Universalism...why not?

[sdowney717]

Not according to Scripture. They are dead, which Jehovah says means to "not live" (Isa 38:1)

The fire went out, but the vengeance, the judgment, the justice, the shame and contempt did not.
They are "in the grave" and waiting for judgment;
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

But, you make an excellent point that they are AN EXAMPLE, Sodom and Gomorrah are completely destroyed .... just like the wicked will be in the lake of fire.

Everyone is resurrected, which means to be spirit and body back in one piece,
Resurrection of damnation, they get a new body and are cast into the lake of fire at the end. It won't be the same body they had while alive on the earth. And why would God resurrect the wicked giving them a new body with the intention of burning them to nothingness ? When you read of them sleeping in the dust, this is referring to their body, not their spirit which does not sleep.

Resurrection of life - eternal life with a glorified body like Christ's, we will share His likeness, He is the life and the resurrection.

verses where sleep is death of the body.
For example Lazarus, Christ tells us he was in paradise of God, Abraham's bosom after he slept in the ground, DIED and the rich man in Hell after he died. Neither though had yet been resurrected but were consciously interacting in their situation, one hell fire, the other paradise..

John 11:11
These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”
However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:23-25New King James Version (NKJV)
23 When Jesus came into the ruler’s house, and saw the flute players and the noisy crowd wailing, 24 He said to them, “Make room, for the girl is not dead, but sleeping.” And they ridiculed Him. 25 But when the crowd was put outside, He went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose.

Job 14:12
So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep.

1 Corinthians 11:30
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 5:10
who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

 

[sdowney717]

Proof that those who sleep in Christ are conscious...

Here are mentioned those who sleep in Christ, they are not yet resurrected, so they are spirit only.
The resurrection occurs af His returning, the second advent.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 5:10
who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

After death, those who sleep in Christ are present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:6
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9
[ The Judgment Seat of Christ ] Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Christ not returned yet, no second advent yet, no resurrection yet of the evil and the good, and these dead who sleep in Christ are awake and conscious.
(whether present in the body or absent from the body, we make it our aim to be well pleasing to the Lord, that He will be pleased with us, as in how we conducted our life in the body.)

These martyrs are dead, being absent from the body, they are present with the Lord and speaking to Him, so they are not asleep or unconscious, they are spirit not body.
Revelation 6:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

 

[claninja]

As you said it does not say purified nor does it say that the man "will be" saved only that he "may be saved." The word σωθη/sothé translated "may be saved" is aorist, passive, subjunctive. The subjunctive in Greek is the mood of potential or possibility.

Yes, so it appears we agree then. Destruction MAY lead to purification as stated by Paul, just as john 3:17 says the world MAY be saved through Christ

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, so it appears we agree then. Destruction MAY lead to purification as stated by Paul, just as john 3:17 says the world MAY be saved through Christ

What is your point? Looks like cherry picking scripture out-of-context. Jesus stated some conditions.

John 3:15-18
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

 

[Dartman]

God can convert anyone He wants, anytime He wants;

Of course He CAN.... anyone who converts has been converted by God ... "it is God that gives the increase".
Compare the conversion of Paul to the interaction between Moses and Pharaoh. Were the miracles performed in Egypt more dramatic than the miracle on the road to Damascus?? Of course. So, why was Saul/Paul converted with so little effort, but Pharaoh was only temporarily persuaded???
Some people reject God, some submit. (Many and Few... according to Jesus)

 

[Dartman]

Yes, so it appears we agree then. Destruction MAY lead to purification as stated by Paul, just as john 3:17 says the world MAY be saved through Christ

I don't think anyone has denied that SOME contexts use "destruction" in this sense. The proof that the ultimate destruction of the wicked means "burned up", they will "be no more", they "will not be found", they will be "ashes".... is the Scriptures state these things.
Also, the "destruction" of the wicked in the flood, the "destruction" of Sodom and Gomorrah, are stated as examples of the ultimate destruction of the wicked.

You have no valid point here.

 

[claninja]

I don't think anyone has denied that SOME contexts use "destruction" in this sense. The proof that the ultimate destruction of the wicked means "burned up", they will "be no more", they "will not be found", they will be "ashes".... is the Scriptures state these things.
Also, the "destruction" of the wicked in the flood, the "destruction" of Sodom and Gomorrah, are stated as examples of the ultimate destruction of the wicked.

You have no valid point here.

Don't assume things too quickly friend. I agree with you. Only mentioned John 3:17 because its the same verb as in 1 Corinthians 5:5. "His spirit may be saved on the last day" vs "the world may be saved through Him'

 

[Rajni]

Remember.....I'm not reading literally. The passage says this:

"However, they themselves will be saved as if they had gone through a fire."

To me.....that reads as a purification, like these passages:

Psalm 12:6 ~ “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.”

and


Job 23:10~He knows the way that I take; when He has tested me, I will come forth as gold”

Sounds a lot like baptism by fire:

"I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16)​

 

[Dartman]

Don't assume things too quickly friend. I agree with you. Only mentioned John 3:17 because its the same verb as in 1 Corinthians 5:5. "His spirit may be saved on the last day" vs "the world may be saved through Him'

Please accept my apologies!
This is what happens when I wait too long to log back on, and then don't read ALL the posts.

 

[sdowney717]

Don't assume things too quickly friend. I agree with you. Only mentioned John 3:17 because its the same verb as in 1 Corinthians 5:5. "His spirit may be saved on the last day" vs "the world may be saved through Him'

Those who will not be entering the kingdom will be commanded by Christ to depart from Him.
They will never be allowed into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:20-23New King James Version (NKJV)
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[sdowney717]

Rev 22 is CLEAR, about those who are outside God's holy city. And that is the end of the text.
There is no more good future of an acceptance later on for them that are outside of the holy city.

Jesus Testifies to the Churches
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

A Warning
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[claninja]

What is your point? Looks like cherry picking scripture out-of-context. Jesus stated some conditions.

John 3:15-18
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

Right, according to what I can see from your posts, you don't believe God will save the whole world, only those who believe. So I'm not sure why you posted this. It says God may save the world, not that he will. So wouldn't that agree with what you believe, that he will save believers only, not the whole world?

 

[sdowney717]

The foolish virgins for them the door is shut and the Lord, who is the door for the sheep, proclaims to them He does not know them.

Matthew 25New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins
25 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

 

[claninja]

Those who will not be entering the kingdom will be commanded by Christ to depart from Him.
They will never be allowed into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:20-23New King James Version (NKJV)
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Yes, I agree with you. Thank you for the good news.

 

[sdowney717]

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[claninja]

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

who are the sheep? who are the goats?

 

[Dartman]

who are the sheep? who are the goats?

The righteous are the "sheep/wheat", the wicked are the "goats/tares".

 

[Dartman]

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Yes, they are "burned up", and "ashes" forever. NEVER to live again.
Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

Matt 13:38-40 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

2 Peter 3:9-13 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before the throne; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[sdowney717]

Yes, they are "burned up", and "ashes" forever. NEVER to live again.
Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

Matt 13:38-40 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

2 Peter 3:9-13 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before the throne; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And everlasting punishment means NO universal salvation, the idea is anathema to what Christ taught.
If anyone brings to you another gospel, such as a universal salvation of the wicked, let them be anathema, cursed.


Galatians 1:6
[ Only One Gospel ] I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
Galatians 1:7
which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

 

[claninja]

The righteous are the "sheep/wheat", the wicked are the "goats/tares".

While I agree with, I think it is a little deeper than that.

Look at the sheep's response in Matthew 25:37-39. It's very humble, they did not even know they were doing righteous works for Christ. They did not pursue righteousness, but did obtain it. As paul says in romans 9:30 and romans 10:20, the gentiles did not pursue righteousness, but did obtain.

Look at the goat's response in Matthew 25:44. It's self righteous. They thought they were doing righteous works for Christ, when they really weren't. The pursue righteousness, but did not obtain it. As paul says in romans 9:31, Israel pursued righteousness, but did not obtain.