Universalism...why not?

[mkgal1]

Heterodox groups often quote this passage out-of-context trying to make it support universalism but lets read in in its proper context.
"Any man" in 1 Cor 3:12 does not refer to any man that has ever lived.
1 Corinthians 3:9-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Sorry. I wasn't clear with my point.

People typically relate the words "fire" and "destruction" with the "wicked" (only).....but my point was.....the fire seems to, in that context, be relative to acts (behavior).....not *people*. Not only does that passage show that the fire is burning up acts....but it's the acts of "the righteous". I was responding to your question about "destruction" having to do with "purification". To me....that's just what that passage is referring to (purification by fire--HIS fire).

I guess it is all reliant on how people perceive other people and whether or not they can see ANY good in those that "are in sin".

 

[ClementofA]

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

NO Scripture ever contradicts these statements. There are two options in resurrection. There is NO "second chance" .... there is "second death".

How do those opinions of fallible men - mere translations from ancient writings which are not even the true original Scriptures - support your view of endless oblivion, or deny the teaching of biblical universalism? Why choose those translations of men over other men's English translations that read quite differently?

New American Standard Bible
and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:29)

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

CLOT
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3)

The Hebrew word for eonian (CLOT above) is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT & other writings. Likewise with AIONION in the Greek Septuagint of Daniel 12:2.

The word OLAM occurs again in verse 3 of Daniel 12 in the words "OLAM and further" (see CLOT above) showing an example of its *finite duration* in the very next words after Daniel 12:2!

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces,
The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen,
and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[mkgal1]

This passage says nothing about anyone going through a fire. It says "fire shall try every man's work" and "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss" And it does not refer to the work all mankind but only the work of the "laborers together with God" etc. in vss. 11-12.​

Remember.....I'm not reading literally. The passage says this:

"However, they themselves will be saved as if they had gone through a fire."

To me.....that reads as a purification, like these passages:

Psalm 12:6 ~ “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.”

and


Job 23:10~He knows the way that I take; when He has tested me, I will come forth as gold”

 

[ClementofA]

His grace and mercy is not infinite in the slightest.
Their destruction is certain for the wicked.
Jude
4 For certain men have crept in stealthily [gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons who pervert the grace (the spiritual blessing and favor) of our God into lawlessness and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

5 Now I want to remind you, though you were fully informed once for all, that though the Lord [at one time] delivered a people out of the land of Egypt, He subsequently destroyed those [of them] who did not believe [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him].

6 And angels who did not keep (care for, guard, and hold to) their own first place of power but abandoned their proper dwelling place—these He has reserved in custody in eternal chains (bonds) under the thick gloom of utter darkness until the judgment and doom of the great day.

7 [The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns—which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity—are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire.

Evidently the eonian fire [mistranslated "everlasting fire", Jude 7] that destroyed Sodom was not everlasting, since it went out eons ago.

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
Concordant Literal Version - Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.

And the angels "in eternal bonds" are only kept in them "until the day of judgement" (Jude 6).

Jude 6 uses a different Greek word for the mistranslation "eternal" than Jude 7 uses for the poor translation "everlasting".

Romans 11:32... For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col. 1:19-22...For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

1 Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)

He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. (Acts 3:21)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Universalism is Not in the Bible

 

[Der Alte]

Evidently the eonian fire [mistranslated "everlasting fire", Jude 7] that destroyed Sodom was not everlasting, since it went out eons ago.
7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
Concordant Literal Version - Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth....

Evidently not! Who said the fire went out?

Genesis 19:24
(24) Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;​

It was not an ordinary earthly fire but a fire from heaven.

 

[mkgal1]

Evidently not! Who said the fire went out?
Genesis 19:24
(24) Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;It was not an ordinary earthly fire but a fire from heaven.

When I read that I see the fire CAME OUT of heaven....but the fire itself was "upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah"....???

Is fire still flowing from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah today (of any variety)? Where is that? Near the Dead Sea?

 

[Dartman]

The difference is......God's love (in my belief) has NO end......His grace and mercy is infinite (I believe).

Your "belief" does NOT match Scripture;

Gen 6:3 And Jehovah said, My spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

Gen 6:5-8
And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.

Now we will learn what Jehovah/YHVH God means, when He says "I will destroy";

Gen 7:21-23 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both birds, and cattle, and beasts, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.
23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.

All of the attempts to divert the meaning of "destroy" are defeated in this context.

Jesus and his apostles all reference this destruction as a classic example of Jehovah/YHVH God's justice.
If OUR sense of justice does NOT match this, WE need to change. WE need to conform our spirit to God's spirit ... rather than wresting the Scriptures to match our preconceived "belief".

 

[mkgal1]

Your "belief" does NOT match Scripture;

Gen 6:3 And Jehovah said, My spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

Gen 6:5-8
And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.

Now we will learn what Jehovah/YHVH God means, when He says "I will destroy";

Gen 7:21-23 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both birds, and cattle, and beasts, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.
23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.

"I will destroy man whom I have created" .....and did creation end when Noah and his family died?

That's what I meant earlier when I'd said we need to have some sort of preconceived idea about God and morality when certain passages seem to contradict one another. We have to decide which side the Truth lands on when comparing "my spirit shall not strive with man forever" and "For the LORD is good. His unfailing love continues forever, and his faithfulness continues to each generation."

 

[ClementofA]

Your "belief" does NOT match Scripture;

Gen 6:3 And Jehovah said, My spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

When all are saved, striving won't be needed any more, will it?

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lam.3:31)

Psalm 77:7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favorable no more?

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: …

The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide; neither will he keep his anger forever. Psalm 103:8, 9.

He retaineth not his anger forever, because he delighteth in mercy. Micah 7:18.

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

 

[Rajni]

Honestly, the bible is like the ultimate Rorschach test. Some look at it and see hell, others such as myself look at it and see heaven.

I think Karl Barth was right when he observed that out of all the books we read, it's the bible which reads us.

 

[Dartman]

"I will destroy man whom I have created" .....and did creation end when Noah and his family died?

Were the evil people drowned?

That's what I meant earlier when I'd said we need to have some sort of preconceived idea about God and morality when certain passages seem to contradict one another. We have to decide which side the Truth lands on when comparing "my spirit shall not strive with man forever" and "For the LORD is good. His unfailing love continues forever, and his faithfulness continues to each generation."

Read what you just wrote again.... and you will notice that you are choosing "sides".
Believing the Bible isn't about CHOOSING which verses you believe.... it is a process of harmonizing Scripture, and adjusting your preconceived ideas to match.
That is the crucial process all error misses.
The Scriptures remain the same. The Scriptures aren't the problem.
The problem is the preconceived ideas.

 

[ClementofA]

Believing the Bible isn't about CHOOSING which verses you believe.... it is a process of harmonizing Scripture, and adjusting your preconceived ideas to match.
That is the crucial process all error misses.
The Scriptures remain the same. The Scriptures aren't the problem.
The problem is the preconceived ideas.

You're "preaching to the choir."

"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

 

[mkgal1]

Were the evil people drowned?

So.....there's no more "evil people" any more?

You seem to be using that passage as a "proof" that His mercy runs out---yet, here we are.....sinful humanity all over again.

You stated, "Your "belief" does NOT match Scripture"....yet Clement provided us all with a few passages that support the claim that "His love endures forever".....and "no one is cast off from the LORD forever".

 

[sdowney717]

Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Something to think about, the fire that killed them who lived on earth went out, but the fire that burns them in hell did not. They just continue to experience the fire, the eternal fire for those of Sodom did not end.
And yet it will go the worse for those who today do not hear and repent and believe and receive the testimony of Christians about Christ compared to the people of Sodom.

Mark 6:11
And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”

 

[Dartman]

When all are saved, striving won't be needed any more, will it?

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. (Lam.3:31)

You are misappropriating a song about Israel, and how God will keep His promises to the fathers, even though he punishes that nation for generations.
Lam 1:1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people how is she become as a widow she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary

Psalm 77:7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favorable no more?

Context again!
David is pondering if God will continue to punish him, and David goes on to state his repentance;
Ps 77:10-13 And I said, this is my infirmity; (but I will remember) the years of the right hand of the Most High. 11 I will make mention of the deeds of Jehovah; for I will remember thy wonders of old.
12 I will meditate also upon all thy work, and muse on thy doings. 13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is a great god like unto God?

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: …

Again, you have chopped this out of context. Isaiah is talking about those that are contrite
Isa 57:15 For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly
And to revive the heart of the contrite.

And then Isaiah goes ON to say;
Isa 57:20-21 But the wicked are like the tossing sea, For it cannot be quiet, And its waters toss up refuse and mud. 21 "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."

The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide; neither will he keep his anger forever. Psalm 103:8, 9.

Yes, Jehovah/YHVH will be merciful to Israel, even though they were wicked;
Ps 103:6-7 6 Jehovah executeth righteous acts, and judgments for all that are oppressed. 7 He made known his ways unto Moses, His doings unto the children of Israel.

So you started too late in the text, to reveal the context.

And, you stopped too soon to reveal the REST of the truth;

Ps 103:11-18 For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His lovingkindness toward them that fear Him. 12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions from us. 13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so Jehovah pitieth them that fear Him. 14 For he knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust. 15 As for man, his days are as grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. 16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more. 17 But the lovingkindness of Jehovah is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him, and His righteousness unto children's children; 18 To such as keep His covenant, and to those that remember His precepts to do them.

 

[Dartman]

Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Something to think about, the fire that killed them who lived on earth went out, but the fire that burns them in hell did not. They just continue to experience the fire, the eternal fire for those of Sodom did not end.
And yet it will go the worse for those who today do not hear and repent and believe and receive the testimony of Christians about Christ compared to the people of Sodom.

Not according to Scripture. They are dead, which Jehovah says means to "not live" (Isa 38:1)

The fire went out, but the vengeance, the judgment, the justice, the shame and contempt did not.
They are "in the grave" and waiting for judgment;
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

But, you make an excellent point that they are AN EXAMPLE, Sodom and Gomorrah are completely destroyed .... just like the wicked will be in the lake of fire.

 

[Hillsage]

When I read that I see the fire CAME OUT of heaven....but the fire itself was "upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah"....???

Is fire still flowing from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah today (of any variety)? Where is that? Near the Dead Sea?

No, it isn't, and on the day of judgment the purgative aionian fires of hell will be more severe for Israel...(the chosen who were cut off but will be grafted back in "so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved") than it will be for SODOM.

MAT 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

 

[Dartman]

So.....there's no more "evil people" any more?

That's not what I said. What the passage proves is, God's patience runs out, and He destroys evil people. It is not His intent ... YET ... that there be no more "evil people", BUT, it is His intent to control His creation, so that there is still an opportunity for those that would CHOOSE to be His children still can.
That's part of the reason He drowned "the world that then was", and started over with Noah, and his family.
That's part of the reason Jehovah/YHVH God confounded the languages at Babel.
That's part of the reason why Jehovah/YHVH God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
That's part of the reason Jehovah/YHVH destroyed the sinful nations that surrounded Israel.
When civilization gets TOO wicked, it becomes too difficult to convert others, even our own families;
Ezek 14:20-22 though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, they should deliver neither son nor daughter; they should but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. 21 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the evil beasts, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast! 22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be carried forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings; and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

 

[Hillsage]

When civilization gets TOO wicked, it becomes too difficult to convert others, even our own families;
Ezek 14:20-22 though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, they should deliver neither son nor daughter; they should but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. 21 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the evil beasts, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast! 22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be carried forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings; and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

God can convert anyone He wants, anytime He wants;

ACT 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

I'll bet my dad wouldn't have even been to tough to resist that "drawing/calling/choosing/electing" from God, if it had been his time. But I rest assured that he just wasn't "predestined/ordained to believe" in this age.

 

[ClementofA]

Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Something to think about, the fire that killed them who lived on earth went out, but the fire that burns them in hell did not. They just continue to experience the fire, the eternal fire for those of Sodom did not end.
And yet it will go the worse for those who today do not hear and repent and believe and receive the testimony of Christians about Christ compared to the people of Sodom.

The proper translation is important. Compare the "Interlinear" for Jude 7 via this site:

Jude 1 Interlinear Bible

The Interlinear there says it is not "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", as your version says, but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion".

Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

"7 The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376)
Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."

A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven