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U.S. Babylon in Prophecy ?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by caddy, Jun 29, 2003.

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  1. caddy

    caddy Junior Member

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    There are numerous books and Websites related to this. I know no one can be dogmatic on this, but whats the views in this forum of the possiblity of Future U.S. Being the Babylon of Chapter 18 in Revelations ?

    Thanks
    Steve
     
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  2. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    The US. can and does play many roles for the last days. The Twin towers tragedy could very well represent the economic portrayal of Babylon, but the US also plays the role of protector to Israel which is a vitally important role for end times. Seeing that the last days began 2000 years ago with the cross and the Lord's return to be the lamb of God, I believe it will take a high degree of spiritual acuity to even perceive the events as they unfold. They will be known only by studying closely the prophecies and seeing what are the greatest enemies to the reuniting of Israel.
    Now it is not a common doctrine, but this reuniting of Israel is all about the two houses of Israel - Judah and Israel (Ephraim and Mannasah). Even the promises of God are directed to Israel and these two houses, and interpreting prophecies for the end times has much to do with the reuniting of these houses before the Lord comes back.
    See the thread I started called two witnesses.
    Here are a couple of verses about the two houses to consider:

    Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Ezekial 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

    I see muhammed as the false prophet and Islam as the beast that the saints will have to fight and are doing even now. Islamic nations will lead the world to Armagedon, in my opinion, as I see this happening in current events, worldwide. They would think nothing of driving planes into our buildings and killing thousands, and they look forward to nuclear destruction of Israel and any who support her.
     
  3. duster1az

    duster1az Member

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    I can't speak for these forums, but my personal view would be Revelation 17-18 is refering to a literal, rebuilt city of Babylon in Iraq.

    God's Word is specific in its use of the name Babylon in regard to the Antichrist's capital city (Rev. 14:8; 16:19; 17:5; 18:2, 10, 21). As you said, it would be difficult to be dogmatic, but nothing in the text seems to indicate that the name should be taken figuratively or symbolically.

    Something else that causes me to believe Babylon is a literal city is the Euphrates River is mentioned twice (Rev. 9:14; 16:12). These references are to a literal place and point to something taking place there.

    Last, (Isaiah 13; and Jeremiah 50-51) predict that Babylon will be destroyed completely, but that hasn't happened up to this point. As a matter of fact portions of that city have been rebuilt under Saddam Hussein.

    In Christ,
    Tracey
     
  4. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    Hello Tracy, thanks for the observances. I look on the prophecies as being timeless in that they can be repeated. It does seem that there are significant repetitions of numbers and events in scripture.
    When I look at the twin towers incident, I see that it may be a shadow of things to come, much like the symbolisms of the Old Testament shadow and foretell the events in the New Testament.
    The gospel is told in the stars, in numerology, even fractal geometry shows the mistake that gives us ever changing time that will be fixed once and for all with eternity in Christ - so when I look at prophecy, I see that there may be shadows of things to come that I am observing. Your observations are quite valid.
     
  5. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    The emerging European empire may well be the Babylon and be the next world's new super power, as they have stood against the United States here lately. This last emerging Roman empire will oppose the modern house of Israel (America, Britain, and Israel).
     
  6. Donny_B

    Donny_B Active Member

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    I see the US, Britian, and Israel as part of the one world political system, rather than opposed to it. My understanding of the scriptures is that this one world political system along with the religious and mystical aspect of it, Mystery Bablyon, are all based in Rome.
     
  7. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Who is the woman riding the fourth beast world power?

    Read Ezekiel 16.

    The Birth of Israel, The Harlot
    Eze 16: 1. Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

    2. Son of man, cause JERUSALEM to know her ABOMMINATIONS, 3. And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto JERUSALEM; Thy BIRTH and thy NATIVITY is of the land of CANAAN; thy FATHER was an AMORITE, and thy MOTHER an HITTITE.

    4. And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all. 5None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

    Abraham was an Amorite and Sarah was a Hittite. They were the first parents of the Jewish nation.


    Ezekiel 16; 8. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I SWARE UNTO THEE, AND ENTERED INTO A COVENANT WITH THEE, saith the Lord GOD, and THOU BECOMEST MINE.


    Ezekiel16: 10. I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers’ skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I COVERED THEE WITH SILK.

    Ezekiel 16: 10. 13. Thus wast thou decked with GOLD and SILVER; and THY RAIMENT was of FINE LINEN, and SILK, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and THOU WAST EXCEEDING BEAUTIFUL, and THOU DIDST PROSPER INTO A KINGDOM.

    The beautiful lady is the none other than the kingdom,,,, Israel.


    Ezekiel 16: 14. 15. But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the HARLOT because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

    The beautiful lady,,, Israel becomes the Harlot in silk.


    Ezekiel 16: 2. And in all thine ABOMINATIONS and thy WHOREDOMS thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

    Ezekiel 23: 44. 44. Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the HARLOT: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.


    Numbers 14:30. Doubtless YE SHALL NOT COME INTO THE LAND, concerning which I SWARE TO MAKE YOU DWELL THEREIN, save CALEB the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

    Caleb and Joshua, were the only men truthfully reporting of the promise lands abundance.

    Numbers 14: 32. But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. 34After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise

    In plain English. For every day you lied about the land you will be punished a year in the wilderness. That’s a years punishment for each day you sinned.


    Numbers 32;13. And the LORD’S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.

    14 And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers’ stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the LORD toward Israel.
    Amos 5:25. Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness FORTY YEARS, O house of ISRAEL?


    Acts 7:36. He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.


    BABYLON THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, WHO IS SHE?

    Rev 17.5. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    Rev 23: 37.Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that KILLEST THE PROPHETS, and STONEST THEM WHICH ARE SENT UNTO THEE, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 BEHOLD, YOUR HOUSE is left unto you DESOLATE.
    39 For I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT SEE ME henceforth, till ye shall say, BLESSED is he that COMETH in the NAME OF THE LORD.

    It is Jerusalem the kills the Prophets and in the near future another two.

    Matt 23: 35. THAT UPON YOU may come all the RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous ABEL unto the BLOOD of ZACHARIAS son of BARACHIA, WHOM YE SLEW BETWEEN THE TEMPLE AND THE ALTER.

    Rev 17: 18. And the woman which thou sawest is THAT GREAT CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    Rev 17.5. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    Rev 17: 1. And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgement of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    Rev 16: 19. AND THAT GREAT CITY was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    Rev 14: 8. And there followed another angel, saying, BABYLON IS FALLEN THAT GREAT CITY, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.


    Rev 11: 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.

    We have “GREAT CITY WHERE OUR LORD WAS KILLED!”

    JERUSALEM

    We have “GREAT CITY JERUSALEM.”

    Rev 13: 33. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: FOR IT CANNOT BE THAT A PROPHET PERISH OUT OF JERUSALEM.

    It cannot be anywhere but Jerusalem where the Prophets die.

    Rev 18: 5. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and GOD HATH REMEMBERED HER INIQUITIES .

    6. REWARD HER AS SHE REWARDED YOU, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

    Joel 3: 15. The LORD also shall roar out of ZION, and utter his voice from JERUSALEM; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of ISRAEL.

    Joel 3: 17. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your GOD DWELLING IN ZION MY HOLY MOUNTAIN: THEN SHALL JERUSALEM BE HOLY, and there shall NO STRANGERS PASS THROUGH HER ANY MORE.

    Daniel 11: 28. Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

    The fourth beast one world order, will step into Jerusalem, only this time she will relent after awhile and welcome a new leader that pops up among their leadership. He will sit on the mount, and Jerusalem?
    She will give herself and ride on all the nations of the fourth beast.

    Daniel 8: 23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up

    Daniel 11:29. At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; BUT IT SHALL NOT BE AS THE FORMER, or as the latter.

    Chittim is the old name for Cyprus, where the American 3rd fleet is berthed.

    Daniel 11:30. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and HAVE INDIGNATION AGAINST THE HOLY COVENANT: so shall he do; he shall even return, AND HAVE INTELLIGENCE WITH THEM THAT FORSAKE THE HOLY COVENANT.

    He will sit where he ought not. On the mount of the congregation at the sides of the North in Jerusalem.
    Isaiah 14:14. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    Rev 2: 9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    The gentiles (strangers) will go into Jerusalem for 3 ½ years.

    Rev 11:2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given UNTO THE GENTILES: and THE HOLY CITY SHALL THEY TREAD UNDER FOOT FORTY TWO MONTHS.

    Ezek 16:40. They shall also BRING UP A COMPANY AGAINST THEE, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their sword.

    Zechariah 12:2. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

    Rev 23: 37.Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that KILLEST THE PROPHETS,

    What do we have so far?

    Rev 23: 38. BEHOLD, YOUR HOUSE is left unto you DESOLATE.
    Rev 14: 8. We now have BABYLON GREAT CITY!
    Rev 11.7. THAT GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.

    We have, Jerusalem who kills the Prophets,
    We have, Her house left desolate.
    We have, BABYLON, THAT GREAT CITY.
    We have THAT GREAT CITY where also our LORD WAS KILLED!


    BABYLON IS JERUSALEM!
    Rev 18: 20. And the LIGHT of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and THE VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and of the BRIDE shall be HEARD NO MORE AT ALL IN THEE: for thy MERCHANTS were the great MEN OF THE EARTH; for by thy SORCERIES were all NATIONS deceived.
    24 And IN HER was found the BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS, and of SAINTS, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    The new bride is to come and replace the harlot.

    Rev 21: 9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that GREAT CITY, the HOLY JERUSALEM, descending out of heaven from God, 11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

    Maranatha.
    P C.
     
  8. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Generally Medicated

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    (Quote) - 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
    16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (End Quote)


    Judea was a territory within the land of Israel whose boundaries were variously defined at different stages of Bible History, although Jerusalem was always within it.

    Revelation 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
     
  9. cbk

    cbk Guest

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    Here's food for thought. Is it just me or does anyone see the similarities between the "quartet" and the first beast of Revelation?

    In Daniel 7 the four beasts are as follows:

    1) Like a lion with wings of an eagle that were torn off and it was lifted from the ground to stand like a man. (similar to the U.S. becoming a nation from the lion of England.) Note: 1 head and 0 horns

    2) Like a bear. Eat your fill of flesh. (similar to Russia that conquered) Note: 1 head and 0 horns

    3) Like a leopard (with many spots) Had four wings and four heads and was GIVEN authority to rule (similar to the U.N. as the rebuilt Babylon of Nebech. which is diverse and worlwide and which has been GIVEN authority by the nations) Note: 4 heads and 0 horns

    4) Terrifying and powerful with ten horns (could be similar to the E.U. in the near future which on 5/1/2004 will have ten more nations added to it). Note: 1 head and 10 horns.

    Add these beasts together and you get a different beast (organization) which resembles a leopard with feet of a bear and mouth of a lion and seven heads and ten horns. IE, the first beast of Revelation.

    I just think it strange that the most common thing that the U.S., Russia, the U.N., and the E.U. have in common is the peace plan in Israel via the quartet. And that these four also resemble, to me, the beasts of Daniel which when they come together appear to be the same as the beast of Revelation.

    Comments?
     
  10. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Amen to that Brain Damage, It is hard to know what to leave out or put in.
    Thanks mate for remembering those last important verses they put the finishing touches to what I was trying to say.
    Thanks again Brother.
    God bless you.
     
  11. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Greetings C B K, Same thoughts but Daniel eight shows much more. However here are my thoughts on Daniel 7. I am sorry if it is too long, but I found it hard to stop half way.

    Chapter 7
    1. In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
    2. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
    Now I’m going back to remind you of the fact that in Daniel chapter 1: 44.
    Daniel 1:44"And in the DAYS OF THESE KINGS THE GOD OF HEAVEN WILL SET UP HIS KINGDOM which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
    The angel takes Daniel to the "time of the end," which is at the feet of the statue. The Angel doesn’t waste much time getting there.

    Now remembering that we are taken to the FEET of what is a time empire period statue, shows clearly and as we know, this is at the time that God will set up his kingdom, it is only right that the descriptions of the beasts should fit the description of the powers to be at "the time of the end," then proceed to "the end of time which are two different periods, as we shall see.

    Daniel 7: 3. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

    The powers at "the time of the end," are described with symbols that would make sense to us, living at this time. Previous generations would not understand these symbols.

    This is how the Book remains sealed till the time of the end, for none will understand. In Daniel the little Book is sealed until the time of the end.
    Daniel 12:3. But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase."

    In plain English seal up the Book till the time of the end, Lots of people will go backwards and forwards over the words trying to understand it and they will increase their knowledge of it doing so.
    Now I know that I’m pulling bits here and there together but when I study I look for parallels and patterns, in context.
    In Revelation 5: 3. I see the same Angel about to open the Book.
    Rev 5: 3. And NO MAN in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to OPEN THE BOOK, neither to LOOK THEREIN.

    4. And I wept much, because NO MAN was found WORTHY TO OPEN OR READ THE BOOK, neither to LOOK THEREIN.
    5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDA, the ROOT OF DAVID, hath PREVAILED TO OPEN THE BOOK, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    The fact that Jesus has to become a MAN, a son of David, a son of Adam as a family member to earn and pay for the deeds, the inheritance as a man. The inheritance, that was lost by Adam to Satan, hence His lineage is shown in Luke 3: 23. Which is a display of how God does things, legally and correctly. No man can claim the inheritance as Jesus because the lineage history was lost in the destruction of the Temple in 70AD when the Zionists set fire to the records in the Temple, ( according to some Jewish historians). Written agreements between the Romans and Jews. This was a nation fighting amongst themselves whilst being besieged.

    Daniel. Recap.

    Daniel 7: 4. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

    When America was attacked on the 11th September 2001, the British Prime Minister Tony Blaire, the very next day, stood by the American President and said. If I may paraphrase.
    "We are with you 100%."
    Could this be "the time of sorrows," mentioned by Jesus in Math 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21?

    The 1260 days of the two witnesses of Revelation 11, and the 1260 days that those in Judea are told to stay in the wilderness from the daily being taken away until the abomination is set up, that task must fit within 1290 days in Daniel 12: 11, 12, where those that get through to the end of the 1335 days period are given a blessing, these times all fit into the 2300 or 6 & a bit years.

    The 2300 evening and morning period of Daniel 8: 13.of the vision given to Daniel is a little less than the seven years of hardship and this vision is repeated in Daniel 12.
    The whole of Daniel’s “time of the end” vision lasts for 2300 “evening and morning.” Which translated means days. These are not years but days. All the future visions of Daniel concern the time of the end period of “2300 evening and morning,” which the 1260, 1290 and 1335 fit into. These times are for the “time of the end” and the 1335 that God’s people will receive a blessing by getting through, the tribulation period, whether they die or live through it.
    The following verse translation is better read as, the place of the daily the word (sanctuary) has been added.

    Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision (concerning the place of the daily) and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? The place of the daily is only trampled on for 42 months by the Gentiles. 42 months equals 3 ½ years in Rev 11.

    The words say trampled on for 42 months, equals 3 ½ years.

    Daniel 8: 14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    The term days is used for the specific period above. The Sanctuary is polluted, then the sanctuary will be cleansed.
    When we see the descriptions given to certain powers, we can see why the vision would not be understood until the “time of the end” where these powers come into existence.

    The Symbol of the U S A today is the Eagle, the Symbol of Great Britain today is the Lion. The Lion that has eagles wings. The bear? Russia. The leopard? Not yet sure.
    It is not that hard to follow, but try to have understood the vision, even ten years ago, when we had two super powers, would have been impossible until today.

    The wings are plucked and the lion is given the heart of a man and is made to stand like a man. He the lion gets his wings clipped and has to stand like a man. What on earth happens to the greatest single power ever known to man, the U S A ?
    The angel explains, in just a little while.

    Now what ever happens to a power vacuum, when the lion with eagle’s wings goes down?
    Nature doesn’t like a vacuum so here comes the bear.
    The bear, Russia comes up.

    Daniel 7: 5. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

    The bear is told in plain English. Wipe them out!

    I’m not sure about this one. Could it be Asia, China Japan?
    They have the "tiger economy,"
    It has "four wings of a fowl," That’s not as fast as eagle’s wings.
    It has four heads, could this be four adjoining nations, that are given authority!

    6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    This fourth beast is just plain dreadful it is a culmination, a coming together of all the strengths attributed to the lion, the mouth of the lion with eagles wings, the bear’s claws and leopard’s body, speed. This last beast stamps on the residue. Two witnesses?
    It has ten horns, meaning ten leaders as we shall see.
    This 4th power is formed before Satan appears among the kings, as the little horn.

    8. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Now ten horns three plucked up to be replaced by one leaves eight. This one horns starts saying unheard of things against God, as a result the Ancient of Days, the Father reacts. A court scene ensues immediately.

    9. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
     
  12. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Daniel 7:10. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgement was set, and the BOOKS WERE OPENED.

    Everything will be done legally.


    Rev 5:1. And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a BOOK written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
    Rev 5:2. And I saw a STONG ANGEL proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is WORTHY to open the BOOK, and to loose the seals thereof?

    Latter in Daniel there is another angel called Palmini meaning angel of secret numbers, who gives all the numbered periods involved in the vision.

    Now Parallels and patterns. Just like the pride and arrogance of King Nebuchadnezzar, which lead him into trouble for seven years, the horn starts shouting unheard of statements about God, and boasting!
    Which is foolishly dangerous!
    Now let’s pull this together. “Parallels and patterns.” Daniel 7: 11. We have the beast slain, his body given to the flames.


    Daniel 7: 11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the BEAST was SLAIN, and his BODY destroyed, and GIVEN TO THE BURNING FLAME.

    We have the same story in Revelation.
    Revelation 19: 19.And I saw the BEAST, and the KINGS of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the BEAST WAS TAKEN, and with him the FALSE PROPHET that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast ALIVE into a lake of FIRE burning with brimstone.

    The Bible now pinpoints the time periods in detail. I’m NOT adding or multiplying numbers, I’m just reading what the Bible says.

    Daniel 7 :12.As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a SEASON AND TIME.

    The lion, bear, leopard which are many nations, are allowed to live a "SEASON AND TIME.” Which simply put means, 1 year and 3 months, no long drawn out maths just 15 months.

    Now we’re reading Daniel but now Revelation explains in the following verse. The same characters, same story same time, “the end of time” events. Armageddon!

    Why are these nations waiting around?
    Revelation 19: 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of HIM that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Back to Daniel. Recap.

    The fourth beast, In Daniel 7: 7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had TEN HORNS.

    Daniel 7: 8. I CONSIDERED THE HORNS, and, behold, THERE CAME UP ANOTHER LITTLE HORN, before whom there were THREE of the first horns PLUCKED UP by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    The 4th beast has 10 horns minus 3 plus the little horn equals 8.

    Rev 17: 11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    The beast ( king number eight,) which is given a mortal wound, which he receives from Jesus.
    Mortal wounds do not heal on earth only in Heaven and this wound may have been as a result of the war in heaven.
    "He will bruise HIS heel and HE will bruise his head."

    Geneses 3: 15. And I will put ENMITY between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    By the way as a reminder, the enmity/hatred is why the Dragon/Lucifer goes after her offspring who are in the wilderness for 1260 days.

    I’m not making it up , look at the next verse. The 1260 days or about 3 ½ years are mentioned again.
    Rev 12: 6. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

    The next verse says 3 ½ years.
    Rev 12:14. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

    Rev 12: 17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMNANT OF HER SEED, which keep the commandments of God, and have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

    The period of the above verse is for 1260 days, as the two witnesses are witnessing. So the 1260 concerns a designated periods for certain events. It is that straight forward.

    What is the testimony of Jesus?
    2nd Timothy 2: 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Rev 17: 12. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    13. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    14. These shall make war with the LAMB, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL.

    Daniel, back to the Court scene. This is just after the little horn starts making boastful statements about God. However the court sees things differently.

    Dan 7: 13. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought HIM near before HIM.
    14. And there was given HIM DOMINION, and GLORY, and a KINGDOM, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
    We have the same story recorded in Daniel.

    Revelation 12: 12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and STRENGTH, and HONOUR, and GLORY, and blessing.

    It may be hard to believe, but God as clearly shown, can’t do as he likes.
    How much freedom do we give up when we get married.
    Can we do as we like when we marry? No we have another to consider.
    What about, when we have children?
    How much more freedom do we give up for our children?
    Dad? Yes. Will you drive me here and pick up my,,, and so it goes.
    The moment Jesus created free thinking creatures, His children.
    He was no longer free.

    He has rules and there are no short cuts, everything is done by the Book

    The court scene.

    "His judgement," The word in Greek is krisis or His Crises, the translators chose Judgement when we judge we measure, the Lamb was found worthy.

    Revelation 14: 8. Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of HIS judgement is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. There was no nepotism. His crises was exactly that, a fearful time of success or failure in the balance, however being found worthy. They found HIM worthy to regain His crown.

    Let me say this in my own words.
    Jesus is in court, and if the accuser Satan was to say. Your not a man you are God and therefore you can’t take back what is mine, my kingdom.

    Jesus could legally say. Adam, who was my grandfather many generations back, whom I created, lost my inheritance, and as his son I claim it back as a man.

    1 Corinthians 15:45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    I’m the son of Adam and the son of David, the son of man.
     
  13. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Why are you here? Jesus could legally say. I’m here, To claim back the inheritance that Adam lost.
    The court may ask. How can you do that?
    Jesus could say squatters rights and that is a recognised law in many places and is recognised as a legitimate claim.

    The court could ask. What price did you pay?

    Jesus could say. I paid the price with my life.

    The court could say. But you are God.

    I am here as the “Lamb of God.”

    They would have to say. We find you worthy to take back the deeds to the kingdom. Worthy, worthy are you the Lamb we pay Honour and glory to you. This is the humility of Jesus. It is the elders, created beings, that judge their Creator as being worthy.
    It is HIS humility that I cannot fathom.

    The moment Jesus created he had to part Himself from Himself Godness becoming Godness , so that when He created us. He had to become like us.
    The Saviour, became the Lamb in the flesh to buy back the deeds to old Earth. While He become man Godness become a Father to Him. The Father and the Son Two as one.

    Why did He not make Eve from the Ground? He parted some of Adam to make Eve in Adam’s likeness.
    Think about the story, it is about God, He cloned Eve from Adam. Adam was from the Ground the second Adam was a quickening spirit.
    1 Corinthians 15: 45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    It is interesting to note that Satan becomes like us, man, and we become like angels.

    Isaiah 14: 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    Isaiah 14: 15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

    Isaiah 14: 16. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

    Please bear with me for a quick recap.

    Now ten horns three plucked up to be replaced by one leaves eight. This one horns starts saying things about God as a result the Ancient of Days, the Father reacts. A court scene ensues immediately.

    Daniel 7: 9. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    Jesus has been “found worthy to open the books.” So He does and those that are in the books of life are given eternal life through the power of the Lamb of God received by Him in court and given to Him by the Ancient of days.

    Daniel 7:10. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgement was set, and the BOOKS WERE OPENED.

    Everything is done legally.
    From Daniel to Revelation the patterns and parallels are able to link the two.

    Rev 5: And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a BOOK written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
    2. And I saw a STRONG ANGEL proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is WORTHY to open the BOOK, and to loose the seals thereof?

    Recap
    Revelation 19: 19.And I saw the BEAST, and the KINGS of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Daniel 7: 11.I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the BEAST was SLAIN, and his BODY destroyed, and GIVEN TO THE BURNING FLAME.

    Revelation 19. 20. And the BEAST WAS TAKEN, and with him the FALSE PROPHET that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast ALIVE into a lake of FIRE BURNING with brimstone.

    The lion, bear, leopard which are many nations are allowed to live a "season equals three months, a time, equals one year, So that equals one year three months in the next verse.

    Daniel 7 :12.As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


    As we read Daniel, then link Revelation, Revelation explains in the following verse. The same characters, same story, but "time of the end" Has become “the end of time” for Satan’s realm.

    Revelation 19: 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of HIM that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Armageddon takes 15 months, according to Daniel 7 :12. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion is taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


    The 4th beast most terrible.

    In Daniel 7: 7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had TEN HORNS.
    Daniel 7: 8. I CONSIDERED THE HORNS, and, behold, THERE CAME UP ANOTHER LITTLE HORN, before whom there were THREE of the first horns PLUCKED UP by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    The 4th beast has 10 horns minus 3 plus the little horn equals 8.

    Rev 17: 11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    The beast which is given a mortal wound which he receives from Jesus.

    "He will bruise HIS heel and HE will bruise his head."
    Geneses 3: 15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    By the way this is why the Dragon or Lucifer goes after her offspring in Rev 12: 17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMNANT OF HER SEED, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    What is the testimony of Jesus?
    2nd Timothy 2: 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    The whole of Daniel is repeated then enlarged as is Daniel look at this next verse this beast is one of the leaders.

    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    Rev 17: 12. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13.These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    14.These shall make war with the LAMB, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL.
     
  14. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    THE COURT SCENE.

    Dan 7: 13. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought HIM near before HIM. 14And there was given HIM DOMINION, and GLORY, and a KINGDOM, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Revelation 12: 12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and STRENGTH, and HONOUR, and GLORY, and blessing.

    The moment Jesus created free thinking creatures, He was no longer free.
    He has rules and there are no short cuts, everything is done by the Book

    "His judgment," The word in Greek is krisis or His Crises the translators chose Judgment when we judge we measure, the Lamb was found worthy. Revelation 14: 8. Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. There could be no nepotism.
    Let me say this in my own words if I were in court. Your not a man you are God.?

    1 Corinthians 15: 45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    John 14: 9. Jesus replied:
    Philip, I have been with you for a long time. Don’t you know who I AM? If you have SEEN ME, you have SEEN THE FATHER. How can you ask me to SHOW YOU THE FATHER? 10 Don’t you believe THAT I AM ONE with the Father and that the Father is one with me? What I say isn’t said on my own. The Father who lives in me does these things.

    John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Now back to Daniel 7: 15.

    Dan 7: 15. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

    These beasts are kings or leaders.

    17. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
    The kings or leaders are going to lose their inheritance to the Saints.

    18. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

    Twice the Angel Gabriel assures Daniel that the Saints will posses the kingdom forever. That means twice said it is assured and is true.
    Verse 19 shows how the 4th beast is diverse or different it is made up all the previous beasts.

    19. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

    Stamped the residue with his feet; What happens to the two Witnesses? The beast kills them. The Two witnesses I find terribly interesting.

    Daniel 7: 20.And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
    If we have one that’s singular, so two being plural These two Saints will be trampled on.There has to be two Witnesses under Mosaic law and under most modern societies. Two witnesses are needed to bring on a guilty verdict and for the first time there are two Witnesse prophecying in Jerusalem. This has never ever happened before. in that city.
    Luke 13: 34. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not.


    Daniel 7: 22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


    Daniel 7: 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall DEVOUR THE WHOLE EARTH, and shall tread it down, and BREAK IT IN PIECES.

    Rev 11: 18. And the NATIONS WERE ANGRY, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the PROPHETS, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH.


    Daniel 7: 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Daniel 7: 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    In context this is at the time of the end. If we are going to have false Messiah, false prophets, a false timetable, how about a false Armageddon. The two Witnesses are prophesying for 42 months as Jerusalem is being trampled on by the Gentiles

    Revelation 11: 1. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

    The Mosque will come down and a knew Temple will be built because the two Witnesses are told to measure it.

    Revelation 11: 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    3 ½ years.

    Revelation 11: 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    That’s about 3 ½ years.

    Daniel 7: 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    Daniel 7: 28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

    Sorry about the length of my thoughts.
    P C.
     
  15. cbk

    cbk Guest

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    Prophecy Countdown, thanks for your posts.

    In regards to the first beast of Daniel being the U.S., I already see it as complete.

    At one time this nation resembled a lion with wings, for we were a part of England. But, our wings were torn off and we were made to stand like a man when we won the Revolutionary War and adopted the Constitution and created a democratically elected republic which stands today.

    Chronologically, in Daniel, a second beast resembles a bear. It is not said that this bear replaces or takes over the first beast. They could coexist as seperate entities. This may have taken place when Russia became communist in 1918(?) and went forth to conquer. Russia is weaker now, but it still exists as a communist nation and has fulfilled its part of Daniel by eating its fill.

    Chronologically, the U.N. appeared next and may represent the appearance of the rebuilt Babylon that encompasses the world. A leopard has many spots which may represent the different peoples united.

    Chronologically, the E.U. appeared next and appears to be the rebuilt Roman Empire.

    In regards to England, it plays a key role in both the United Nations and the E.U. and is a friend of the U.S.

    Could the first beast be the U.S. and England? Maybe. Could it be the U.S. alone? Maybe. Could it be neither? Maybe.

    Also, if the four beasts are the U.S., Russia, United Nations, and the E.U., then they became ONE on April 4, 2002. Although they existed seperately for many years prior.
     
  16. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Dear C B K, Have you considered the fact that America and Great Britain stand together, and that may be why the eagle's wings are attached to the lion.

    Remember the goat has to attack both the Medes and Persians.
    That is Iran and Iraq (Ram) before the great horn is broken. on the goat

    The ram is standing by the river Ulai which is the river Karun in Iran, where Daniel saw all the action in the vision.
    Would you like me to show you Daniel 8 to make it clearer?
     
  17. cbk

    cbk Guest

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    I have considered it and am a little :scratch: on the matter.

    Will the wings of this alliance be pulled off in the future? Or were they torn off in 1776 and America was left to stand alone? Or, to state it another way, if the first beast of a lion with eagle wings represents the U.S. and England, then, at this moment in time, does this beast still resemble a lion with wings, or has it reached the point of standing like a man??

    I can see England as being part of the U.N. (possible Leopard) and the E.U. (possible fourth beast) with the U.S. standing alone as the one with the heart of a man. And, I can see it your way -- as the U.S. and England still in the form of a lion with eagle wings.

    To many ways to anwer this riddle. :(

    If you believe in a seven year period and that the beasts appear during this time, you will have to wait for the standing as a man. But, I believe the four beasts to be unique, seperate, yet functioning together during the 'end' times -- like the 'quartet'. But, each appeared at different chronological times to reach this point.
     
  18. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Very interesting cbk, I do agree the 2300 days are nearly seven years and that that is all Satan gets.
    The second vision is the same, in kind, or likeness as the first.

    If we look at Daniel 8 and understand that Daniel 12 is a rehash of Daniel 8 you may see, what I’m trying to say.
    Daniel Chapter 8:1. In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, AFTER THAT WHICH APPEARED UNTO ME AT THE FIRST.

    At what time? "The time of the end"
    What powers? Those powers associated with Israel either positively or negatively.
    Where are these powers located? Locations are given clearly, in the Book.
    Are they named? Yes absolutely.

    The Bible is a Jewish Book.
    When we read it it’s about them, when they read. it’s about themselves. We Gentiles impose our Western thinking on this Jewish Book called the Bible.
    The only reason Gentile empires are mentioned, past or future is because they were or will be associated with Israel, for or against.
    The powers at the time of the end, will be if not already, interlocked with Israel and are mentioned as such. It is in that light, that we should be reading the Bible.
    Check it out.
    I see folk getting bogged down with stuff like, could it be this or that power and saying that Daniel and Revelation are symbolic and is a spiritual war only or that it all happened back then, Preterists.


    Daniel sees himself standing at Shushan in the Palace. SHUSHAN was in the extreme South Western part of PERSIA now called IRAN. Now understanding that this vision is at "THE TIME OF THE END" we now have the location of this prophecy in Iran and therefore Iran must be the country concerned.

    In the next verse we are told by Daniel, "I was by the river ULAI, the modern name for this river is KARUN. The KARUN river is of course in IRAN.

    Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of ULAI.


    Daniel looked up and saw the RAM, before the river ULAI or Karun.
    As you know The Medes and Persians were rolled up into one Empire, that put an end to King Belshazzar and his Babylonian empire. . Now Shushan under Cyrus was the first capital of the Medo- Persian empire.
    The Persian side that is, which is modern Iran.

    The Medes were conquered in 558 BC by Cyrus and the two countries blended into one. The modern names of these countries is Iran and Iraq. We should note that Afghanistan was part of Iraq at that time.
    ELAM where the Elamites lived (highlands) This province lay South of Assyria and East of Persia proper.
    The ULAI river (modern name Karun) is in IRAN it originates in the highlands and becomes part of the Tigress & Euphrates river system known as Perath in Hebrew.

    Now I need your attention! there is a message in this.
    Daniel goes into great detail as to where he is and where the ram and goat meet in combat. So, we have a geographical. location
    He is also told when this vision is to take place. "At the time of the end."

    The Little horn IRAN comes up first then the larger IRAN last. IRAQ has come up causing trouble, however IRAN may help IRAQ as the vision implies with the two standing together as the RAM by the river Karun. The smaller horn, Iran came up first against Israel with missiles.
    Iran the larger horn on the ram is coming up second, both pushing but mot yet as one on the ram.

    Daniel 8: 3.Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

    In verse 4. Daniel says the ram is pushing. Where is the ram power pushing?
    Westward, Northward, and Southward.
    He is not pushing East!
    The ram "BECOMES GREAT." No other beast or power can do a thing about the power of the ram and what he grasps he keeps. No one can stop him doing what he likes.

    Now you know and I know that the Moslem religion is a push religion. To spread they need to push in the directions mentioned and they are pushing it.
    I have never seen so many Mosques in so many places.

    They have started to push and when the Americans find out, if they haven’t already, that it is Iran, that is in the thick of this then, look out!
    When we start to look at Israel, Jerusalem, Look out!

    The President of America, the most powerful nation the earth has ever known, does not state that the axis of evil involves IRAN, IRAQ and North Korea for nothing, the President knows something.

    Daniel 8:4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became GREAT.

    Cause and effect
    Cause, The RAM is pushing North, South and West. Knocking off and subduing other nations around him. He did as he liked a local bully and became GREAT!!

    Effect! He pushes too far. He does something to push the Goat, America to counter his belligerence.
    America has had some dealings with Iran and she is concerned about Israel’s safety.
    What makes America so angry? The Goat does not touch the FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH travelling fast from the west.
    That means ships and aircraft, missiles!
    He is one , He has one HORN, He is so angry, no hesitation this time, he goes straight in.

    Daniel 8: 5. And as I was considering, behold, an he GOAT came from the WEST on the face of the WHOLE EARTH, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
    Just put your finger on an atlas sphere, spin it anti-clockwise and see where your finger travels pointing from Iran-Iraq West. If they keep pushing North West and South then the country from the West is going to whack them good because America can’t be pushed around.
    This is a cause and effect.
    He doesn’t touch the ground!
    Aircraft and ships and plenty of them, covering the "WHOLE EARTH."
    Only a few years ago (until 1985) we could not have realised this vision because we had two super powers. Now we only have ONE. The U S of A. With eagles wings with the lion?
    There is only one horn on that Goat which denotes America may go it alone. "You are either for us or against us." Said U S President George Bush.

    Now the Ram is still pushing. Which makes the goat from the West very angry!
    The powerful goat goes straight into the ram’s backyard, Iran and Iraq.
    What ever Iran, the larger horn and his lesser horn partner Iraq, do to America?
    I don’t know.

    But it is going to make America so very, very angry the goat is going to hammer both Iraqis and the Iranians something chronic. "Fury" or Furious is the word the Bible uses.


    Daniel 8: 6. And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

    As the Goat, the USA gets closer to Iran, the Ram, he is moved with choler, which is an old English word meaning anger, the goat moves with such rage against the Ram that he annihilates him.
    Puts him down permanently. No power on earth will be able to stop the U S A. "Either you are with us or against us."

    Daniel 8: 7. And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand
    The two horns are broke Iraq and Iran are fixed to the ground.
    Now the Ram "became great." But the Goat became VERY GREAT, There’s only one world power that can come from the West and do this to the RAM Iraq and Iran. That power is America and we all know it!

    Will America survive this?

    Daniel 8: 8.Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

    Something divides the one very great horn into four notable ones. A division. A vacuum is created for another world leader.

    Now you know that America buys favours with millions of dollars Afghanistan has cost the U S lots of moolah. How does the greatest nation on earth that becomes "VERY GREAT" suddenly lose its power? Turn off the oil?
    A world recession?
    A world disaster.
    What ever it is, America can’t use the carrot approach, all she has is the big stick.
     
  19. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Rev 13: 17. And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    Will America survive? This war with the goat will be won by America no doubt about it the Ram gets done in.
    If however this causes an economic collapse it will be a pyrrhic victory!
    A vacuum is created and nature does not like a vacuum, there needs to be a replacement to fill the gap. Out of one of these horns comes up, a Little horn. He’s not GREAT like the ram He’s not VERY GREAT like the USA, he’s EXCEEDINGLY GREAT!

    Now there is a message in this!

    Daniel 8: 9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
    Which way is he pushing? He is pushing SOUTH and EAST and toward the "PLEASANT LAND." Israel.

    Why does this fellow want to get into Israel? He wants to sit where he ought not!

    Where is it that he wants to sit?
    Isaiah 14: 12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, SON OF THE MORNING! how art thou cut down to the GROUND, which didst WEAKEN THE NATIONS!

    It is this angel of the morning, meaning first created that weakens us on earth.

    Isaiah 14: 13.For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION, in the SIDES OF THE NORTH:

    The MOUNT IN THE SIDES OF THE NORTH of the CONGREGATION.
    That is The TEMPLE MOUNT of the CONGREGATION.
    In Jerusalem.


    Daniel 8: 10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.


    Satan, which means accuser waxes great, grows, increases swells, becomes a big shot even to the host, the man of the house. He casts down some of the host and the stars from heaven. He has caused Angels, evil angels to come down to earth. Even some of the host and stamped on them.

    The two Witnesses Elijah and Moses, are caused to be cast down and the are stamped on by the beast. The Gentiles will move on Jerusalem.
    Revelation 11: 1. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the TEMPLE OF GOD, and the ALTAR, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is GIVEN UNTO THE GENTILES: and the holy city shall they TREAD UNDER FOOT FORTY AND TWO MONTHS. The fact that John is told to measure the Temple proves it is to be rebuilt.

    The two Witnesses are going to preach for 3 ½ years they are murdered by the beast. In the midst of the week 3 ½ days later in the same week they are raised.
    Revelation 11: 7.And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and KILL THEM. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED where also our Lord was crucified.
    The city is Jerusalem.

    Rev 11: 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies THREE DAYS and an HALF, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. Rev 11: 10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two PROPHETS tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11And after THREE DAYS and an HALF the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    Daniel 8: 11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily (sacrifice) was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

    THE PRINCE of the host is Jesus.
    The Daily was taken away.
    The place of the daily was taken away the word sacrifice was added by the translators thinking Daniel had been doing some short hand, forgetting Rev 20;18,19, about not adding words or taking them away from the prophecies in the Book.



    Daniel 8: 12. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    A host (man of ceremonies) is given against the place of the daily by reason of transgression. ( violating a rule or law)
    "Sacrifice" and "him" were added and mislead.

    Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    In plain English one Angel asks. How long will he get away with it?


    Daniel 8:14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    Now the proper translation is “2300 evening and morning.” It could be six and a bit years or 2300 evening and morning as it is rendered from Greek meaning 1150 evening and 1150 evening equals three and a bit years. The Angel Palmini is only doing his job.
    Now the Angel that gives these numbers is the Angel Palmini.
    Which means, Wonderful Numberer, or Angel of SECRET numbers
    Look for a Bible with a marginal help, to find the Angel Palmini.

    Please do not get the following statement by our Lord also in Hebrews 8:8. Confused with what the abomination causing desolation does to the Temple ( yet to be built because the witnesses are told to measure it in Rev 11: 1.
    Jeremiah 31: 31. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    We are told that Satan shall seek to change laws and times Daniel 7: 25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change TIMES AND LAWS: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    That is about 3 ½ years when the two Witnesses are prophesying.

    They are caught up in Jerusalem for 3 ½ years and can’t leave until raised 3 ½ days after being killed by the beast.

    Jesus does not cause the following to happen. HE puts an end to it as the Lamb at the second coming.
    Satan mimics Jesus he looked like a lamb but spoke like a dragon.

    Satan seeks to change the laws and times, he has to beat the fullness of time set by the Father, so he comes early!
    Daniel 9: 27. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Lets go back to Revelation 11: 13.to read the same end of this vision of Daniel 8.

    The fake covenant is signed in the midst of the week, as a result the two witnesses are killed by the beast.

    I know it’s in the midst of the week because Daniel was told by Gabriel. It is within this same week, the middle that they are murdered and guess what, 3 ½ days later at the end of that week they are raised.

    At Trumpet 7, resurrection and woe number 3 kicks in Armageddon starts and lasts for 15 months as we have already studied.
    Revelation 11: 11. Revelation 11: 11. And after THREE days and an HALF the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and GREAT FEAR fell upon THEM which saw them.



    Rev 11: 12 .And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their ENEMIES beheld them. 13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    Rev 11:14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the THIRD WOE COMETH QUICKLY.

    Daniel 8:14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    When Jesus kicks out the lodger Lucifer, "the abomination that causes desolation," out of the Temple mount at the sides of the North of the congregation, Then and only then will the Sanctuary be cleansed.
     
  20. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Dan 8; 15. And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
    Daniel like us all wanted to know the meaning of the VISION not just part of it, all of it. The Book does say "vision."

    Dan 8; 16And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of ULAI, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
    I n plain English. GABRIEL!! Explain the vision to this man Daniel.

    Now the Angel Gabriel is a big Angel and Daniel doesn’t realise how big until he comes kind of really close.
    The size and magnitude of this mighty Angel is so overwhelming he scares the living daylights out of Daniel, who by the now is quite elderly.

    17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.



    18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: FOR AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END shall be.

    I can’t understand Preterists or Seventh Day Adventist teaching that this Vision is fulfilled


    20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

    Bingo! Hit the nail on its head, Iraq and Iran, at the time of the end.



    21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

    Greeks was a term used for non-Jewish peoples. courtesy of, "THE EVERYDAY BIBLE DICTIONARY."
    A Westerner would fit the description.

    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

    Sadly for America is going to be split. Four kingdoms will emerge
    "But not in his power." Not under his control. Not under a President but four leaders.

    Remember the little horn comes up out of one of the four that come up after the big horn is broken.
    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
    Satan turns up, a fierce King Remember he’s like a lamb but speaks like a dragon.


    24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    This is the fake Armageddon The lamb that speaks like a dragon will be very persuasive.


    25 And through his policy also he shall cause CRAFT to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Craft is an old English word for witchcraft, magic.
    "By peace shall destroy many." The Greek translation reads,
    By his prosperity he shall destroy many.
    He goes to Jerusalem. You can’t buy or sell unless you receive the mark of the beast 666. If you receive the mark you have had it. This is why when she is punished, in one hour all the trading ships stand off and watch.
    Revelation 18: 17. For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
    18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

    19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
    Revelation 22: 12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my REWARD is WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    The resurrection to everlasting life is His reward for His people.
    When is the resurrection? At trumpet seven.
    Paul wrote "At the last trump the dead in Christ shall rise. Sorry no
    pre-rapture,,,, not in the script!


    26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

    Again the time is stated that it is not far many days.

    27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

    Poor Daniel he wanted to understand but how could he? There were no powers or circumstances back then, to even hazard a guess, that would even mildly conform to the last vision and Daniel knew it!

    Maranatha.

    Prophecy Countdown.
     
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