise question about ethnicity of all of this are being treated as some crazy lunatics, if not criminals? Why they are no open discussions from both sides? Why there is almost no talk of natural immunity and antibodies. Seatbelts are the only way, vaccines aren't as good immunity is superior. Vaccinating elderly and vulnerable makes sense, vaccinating young and healthy doesn't (there is a reason why so many footballers die from heart attacks lately) when the risk of vaccinating the children are greater than benefits.

If the governments cared so much about the health, there would be much bigger push for building a good immune system and healthy life-styles in general, but I guess that doesn't make any more for the big pharmas, who, even you have to admit, don't care about people's good health, but money.

As long as immunity from having had the disease is not recognized, credibility of some of the so called scientists goes out the window.

 

[expos4ever]

You keep mentioning "credible sources". Who are these "credible sources" and what makes them "credible", let alone more credible than sources that you may deem not "credible"?

Credible sources are real medical doctors with degrees from real universities.

There is absolutely nowhere for the antivaxxers to go on this except to appeal to disreputable sources and / or the very rare doctor - the qualified experts are almost unanimous: get the vaccine.

 

[expos4ever]

Besides, the risk of vaccines increases with the younger you are.

Evidence please.

There is absolutely no need for a young health person who already had covid and has natural immunity to vaccinate. Natural immunity is superior to vaccines which wear out pretty quick, check out what this doctor has to say

False. From Johns Hopkins:

Here are recent research studies that support getting vaccinated even if you have already had COVID-19:

Vaccines add protection.

• The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released a report on Oct. 29, 2021, that says getting vaccinated for the coronavirus when you’ve already had COVID-19 significantly enhances your immune protection and further reduces your risk of reinfection.
• A study published in August 2021 indicates that if you had COVID-19 before and are not vaccinated, your risk of getting re-infected is more than two times higher than for those who got vaccinated after having COVID-19.
• Another study published on Nov. 5, 2021, by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) looked at adults hospitalized for COVID-like sickness between January and September 2021. This study found that the chances of these adults testing positive for COVID-19 were 5.49 times higher in unvaccinated people who had COVID-19 in the past than they were for those who had been vaccinated for COVID and had not had an infection before.
• A study from the CDC in September 2021 showed that roughly one-third of those with COVID-19 cases in the study had no apparent natural immunity.