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Featured Universalism...why not?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by surrender1, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    4 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. God can't do what he wants to do.

    2 vote(s)
    4.2%
  3. Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    40 vote(s)
    83.3%
  4. Don't know...never thought about this before.

    2 vote(s)
    4.2%
  1. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

    If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

    So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

    So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?
     
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  2. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God is succeeding at doing what He is committed to doing.

    Romans 8:29

    His correction is successful in His children > Hebrews 12:4-11. So, it is wise not to accept any less, and wise not to procrastinate until after death.

    You could also say, "If God is able to save any and all people, why would He wait until after people die and have lived such miserable and awful lives in this world?" If He was going to have universal salvation, He could easily do it in this life.

    Now is the time.
     
  3. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    Does God desire to save all souls?

    Well, I guess I'd say God can't *easily* restore broken souls since the soul has to cooperate in some way. So, that would be one reason he doesn't always accomplish restoration of an unrepentant soul in this life. But given enough opportunity and time that stretches out into eternity, God could redeem and restore the most broken and/or unrepentant soul that has ever lived.
     
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  4. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, but.
    I will offer how humans in selfishness do not have the nature to cooperate with God.
    I don't think God is limited. He is almighty, so more powerful than us humans and "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) which has corrupted humans. By "the finger of God" (Luke 11:20) Jesus was easily able to cast out demons. God could use His little pinkie to knock the living daylights out of Satan. And He is easily able to transform our nature, warming us in His love so we become all-loving and tenderly caring like He is.

    So, He is not only unbreaking souls, but He is deeply changing our nature > 1 John 4:17. And His objective is to change people into the image of His Son Jesus so we can be pleasing to Him like Jesus is (Romans 8:29).

    And I think we can see how many people in their "free wills" are choosing to be changed to be like Jesus, in this life. We need God to do what He is able to do! ! !
     
  5. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    So God desires everyone to be saved but doesn't do it or can't do it?

    From your post, sounds like you're saying God *desires* everyone to be saved and God *can* save everyone, if he wants to.

    So, if he desires and he can, then he will. Right?
     
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  6. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Is this a biblical assumption where you can provide verses saying this, or is it just what you'd prefer it to be?
     
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  7. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    There are verses saying God desires all men to be saved. Do you need them?
    There are verses saying God can do what he wants to do. Do you also need those?
    Just asking because my time is limited, but I'll find them for you if you need them.
     
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  8. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    It seems a bit odd that The Father put us in a place where we have no physical proof that He actually exists (to the unbeliever) yet threatens punishment if we fail to recognize it.
    Imagine doing that to your own child. Tricking their perception and later blaming them for not discovering the secret that you want to tell them. There is something wrong with this picture.
    If God really wants people to love Him, then why not visibly show Himself?

    This makes no sense unless we realize that this life is a test. Not to test our intelligence to see if we can discover His existence. Why would He do that? What about all of the simple people who believe what the church and government tells them what is true? What about fake news and theology?
    The whole scenario reeks of conspiracy but the creator of the universe can't be trying to cast most of us off on a technicality.

    No, the truth is that what He wants is for us to see evil for what it really is and see righteousness for what it really is and choose righteousness. This is why we MUST experience evil. So we can choose between evil and good.

    This is my opinion here based on my life, but I thing that most of humanity failed seeking righteousness in the past and at the time of the Day Of The Lord, most will fail again. It is because they believed the lie of Satan....the smearing of God's character. Yeshua even said that the road to life is narrow and few find it. But as the OP said, there is no parent that would kill and torture their own children because they failed to understand the will of the parent. That would be very unjust. Our Father is Just.

    I believe that the Father will not let any of His children "go". At least for eternity that is. But in the short term...yes He will. To proceed with the goal of converting all from a life of selfishness and greed to one of true divine love towards God and others. I think that those who refuse to humble themselves will not attain the life that Yeshua spoke of.
    I do not believe in an eternal torture chamber for those who failed. It does not fit with the character of God. He does punish His own in the short term though. This should scare us all. That is, unless we walk in the spirit and love everything and everyone as we are commanded.
     
  9. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    No. I'm aware of them. What I'm not aware of are the verses that teach what you claim.
     
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  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Certainly. The question is whether or not he's chosen to do what you would like him to have decided to do. The answer book is the Bible, and it gives precious little information that might indicate universal salvation while offering us a large number of verses that seem clearly to shut the door on the possibility. So that's why Christians overwhelmingly accept that he will not save every person.

    That's what human reasoning might -- but only might -- conclude. But of course, it's not our will or preferences that govern in this matter.
     
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  11. Raphael Jauregui

    Raphael Jauregui Episcopalian, liberal Anglican, Mdiv

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    Being a Christian Universalist, that is being of the position that salvation is uniquely through Jesus Christ but that Jesus saves everyone in time, I chose 'neither' because I am convicted that God will continue to open God's arms of love to people even after they have passed away. In my tradition, we pray for the departed for this reason.
     
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  12. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    Lots of good points here. I was wondering. You said that an eternal torture chamber for those who fail does not fit with the character of God, which I agree with. But do you think destruction or annihilation for those who fail does fit with the character of God? As a parent, I still wound't annihilate my child. My patience and love towards him wouldn't run out. If he resisted my love for eternity, I'd pursue him for eternity. Love never gives up. Right?
     
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  13. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    My claim is that if God desires all to be saved and can save all, he would save all.

    If you believe God desires to save all and can save all, why does he not save all?
     
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  14. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    I realize the evidence for universalism appears weaker than the evidence for annihilationism, but there *is* evidence of it in scripture. That, along with the revelation of God in Christ and how he deals with his enemies (by forgiving them *while* they put him to death), is plenty to give me hope that since God desires to save all and can save all, he will save all, at some point.
     
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  15. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    The claim was "So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us."

    I see nothing about God not putting a 'time limit' on us. Rather I see scripture describing a fixed state upon death (such as Eze 3:18, 33:8, John 3:18, Heb 9:27).
     
  16. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First, I offer that I understand what you are saying. But God is superior to and totally other than how human fathers are.

    The truth is that human fathers do not do so much as their children may boast after making them idols.

    But . . . anyway . . . yes God is able to save anyone, as He did with our Apostle Paul who is our example-proof that God is willing to save anyone. Paul, to my understanding, was capturing Christian mommies and daddies, even, then voting for them to be executed. If that was not child abuse, I don't know what is. He was horrible. But God changed Him . . . in this life.

    Grace is almighty to change us to become actually like Jesus > Galatians 4:19. So, God is not the one who is about procrastination.

    So, first is to not be trying to evaluate and judge God by what we can think up, because we are so limited. But we need to first be seeking Him for Himself, now, for all He is now able to do, or we are being tricked and decoyed to elsewhere.

    The problem of proof can be the juror who does not have the ability to evaluate the evidence. If ones pick and choose and demand what is not evidence, yes God will not give it to them!!!!

    God is God, Himself. He is our proof, and how His love effects us in us is our proof >

    "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

    In us He is proving Himself to us. He is taking a shortcut from just trying to negotiate with people on their own terms which can't help them, anyway.

    It is like how you can't really know if there is an elephant in existence unless you actually experience the elephant. By being told and shown photos, even, you do not really appreciate what you are trying to prove :) And in case you capture the elephant and break it down to doing what you want, now you don't know what the elephant really is; people try to break God in to what they dictate they want or what they dictate has to be true. This does not work very well :) lolololololololol

    You can't really know God only by explanation and belief of ideas. How in us He shares with us is how we know whom we are talking about, and how He effects our nature to become following of His example of love >

    "Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:1-2)

    God's grace effects us so we obey this, obeying His example, pleasing Him by being sweet-smelling in how we love any and all people.

    Therefore, ones are trying to decoy our attention away from this, whether they know this or not. There are plenty of people who say they are Christians, who are decoying away from this, too.

    God in us is personally correcting us and perfecting us in His love. But because humans are not personal, like this, not personally and tenderly caring for any and all people, they miss out on this proof . . . because of their own nature being their dictator, and keeping them messed in impersonal and unloving things like anger and arguing and frustration and boredom and loneliness and unforgiveness and dictatorial drives for pleasure and excitement, instead.

    So, then . . . by the way . . . being saved includes being safe in God's way of loving > for example > 1 John 4:17-18. So, if we are going to talk about if God saves people, we might consider how the Bible delineates what this means.

    Hebrews 12:4-11 is very clear how our Father succeeds in correcting whoever are His children. But there are ones who are not being corrected by God, and verse 8 says what is true of anyone who is not being corrected by God.

    I will offer > God's correction is not only punishment. But because of how human fathers have corrected us . . . we can assume this is how our Heavenly Father does :) He is totally other than how human fathers are. So, trying to subject Him to standards which we claim are true of human fathers is not wise. Not to mention, Hebrews 12:4-11 is clear how human fathers have not really corrected us.

    If you feed on Hebrews 12:4-11, you might notice how our Father's correction does not only change our behavior and how we act around certain people. But He changes our nature so we become more and more obedient, by nature, even cheerful and glad to do all He desires . . . not forced or bribed with inferior rewards of pleasure and status. But God is our Reward > Genesis 15:1 < for seeking Him for Himself > Hebrews 11:6.

    And His love does not have us only using people, but tenderly caring for each and every person.

    So, is this what you are denying or questioning?? This is what the Bible says, as well as I can tell; but I can see I need to learn and gain much more.

    But yes hell is eternal. Because there needs to be a place for keeping "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). Satan's spirit is nasty and totally stubborn. Only fire can control Satan and his children. So, I consider that the punishment is a by-product of how hell is simply the only practical way to keep Satan and his smelly nonsense away from whoever is planning to enjoy and share with Jesus and God's children for all eternity.

    You might revisit Romans chapter nine, where it says God has vessels for honor and for dishonor. There are people who volunteer to be vessels for nasty filth; and so they will go where it goes. You can tell them to get rid of their nasty and bitter and toxic waste, but they insist on not changing, even though it will take them to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. Now, that is definition stubbornness, I would say.

    "Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)
     
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  17. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    If you believe God desires to save all and can save all, why does he not save all?
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Because God is just as well as merciful.
     
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  19. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    It's just to put millions of Jews (mothers, fathers, kids 15 years old and and up or whatever) in hell after undergoing starvation and gassing to death in concentration camps? This is just one example. What about all the kids born into the wrong religion? What about kids stolen from their homes and put into sex trafficking and then dying there, but they had not believed the gospel story someone told them because if there was a god, surely he wouldn't allow such atrocities happen to them? It's just to send these people to hell?
     
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  20. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all (Romans 11:32).
     
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