Vaccine mandates and passports - a complete failure

[probinson]

Again, this is misleading. The only reason mandators changed their messaging is that the facts on the ground have changed - before omicron, the vaccines were effective at preventing transmission. Omicron changed all that.

Absolutely false.

As early as July 29, long before Omicron was a thing, the CDC said;

Vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated.​

and

Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.​

This is what led to the reversal of mask recommendations, telling people that were fully vaccinated they should mask up again.

You've also claimed that masks are still "somewhat" effective at stopping transmission throughout this thread, but this too flies in the face of the statement from the Director of the CDC earlier this month. Specifically, Dr. Walensky said;

"...what they can’t do anymore is prevent transmission. So if you're going home to somebody who has not been vaccinated, somebody who can't get vaccinated... I would suggest you wear a mask in a public indoor setting."​

While it is absolutely true that science evolves and recommendations should change based on data, that is not at all what has happened throughout this pandemic.

 

[probinson]

Let us be clear about something. You have repeatedly asserted that mandates do not work. To wit:

Agreed. They don't. And I've shown why.

What you characterize as gaslighting is merely proper debate procedures and holding you to account for your many, many misrepresentations.

If you say so.

Meanwhile in the midst of vaccine and mask mandates a-plenty, there is a veritable mountain of evidence that these mandates have not increased vaccine uptake and have not reduced hospitalizations. The only thing you can do is cling to is your dubious assertion that things would be worse without them, but you can't show any data that suggests that is true.

You claim I've set the bar at an impossible level, but I haven't. There are widely variable levels of vaccination throughout various states and countries. If high levels of vaccination correlated with lower infection and hospitalization rates, you would easily be able to show it. But you cannot.

In post 343, if not elsewhere, you strongly imply that mandates are being withdrawn because they do not work. Here is the relevant exchange:

Quite frankly, I don't care the reasons why people are withdrawing their mandates. And as is the case with Starbucks, I don't expect them to be honest about it anyway.

But the bottom line is, the world is (finally) waking up to the foolishness of vaccine mandates, much to the chagrin of people who have championed them.

 

[probinson]

Let us be clear about something. You have repeatedly asserted that mandates do not work.

No kidding. That might be why the title of this thread is Vaccine mandates and passports - a complete failure.

 

[lifepsyop]

Evidence please. I suggest the truth is this: In the past, proponents of vaccine mandates would argue that they would reduce transmission. Which they did - again no bogeyman. With omicron, the vaccines are not that effective in reducing transmission, but they do something very important - they reduce hospitalization. So now, proponents of vaccine mandates are, appropriately, changing their messaging.

Where, exactly, is the problem?

One of the problems is that the demand for universal mandates has not changed, even though the central argument supporting mandates (preventing transmission) has disappeared. The call for mandates have become detached from any logical premise, and yet they continue full force.

The 'transmission-prevention' argument was used to endlessly guilt trip society into taking the shot. It is now admittedly false to claim that the vaccine stops transmission, and yet the the call for vaccine mandates continues and is even intensifying in scope, despite some recent legal pushback.

The vaccine mandates are increasingly being promoted for young schoolchildren who have a vanishingly low risk of serious illness or death from Covid. Countless healthcare workers forced out of work. Essential transportation is being shut down over mandates. As much as some people would like to legitimize these vaccine mandates, there is simply no sense to it. It is nakedly unreasoned and unscientific and not in the interest of public health.

Notably, the same proponents of these vaccine mandates are typically found supporting a culture of censorship around the issue, advancing the idea that disagreement with them is dangerous and those who disagree should be silenced and removed from public view. This is what one would expect from a movement motivated by ideology rather than actual public health.

 

[expos4ever]

Absolutely false.

As early as July 29, long before Omicron was a thing, the CDC said;

Vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated.​

and

Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.​

Maybe, but but this is a diversion anyway. Even if, repeat even if, the messaging has been dreadfully flawed, this has absolutely nothing to do with whether vaccine mandates work. And they clearly do work, as has been repeatedly demonstrated in this thread.

That is what, I believe, we are discussing.

The virus does not care about messaging. Neither does the vaccine. Both will continue to do what they do regardless of all the political and other machinations.

You, and others, are trying to pull the following ruse on readers: convince them that because the messaging, and the politics, associated with mandates are full of errors, the efficacy of the mandates themselves are in question.

But this is obviously flawed reasoning: The only criteria re the efficacy of the mandates is whether they work in achieving an important objective - history, messaging, politics matter not one whit.

And what evidence we have shows that they do work.

 

[expos4ever]

The call for mandates have become detached from any logical premise, and yet they continue full force.

I do not understand. What I am hearing is that mandates are there to reduce hospitalizations. Vaccines do reduce hospitalizations.

The 'transmission-prevention' argument was used to endlessly guilt trip society into taking the shot. It is now admittedly false to claim that the vaccine stops transmission, and yet the the call for vaccine mandates continues and is even intensifying in scope, despite some recent legal pushback.

This is misleading. When the vaccines were indeed effective at reducing transmission (as was the case a while ago), it was appropriate to advance the "transmission-prevention" argument. This is not a "guilt-trip" - it is sensible public health policy. With omicron, the vaccines are not effective at reducing transmission. But they are effective in preventing hospitalizations. So now this is messaging we are getting.

I see nothing particularly problematic here - as facts on the ground change, we have to adapt.

 

[lifepsyop]

I see nothing particularly problematic here - as facts on the ground change, we have to adapt.

This isn't the reality, though. The push for vaccine-mandates isn't being reevaluated or rescinded. The groups and individuals promoting the mandates have not adapted to the fact that that the main argument and supposed justification used in favor of the mandates no longer exists. They are not responding or adapting. Actually, they want even stricter vaccine mandates, even after losing the fundamental reason that the mandates were promoted in the first place, to prevent transmission of the virus to others.

Are we still pretending that healthy school children need these vaccines? Are we still pretending that firing all those healthcare workers was in the interest of public health?

 

[expos4ever]

This isn't the reality, though. The push for vaccine-mandates isn't being reevaluated or rescinded. The groups and individuals promoting the mandates have not adapted to the fact that that the main argument and supposed justification used in favor of the mandates no longer exists.

This is misleading. The fact that, in the past, mandates were promoted to reduce transmission in no way lessens the argument that such mandates, if implemented today and if effective, would reduce hospitalizations.

There is a clear justification for mandates - reduced hospitalizations.

 

[probinson]

One of the problems is that the demand for universal mandates has not changed, even though the central argument supporting mandates (preventing transmission) has disappeared. The call for mandates have become detached from any logical premise, and yet they continue full force.

The 'transmission-prevention' argument was used to endlessly guilt trip society into taking the shot. It is now admittedly false to claim that the vaccine stops transmission, and yet the the call for vaccine mandates continues and is even intensifying in scope, despite some recent legal pushback.

The vaccine mandates are increasingly being promoted for young schoolchildren who have a vanishingly low risk of serious illness or death from Covid. Countless healthcare workers forced out of work. Essential transportation is being shut down over mandates. As much as some people would like to legitimize these vaccine mandates, there is simply no sense to it. It is nakedly unreasoned and unscientific and not in the interest of public health.

Notably, the same proponents of these vaccine mandates are typically found supporting a culture of censorship around the issue, advancing the idea that disagreement with them is dangerous and those who disagree should be silenced and removed from public view. This is what one would expect from a movement motivated by ideology rather than actual public health.

You hit the nail precisely on the head.

The science does change. And because it has, mandates have become worse than useless;

Opinion | Omicron Makes Biden’s Vaccine Mandates Obsolete

Omicron struck down vaccine mandates; Not the Supreme Court

 

[probinson]

Maybe, but but this is a diversion anyway.

No, it isn't. You claimed that Omicron was when they admitted vaccines didn't prevent transmission, but that is a demonstrably false statement. It's quite likely that vaccines never prevented transmission. But since Pfizer ended their study early and unblinded and vaccinated the control group, we'll never really know.

And what evidence we have shows that they do work.

Only in your make-believe land. Here in reality, vaccine mandates haven't done jack squat anywhere in the world to improve the conditions of the pandemic.

 

[expos4ever]

You were lied to. And if you'd take 10 minutes to read these articles, you'd see how;

Public Health's Truth Problem

The U.S. Government’s Noble Lies About COVID-19

Maybe we were lied to. What does this have to do with effectiveness of mandates?

 

[expos4ever]

No kidding. That might be why the title of this thread is Vaccine mandates and passports - a complete failure.

Now if only you had some evidence for this assertion.

 

[probinson]

Maybe we were lied to.

Just yesterday, you were adamant we had not been lied to. Now you say maybe we were. It's hard to keep up.

What does this have to do with effectiveness of mandates?

Trust of public health is paramount to their effectiveness. If public health officials lied (they did), then they broke trust. So now when they come out demanding you get vaccinated after they've broken their trust, it simply foments more distrust. You should know this is the case, because I've posted it at least twice in this thread. The ACLU's pandemic preparedness plan from 2008 warned against this very thing.

And yet, here we are, not learning lessons from history and repeating the same mistakes, fomenting distrust and then scratching our heads wondering why people just don't comply with demands after they've been lied to repeatedly.

 

[probinson]

Now if only you had some evidence for this assertion.

I do.

I know you're working overtime to make a case for vaccine mandates, but the real-world results do not support your flawed hypothesis. This seems to bother you, which is why you're pretending like real-world results don't matter.

You seem completely incapable of providing ANY data that shows areas that are highly vaccinated are performing better than areas with lower vaccination uptake. The reality is, the number of cases, hospitalizations and deaths are up indiscriminately regardless of vaccine percentage all over the world.

If there were proof of vaccine mandates improving pandemic outcomes, you'd certainly have posted it by now. But you haven't. All you've done is posted how mandates increased vaccine uptake in smaller sub-groups in the population, but you have completely and utterly failed to demonstrate how that has resulted in lower rates of infection and/or hospitalization.

Because. It. Doesn't.

 

[expos4ever]

You hit the nail precisely on the head.

The science does change. And because it has, mandates have become worse than useless;

Opinion | Omicron Makes Biden’s Vaccine Mandates Obsolete

Omicron struck down vaccine mandates; Not the Supreme Court

We see this a lot from you - you post a link and do not make the case that these links support your position. That should raise the suspicion of the reader. By contrast, I do not generally post links - I post actual data that support my position. So please, show us statements or data from these links that support your position that mandates do not work.

Vaccine mandates work - that is what the data show. To be more specific: it is beyond dispute that vaccines reduce hospitalizations. People are free to lie about this, but the facts are the facts. And what data we have shows that mandates do increase vaccination rates despite your obvious attempts to obfuscate this. So unless the virus behaves differently in the bodies of those who receive the jab by dint of mandate, we are drawn to the unavoidable conclusion: mandates will reduce hospitalizations.

 

[probinson]

Meanwhile, without any new mandates at all and almost no change in vaccination percentages, hospitalization numbers appear to have started their decline in the US, which is good news for everyone regardless of your position on vaccine mandates;

What the advocates of vaccine mandates don't want you to realize is that viruses have ALWAYS come in waves. Just look at the chart above. This is going to continue, regardless of vaccine mandates.

They will, as they have all throughout the pandemic, wait until the decline starts, and then they will once again claim victory. I predict this time around they will claim it was because Biden sent free at-home tests and N95 masks by the hundreds of millions to everyone in the US.

 

[probinson]

We see this a lot from you - you post a link and do not make the case that these links support your position. That should raise the suspicion of the reader.

How dare I give people an opportunity to read things and think for themselves!

 

[probinson]

To be more specific: it is beyond dispute that vaccines reduce hospitalizations.

Except for all those poor schlubs that have gotten two doses of the vaccine, but it hasn't been 14 days since their last dose. When they land in the hospital, they are disingenuously labeled "unvaccinated". And as I've shown multiple times, that is no small number of people. Here it is again. Every hospitalization in the red box is considered "unvaccinated". Astute observers might note that hospitalizations actually increase quite dramatically after the first dose of the vaccine. But those all get classified as "unvaccinated".

 

[alertandawake]

How dare I give people an opportunity to read things and think for themselves!

People thinking for themselves. Cannot have that. But is the very problem today. People don't want to think for themselves, they afraid to ask questions.

What annoys me most is that when people have a question of concern, especially when it comes some of the really serious side effects this is the attitude I have noticed of many "oh that's misinformation"

People need to ask questions and seek proper answers, and if they are not getting direct answers to questions this is a red flag.

So if someone comes to me trying to convince me to get vaccinated and I ask the question "Can you guarantee and assure me I won't get any serious side effects or consequences as a result of taking it" I expect a direct answer, not the standard "serious side effects are rare but the vaccines are generally tolerated well" response, as that is not good enough for me.

I don't know why people today are so afraid to ask for questions. Are people afraid they going to be labelled as a anti-vaxx because they asking questions?

 

[probinson]

Denmark is the latest country to lift restrictions, following the UK, Ireland and the Netherlands.

Denmark also said it will stop calling COVID a "societally critical disease".

Normal is on the horizon!

Denmark becomes latest European country to lift almost all Covid curbs