Universalism...why not?

[Der Alte]

BTW....here's an article that explains why it's not a good practice to state, "the Bible clearly states":
mainly, From the article:
There’s no such thing as un-interpreted scripture – Legendary preacher and theologian Fred Craddock famously noted that, even if one believes the Bible is inerrant, perfect or directly handed to humanity from God, there’s still no way to glean an absolute understanding from the texts. After all, we all are imperfect, and as such all that we perceive flows through this imperfect vessel. The good news is that the bible is full of imperfect vessels still being used for incredible good. So maybe rather than an absolute’s we’re meant to focus more on growth, improvement and restoration.
1. We can use the Bible to make nearly any claim we want – I can use the Bible to justify slavery (wouldn’t be the first time), keeping a sexual concubine, or why eating shrimp condemns others to hell. [end of quote]

Well it must be true it's on the internet. But i saw on the 'net Abraham Lincoln once said "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."

 

[Rajni]

God doesn't seem to be concerned with your opinion about what is "simpler and more sensible".

Is this the best you can do in responding to my post, because there are serious holes in your logic.

 

[Dartman]

Wouldn't that be a bias (to believe firmly that the universalist position is NEVER stated in Scripture)?

No, that's an observation. I am, however, VERY willing to look at any passages you think DO state, explain the universalist position.

I'm not saying the fault is EVER in the text....but we do need to, somewhat, have SOME preconceived belief about what we believe about God (and morality) when we bump into passages that conflict with one another (like the passage in Joshua about the commandment for the entire tribe to be slaughtered and Jesus' command to love even our enemies and pray for them....and to turn the other cheek).

Those passages reflect a change in Law .... not a conflict between Scriptures. The Mosaic Law was SPECIFICALLY designed to govern ONE nation. The New Testament is SPECIFICALLY designed to guide individuals living in ANY NATION ON THE PLANET. It isn't the LEAST surprising that there are drastic differences.

It's not a matter of "accepting opinion OVER Scripture" to land on one focus over the other (like the Gospels over--not instead of-- the Pauline books....or peace over genocide.....grace over law.....love over punishment).

Since the Scriptures repeatedly state that the wicked WILL be destroyed, with MANY different ways of stating this fact ...... while there isn't ANY Scripture that clearly explains, or states universalist theory..... then your claim isn't accurate.

 

[Dartman]

Is this the best you can do in responding to my post, because there are serious holes in your logic.

Is this the best you can do, in responding to my post? Because, you haven't provided a single example of any hole in my logic.
And, just to correct your misconception, I am not relying on logic alone, the Scriptures actually state that the wicked will be destroyed, burned up, that they will "be no more", they will "not be found"... etc.

 

[mkgal1]

No, that's an observation. I am, however, VERY willing to look at any passages you think DO state, explain the universalist position.

There's plenty in this thread for you to circle back and re-read (I think what I shared on the last page from the article River of Fire may be the "most clear" and succinct).

The problem with bias is that it's hidden from those that hold onto it (or else they would have abandoned it).

Since the Scriptures repeatedly state that the wicked WILL be destroyed, with MANY different ways of stating this fact ...... while there isn't ANY Scripture that clearly explains, or states universalist theory..... then your claim isn't accurate.

Many theologians (and almost all that hold to an Eastern Christian theology) disagree with you.

Also......."destroyed" CAN mean that they are purified by His love and then no longer "wicked".

 

[Dartman]

There's plenty in this thread for you to circle back and re-read (I think what I shared on the last page from the article River of Fire may be the "most clear" and succinct).

The problem with bias is that it's hidden from those that hold onto it (or else they would have abandoned it).


Many theologians (and almost all that hold to an Eastern Christian theology) disagree with you.

Also......."destroyed" CAN mean that they are purified by His love and then no longer "wicked".

Yeah, we are circling, and you aren't even willing to cut-n-paste those references you claim are "most clear". By the way, I believe I examined every Scripture posted, and not one is "clear" for universalist theory.
Every one I've seen, in more than 60 years of looking, REQUIRES a great deal of rationalism to MAYBE kind of infer universalist theory.

 

[Rajni]

Is this the best you can do, in responding to my post? Because, you haven't provided a single example of any hole in my logic.

Well see, what will happen is that they'll just be written off as "rationalizations".

Okay, your turn.

 

[Dartman]

Well see, what will happen is that they'll just be written off as "rationalizations".

Thank you for recognizing the weakness of your position, and saving us time.

 

[mkgal1]

Thank you for recognizing the weakness of your position, and saving us time.

If something valuable is rejected (just like God's perfect love is rejected).....is that the fault of the one offering.....or the one rejecting? Hasn't that been the whole argument?

There's just no point in tossing something towards someone that you know is going to ignore it (or worse....discredit it continually)---that's all.

 

[Dartman]

If something valuable is rejected (just like God's perfect love is rejected).....is that the fault of the one offering.....or the one rejecting? Hasn't that been the whole argument?

There's just no point in tossing something towards someone that you know is going to ignore it (or worse....discredit it continually)---that's all.

Excellent point.
Now, apply THAT same principle to God's gospel.
Those that reject His offer of eternal life .... IF you obey Him ...... are to blame..... God is not.
The destruction of the wicked is THEIR choice .... THEIR sin .... not His.

 

[Der Alte]

... Also......."destroyed" CAN mean that they are purified by His love and then no longer "wicked".

Please show me a verse or verses which state that any word translated "destroyed" means purified?

 

[Dartman]

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

NO Scripture ever contradicts these statements. There are two options in resurrection. There is NO "second chance" .... there is "second death".

 

[Rajni]

If something valuable is rejected (just like God's perfect love is rejected).....is that the fault of the one offering.....or the one rejecting? Hasn't that been the whole argument?

There's just no point in tossing something towards someone that you know is going to ignore it (or worse....discredit it continually)---that's all.

Very true. Tossing a life-line to a dead person doesn't do much.

The way I see it, if it is a hard fact that Jesus is the Savior of the world, then that fact has to be in effect, and true for each and every individual person, before that person gets around to believing it. God quickens the belief, not the other way around. Human belief doesn't control what God does as though He's some puppet on strings.

Facts are what they are, whether one believes them or not. That's how facts work.

 

[mkgal1]

Excellent point.
Now, apply THAT same principle to God's gospel.
Those that reject His offer of eternal life .... IF you obey Him ...... are to blame..... God is not.
The destruction of the wicked is THEIR choice .... THEIR sin .... not His.

The difference is......God's love (in my belief) has NO end......His grace and mercy is infinite (I believe). That's [a big part of] what makes it Good News.

 

[mkgal1]

Please show me a verse or verses which state that any word translated "destroyed" means purified?

You won't find it literally---but I believe that, conceptually, it's the main plot running through the whole Bible (that God is transforming--continual and present tense-- sin/evil/death and returning creation back to Eden).

Look! I’m doing a new thing;
now it sprouts up; don’t you recognize it?
I’m making a way in the desert,
paths in the wilderness.~Is 43:19


I don't believe in reading the Bible literally--that's not how Jesus spoke, He spoke in parables. In God's "upside down" world, definitions and concepts are often just the opposite of what we're used to (we "find our lives by losing them", those that are humble are exalted; weakness is strength; servants are leaders; we have freedom by being slaves; we gain by losing; and we live through dying). With that in mind....why *can't* God "destroy" our sin and restore us? This Bible verse in particular speaks of His fire burning away thorns and thistles (which could be compared to sin):

The light of Israel will become a fire,
its holy one a flame,
which will burn and devour
its thorns and thistles
in a single day.~Is 10:17




This--to me--seems as if EVERYONE will go through a fire....yet the text still says, "they themselves will be saved":

1st Cor 3:13~"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
v 14~"But if anyone’s work goes up in flames, they’ll lose it. However, they themselves will be saved as if they had gone through a fire. 16 Don’t you know that you are God’s temple and God’s Spirit lives in you?"




The plot I see through the Bible is a trajectory.....with this being the outcome:

"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”~Rev 21:4

That's called The Great Reversal by the Franciscans. It is a theme of Luke’s Gospel.

“Blessed are you who are poor, for the Kingdom of God is yours.
Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who are now weeping, for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you,
and when they exclude and insult you
and denounce your name as evil
on account of the Son of Man.
Rejoice and leap for joy on that day!
Behold, your reward will be great in heaven.” ~Luke 6:20-23

 

[Rajni]

The difference is......God's love (in my belief) has NO end......His grace and mercy is endless (I believe). That's [a big part of] what makes it Good News.

I think that's also why, as it says in scripture, "mercy triumphs over judgment".

Isaiah 57:16
"For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would grow faint before Me, And the breath of those whom I have made.

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love.

Psalm 103:9
He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.

Lamentations 3:31
For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.​

 

[claninja]

Please show me a verse or verses which state that any word translated "destroyed" means purified?

1 Corinthians 5:5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

While it doesn't literally mean purified, this verse infers that destruction can lead to purification

 

[Der Alte]

You won't find it literally---but I believe that, conceptually, it's the main plot running through the whole Bible (that God is transforming--continual and present tense-- sin/evil/death and returning creation back to Eden).
Look! I’m doing a new thing;
now it sprouts up; don’t you recognize it?
I’m making a way in the desert,
paths in the wilderness.~Is 43:19
I don't believe in reading the Bible literally--that's not how Jesus spoke, He spoke in parables. In God's "upside down" world, definitions and concepts are often just the opposite of what we're used to (we "find our lives by losing them", those that are humble are exalted; weakness is strength; servants are leaders; we have freedom by being slaves; we gain by losing; and we live through dying). With that in mind....why *can't* God "destroy" our sin and restore us? This Bible verse in particular speaks of His fire burning away thorns and thistles (which could be compared to sin):
The light of Israel will become a fire,
its holy one a flame,
which will burn and devour
its thorns and thistles
in a single day.~Is 10:17

Hoo boy! Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to, simply say everything is a parable, a metaphor etc. I wonder if God or Jesus ever said anything literally? Maybe when God said "Y0u shall not kill" maybe He wasn't actually talking about killing another person but that is a metaphor for something else. And if I ask you what it really means, you will tell me one thing and someone else will tell me something different.

This--to me--seems as if EVERYONE will go through a fire....yet the text still says, "they themselves will be saved":
1st Cor 3:13~"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

v 14~"But if anyone’s work goes up in flames, they’ll lose it. However, they themselves will be saved as if they had gone through a fire. 16 Don’t you know that you are God’s temple and God’s Spirit lives in you?"

Heterodox groups often quote this passage out-of-context trying to make it support universalism but lets read in in its proper context.
"Any man" in 1 Cor 3:12 does not refer to any man that has ever lived.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.​

Paul is not addressing all mankind but "labourers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building."

(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;​

"No man,""any man,""every man" in this passage only refers to "labourers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building."who has built on the foundation of Jesus Christ," vss. 9, 11-12, not all mankind.

(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

Again "every man""any man" does not refer to all mankind but to "labourers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building."who has built on the foundation of Jesus Christ," vss. 9, 11-12.
This passage says nothing about anyone going through a fire. It says "fire shall try every man's work" and "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss" And it does not refer to the work all mankind but only the work of the "laborers together with God" etc. in vss. 11-12.
Also it does not say that man is saved by fire but "yet so as by fire"

(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

These two verses certainly don't say that all mankind will be saved. it says, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy"

The plot I see through the Bible is a trajectory.....with this being the outcome:
"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”~Rev 21:4

Another out-of-context proof text. Lets read it in context.

Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

Rev 21:4 says "there shall be no more death" In vs. 5 Jesus Himself say."Behold I make all things new." "No more death""all things new" but three verses later we see several groups of people being thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death. Verses 5-9 are a continuous narrative by Jesus.

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

That's called The Great Reversal by the Franciscans. It is a theme of Luke’s Gospel.

“Blessed are you who are poor, for the Kingdom of God is yours.
Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who are now weeping, for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you,
and when they exclude and insult you
and denounce your name as evil
on account of the Son of Man.
Rejoice and leap for joy on that day!
Behold, your reward will be great in heaven.” ~Luke 6:20-23

Excellent scripture but it does not negate Matt 7:22-23 or 25:46.

Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

 

[Der Alte]

1 Corinthians 5:5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
While it doesn't literally mean purified, this verse infers that destruction can lead to purification

As you said it does not say purified nor does it say that the man "will be" saved only that he "may be saved." The word σωθη/sothé translated "may be saved" is aorist, passive, subjunctive. The subjunctive in Greek is the mood of potential or possibility.

 

[sdowney717]

The difference is......God's love (in my belief) has NO end......His grace and mercy is infinite (I believe). That's [a big part of] what makes it Good News.

His grace and mercy is not infinite in the slightest.
Their destruction is certain for the wicked.
Jude
4 For certain men have crept in stealthily [gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons who pervert the grace (the spiritual blessing and favor) of our God into lawlessness and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

5 Now I want to remind you, though you were fully informed once for all, that though the Lord [at one time] delivered a people out of the land of Egypt, He subsequently destroyed those [of them] who did not believe [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him].

6 And angels who did not keep (care for, guard, and hold to) their own first place of power but abandoned their proper dwelling place—these He has reserved in custody in eternal chains (bonds) under the thick gloom of utter darkness until the judgment and doom of the great day.

7 [The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns—which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity—are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire.