Universalism...why not?

[toLiJC]

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

the overall salvation is not only a human theory, but also a command(ment) from God

John 12:49-50 "I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.",

1 Timothy 2:1-4 "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men(i.e. i exhort you, first of all, to make prayers, intercessions, pleadings, and blessings before God for all humans), for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity(i.e. and earnestness). This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth(i.e. and to become/be good/righteous)."

Blessings

 

[ClementofA]

You have posted a very biased definition.
NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, perish, pernicious ways, waste.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.)
NT:684 apœleia destruction, waste, annihilation

Scope of meaning: The basic negative meaning of the entire word group, frequently with a violent tendency, aims to express loss, destruction, and annihilation in a very general sense which can extend to the final destruction of the human being in death.
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 )

NT:684 apooleia, apooleias, hee

1. actively, a destroying, utter destruction: as, of vessels, Rom 9:22
2. passively, a perishing, ruin, destruction

a. in general: let thy money perish with thee, Acts 8:20
b. in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, the lot of those excluded from the kingdom of God: Rev 17:8,11
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Exactly! The Bible does NOT teach the wicked will forever be tortured! It teaches they will be utterly destroyed, "left neither root, nor branch", they will be "ashes under" the feet of the righteous, at least until the earth is renewed.

Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:12-13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


This passage does a wonderful job of showing that God Himself is the source of Jesus' power, and that Jesus will hand over the kingdom to his God, AFTER all enemies are destroyed. The "enemies" include all rule, authority and power ... obviously that doesn't include Jesus' power, or his God's power ... so those that oppose Jesus are going to be destroyed, as Jesus explained in his parable of the pounds;
Luke 19:11-12 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Jesus ascended to heaven "to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return". When he returns, there will be enemies!

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Compare Psa 2, Psa 110, Zech 14, Rev 19)

This does not change the fact that your opinion of 2 Pet.3:7 is exegesis.

Or any other passage where you see the words "destruction", "perish" & do likewise.

They don't prove your opinion is the view of the Scriptures.

If this is the best you've got, you've failed to prove what you think you have.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[mkgal1]

Again, there isn't a single text that clearly explains, defines or preaches the universalist theory.... while by contrast there are MANY texts that explain in detail that the wicked face destruction, death, being "burned up", they "will not be", they will "be no more".

No......nothing is stated "clearly" about any of the three main (all accepted) theories, that's why the church never has created any hard-lined doctrine on the topic. What you may be perceiving as "explained in detail" comes from adding in assumptions (and, most likely, opinions that have been passed on to you--as we all have heard for years).

God's kingdom has just about everything turned upside down (the first are last....the humble inherit the earth....etc)---fire also seems to be different when He uses it as well.

Remember Moses and the burning bush? Remember how the bush itself wasn't burned?

God is described as a fire in Isaiah (Isaiah 10:17) "burning away thorns and thistles"

Here are some other passages with the word "fire"--notice the context.....fire doesn't seem to be used to "destroy" anything but impurities (or bonds) in any of these (nor is the fire directed towards the "wicked" in these passages, either):


In Isaiah 33:14-16 the text seems to include everyone (from Zion) but goes on to say, “Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?” He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity, He who rejects unjust gain And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil; these are the ones who will dwell on high. The rocks of the mountains will be their fortress. Food will be supplied to them, and they will have water in abundance."

In Daniel 3:24, 25~"Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and said unto his counselors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? ... Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

1st Cor 3:13~"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
v 14~"But if anyone’s work goes up in flames, they’ll lose it. However, they themselves will be saved as if they had gone through a fire. 16 Don’t you know that you are God’s temple and God’s Spirit lives in you?"


Jeremiah 23:29~"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD"


Hebrews 12:29~For our God is a consuming fire.

ETA:
Acts 2:1-4 "When Pentecost Day arrived, they were all together in one place.2 Suddenly a sound from heaven like the howling of a fierce wind filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be individual flames of fire alighting on each one of them. 4 They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit enabled them to speak."

Matthew 3:11~"I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

God was revealed as fire on the mountain of Transfiguration, and He said that He came “to put fire upon the earth” (Luke 12:49), St John of the Ladder writes that is to say, love, because, “Love is the source of fire” (Step 30, 18).

Heb 4:14-15 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

"Tempted" doesn't equate to "craving to sin" (but that's a whole other topic).

 

[Dartman]

You're ignoring the rest of the information. God ALSO designed us with the ability to override our instincts.
God ALSO provided mankind His instructions, complete with hundreds of case studies of how to please Him, and how NOT to please Him.
God ALSO provided mankind incredible GRACE ... a process of repentance, and forgiveness for our failures.
God ALSO provides for mankind an AMAZING promise ... "seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened"! This IRON CLAD guarantee, coupled with God's amazing creation (Rom 1:20) removes ANY excuse regarding "those natives in the darkest jungle", etc.

How much simpler and more sensible it would have been to do all that without installing the sin-craving app alongside those other programs. It's like a programmer deliberately installing a virus alongside all the other goodies.

God doesn't seem to be concerned with your opinion about what is "simpler and more sensible".

 

[Dartman]

This does not change the fact that your opinion of 2 Pet.3:7 is exegesis.

Of course it's exegesis, I was not disagreeing with that point.
EVERY attempt to understand Scripture should be exegesis!

My response was to your very biased translation of apoleia.

My version of Vines didn't even agree with what you posted!

 

[ClementofA]

Of course it's exegesis, I was not disagreeing with that point.
EVERY attempt to understand Scripture should be exegesis!

My response was to your very biased translation of apoleia.

My version of Vines didn't even agree with what you posted!

Your version of Vine doesn't say this?

"684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11)."

Strong's Greek: 684. ἀπώλεια (apóleia) -- destruction, loss

 

[Dartman]

No......nothing is stated "clearly" about any of the three main (all accepted) theories

Hogwash.
The Scriptures CLEARLY explain, describe and teach the utter destruction of the wicked, in nearly 100 different passages.
Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:12-13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

that's why the church never has created any hard-lined doctrine on the topic.

I don't know which church you mean, but the New Testament proves that the Churches of God had hard-lined doctrines on this topic, and so does my congregation.

What you may be perceiving as "explained in detail" comes from adding in assumptions (and, most likely, opinions that have been passed on to you--as we all have heard for years).

Again, hogwash.
The phrases "burned up", "leave them neither root, nor branch", "destroyed", "not be", "be no more", "not find them", "destruction", "everlasting shame and contempt", "not inherit the kingdom", etc., are clear. The only confusion is on the part of those who feel justified in rejecting the natural, simple understanding those passages convey.

"Tempted" doesn't equate to "craving to sin"

Of course it does!

 

[Dartman]

Your version of Vine doesn't say this?

"684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11)."

Strong's Greek: 684. ἀπώλεια (apóleia) -- destruction, loss

No, it does not. I will have to wait until I get home to access my version of Vine's, I don't have access to that here.
BUT, even if it did .... there are MANY others that disagree with this definition!

 

[ClementofA]

Hogwash.
The Scriptures CLEARLY explain, describe and teach the utter destruction of the wicked, in nearly 100 different passages.
Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:12-13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


I don't know which church you mean, but the New Testament proves that the Churches of God had hard-lined doctrines on this topic, and so does my congregation.
Again, hogwash.
The phrases "burned up", "leave them neither root, nor branch", "destroyed", "not be", "be no more", "not find them", "destruction", "everlasting shame and contempt", "not inherit the kingdom", etc., are clear. The only confusion is on the part of those who feel justified in rejecting the natural, simple understanding those passages convey.

Of course it does!

Nothing there is clear. It's full of your opinions and exegesis again.

In fact universalism is harmonious with everything you've posted.

Universalists can throw out Scriptures too:

Romans 11:32... For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col. 1:19-22...For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

1 Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. (Isaiah 65:1)

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)

He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. (Acts 3:21)

And dozens more:

Universalism is Not in the Bible

 

[mkgal1]

Hogwash.
The Scriptures CLEARLY explain, describe and teach the utter destruction of the wicked, in nearly 100 different passages.

It's "clear" because it lines up with YOUR OWN reasoning. In order for things to be interpreted differently from our set reasoning---we have to have a sort of paradigm shift.

Like I already posted--it can't be "clear" and still have 3 leading theories for all of the history of Christianity.

 

[Dartman]

Nothing there is clear. It's full of your opinions and exegesis again.

I merely quoted the passages, there is no opinion or exegesis in that portion of my post!

In fact universalism is harmonious with everything you've posted.

This just a hollow claim.

Universalists can throw out Scriptures too:

Romans 11:32... For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col. 1:19-22...For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

1 Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. (Isaiah 65:1)

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)

He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. (Acts 3:21)

And dozens more:

What's your point?? NONE of these verses teach universalist theory!!

 

[mkgal1]

BTW....here's an article that explains why it's not a good practice to state, "the Bible clearly states":
Five Reasons Saying "The Bible Clearly States" is Dangerous (and Un-Christian)

mainly, From the article:

1. There’s no such thing as un-interpreted scripture – Legendary preacher and theologian Fred Craddock famously noted that, even if one believes the Bible is inerrant, perfect or directly handed to humanity from God, there’s still no way to glean an absolute understanding from the texts. After all, we all are imperfect, and as such all that we perceive flows through this imperfect vessel. The good news is that the bible is full of imperfect vessels still being used for incredible good. So maybe rather than an absolute’s we’re meant to focus more on growth, improvement and restoration.
2. We can use the Bible to make nearly any claim we want – I can use the Bible to justify slavery (wouldn’t be the first time), keeping a sexual concubine, or why eating shrimp condemns others to hell. [end of quote]

 

[ClementofA]

I merely quoted the passages, there is no opinion or exegesis in that portion of my post!

Actually you opened with this remark

"The Scriptures CLEARLY explain, describe and teach the utter destruction of the wicked, in nearly 100 different passages."

If it were so clear there wouldn't be any discussion here.

I think we can all agree it's clear that God exists & Christ is the Saviour of the world & all human beings, just as Scripture says.

Many other topics are not so clear & obvious.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[mkgal1]

Here's an example of a shift (or how two different frameworks change the interpretation of texts). One can have a belief system that sets God up as either a God of peace....or a God of genocide (and we can read the entire Bible through one of these "lenses" and believe "it's all very clear"):

....A core claim of this approach is that, if we want to know what God is like, we look to Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels. A Franciscan hermaneutic rejects any and all forms of the Christian "good cop, bad cop" routine, where Jesus is the nice guy that somehow balances out the violent Yahweh of the Hebrew Bible, or the angry God the Father who demands retribution for sins. We should not be surprised that the Franciscan thoelogical tradition, by and large, rejects the transactional accounts of the atonement that I talked about in the previous post. Tripp Fuller says it best: if we believe that the Father and Son are one, then "God has to at least be as loving as Jesus."

That commitment presents challenges when we turn to the many "texts of terror" we find in especially the Hebrew Bible, but also in the New Testament. It is true that the words of Jesus are not uniformly sweetness and light ("I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I am under until it is completed! Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division!"--Luke 12:49-51). Nevertheless, there is, to pick the most clear example, a legitimate and unavoidable conflict between Jesus's command to turn the other cheek and the seeming command of God to slaughter entire tribes of people in books such as Joshua. If you read the Scriptures through a Franciscan hermaneutic, God is a God of peace, not of genocide, and so Joshua must be relativized.~The Shape of Progressive Theology, Part 4--St. Francis and the Incarnation

 

[Dartman]

BTW....here's an article that explains why it's not a good practice to state, "the Bible clearly states":
Five Reasons Saying "The Bible Clearly States" is Dangerous (and Un-Christian)

mainly, From the article:

1. There’s no such thing as un-interpreted scripture – Legendary preacher and theologian Fred Craddock famously noted that, even if one believes the Bible is inerrant, perfect or directly handed to humanity from God, there’s still no way to glean an absolute understanding from the texts. After all, we all are imperfect, and as such all that we perceive flows through this imperfect vessel. The good news is that the bible is full of imperfect vessels still being used for incredible good. So maybe rather than an absolute’s we’re meant to focus more on growth, improvement and restoration.
2. We can use the Bible to make nearly any claim we want – I can use the Bible to justify slavery (wouldn’t be the first time), keeping a sexual concubine, or why eating shrimp condemns others to hell. [end of quote]

I don't agree with Fred.
2 Tim 3:14-16 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Every teacher I have encountered, that protests claims regarding the clarity of Scripture, is a teacher of doctrines that are NOT "clearly stated" in Scripture, and are rationalizing their failure to conform to plainly stated, clear Scripture.

 

[mkgal1]

Every teacher I have encountered, that protests claims regarding the clarity of Scripture, is a teacher of doctrines that are NOT "clearly stated" in Scripture, and are rationalizing their failure to conform to plainly stated, clear Scripture.

That's probably a WHOLE other thread---because my experience has been the ones that use the "clearly states" phrase are normally using that to oppress others (and to undermine the "Good News" for *everyone* and whittling it down for a select crowd). But....as I said...probably another thread would be in order for that.

But....you basically proved my point by pulling out a verse to support your stance. Proving that "We can use the Bible to make nearly any claim we want".

 

[Dartman]

Here's an example of a shift (or how two different frameworks change the interpretation of texts). One can have a belief system that sets God up as either a God of peace....or a God of genocide (and we can read the entire Bible through one of these "lenses" and believe "it's all very clear"):

The challenge to any Bible student is to look at each text without any bias.
It is very clear that MANY students fail this challenge ... which is proven by the multitude of opinions.
This fact is NOT proof that the task is impossible.
This fact merely illustrates that it is rare to find an unbiased student.
The fault isn't with the text.
The fault is in accepting opinion OVER Scripture.
The universalist position is NEVER stated in Scripture, and by contrast, is the product of human reasoning.

 

[mkgal1]

The challenge to any Bible student is to look at each text without any bias.
It is very clear that MANY students fail this challenge ... which is proven by the multitude of opinions.
This fact is NOT proof that the task is impossible.
This fact merely illustrates that it is rare to find an unbiased student.
The fault isn't with the text.
The fault is in accepting opinion OVER Scripture.
The universalist position is NEVER stated in Scripture, and by contrast, is the product of human reasoning.

Wouldn't that be a bias (to believe firmly that the universalist position is NEVER stated in Scripture)?

I'm not saying the fault is EVER in the text....but we do need to, somewhat, have SOME preconceived belief about what we believe about God (and morality) when we bump into passages that seem to conflict with one another (like the passage in Joshua about the commandment for the entire tribe to be slaughtered and Jesus' command to love even our enemies and pray for them....and to turn the other cheek).

It's not a matter of "accepting opinion OVER Scripture" to land on one focus over the other (like the Gospels over--not instead of-- the Pauline books....or peace over genocide.....grace over law.....love over punishment).

 

[mkgal1]

bi·as
ˈbīəs/
noun

1. 1.
   prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.
   "there was evidence of bias against foreign applicants"
   synonyms: prejudice, partiality, partisanship, favoritism, unfairness, one-sidedness;

 

[mkgal1]

From definition of bias: usually in a way considered to be unfair.

Is that it? Does it seem "unfair" to you (sort of like the older son in the Prodigal Son story)?

I just found this perspective on that:

Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God’s love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his father’s estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his father’s love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brother’s return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his father’s house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one’s heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned. They are all dearly loved. They are all invited to the joyous banquet. They are all living in God’s Kingdom, in the New Earth and the New Heavens. No one expels them. Even if they wanted to go away they could not flee from God’s New Creation, nor hide from God’s tenderly loving omnipresence. Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love.~The River of Fire - Kalomiros - Glory to God for All Things