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U.S. Babylon in Prophecy ?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by caddy, Jun 29, 2003.

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  1. 7891b

    7891b Conqueror

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    PC, the ram with two horns, and the goat, could
    be referring to the Medes-Persians and Greece.
    Remember? Greece conquered the Medes and the
    Persians. Greece ( the horn of the Goat ) defeats the Medes and the Persians ( two horns of the ram.)

    Just a thought.
     
  2. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Good point 7891b, however let me get you thinking, just for a moment about this possibility.

    The TIMING.

    Daniel is told “understand o son of man, the vision concerns the time of the end.”

    Now if we are told where this is going down near the river Ulai in Iran and we are told the two powers are Iran and Iraq, which are the two horns on the Ram, one being the smaller horn Iraq, comes up FIRST and the larger horn, Iran comes up LAST on the ram.

    Who is next, (in these "time of the end" days) on 'America's list?

    We have seen America and Britain deal with the first horn that comes up, Iraq!

    Whose turn next?

    Remember the TIME factor is at the “TIME OF THE END,” not way back up the time statue when Babylon or the Medes-Persians/ Iraq and Iran, empires existed, or the Greek empire was around or when the Roman empire was strutting the world stage at the legs. They were way back up the time statue not at the feet

    All these last four latest beast powers are at the feet.

    Now were the previous powers around at the same time?

    Think about it, the last four are around at the same time!

    We can’t go further down than the feet or we dig into the dirt. Maybe we are.

    We are told when, where and who.

    The lion is going to get his wings clipped to bring him down a peg or two.

    Daniel’s vision is repeated but is explained differently but is the same story.

    At the peak of the goats power he becomes very great and his horn is broken.
    This is the story of the lion getting his wings clipped.

    The bear comes up after the lion to fill the void, then the leopard comes up last before all three become one world power.

    The lions mouth, bears claws and the leopards body.

    I haven’t dealt with Daniel 12 yet and that is a repeat of 8.

    The term Greek, Greece is a term used for Westerner as I have show on previous postings. But if you are not sure I can explain it again

    So what do we have 7891b?

    We have the nations involved.

    The geographical location, by the river Ulai, called modern name, Karun in Iran.

    We have the time. “The time of the end.”

    We have these powers coming up at the feet of the statue, so Alexander or the Romans or past powers are not in the picture but only as nation members of the many nation fourth beast.
    When the fourth beast is set up, the little horn will come on the scene.

    I hear folk say it’s this religion or that, well try all.

    Mohammed dreamed of a Messiah come down on the dome of the rock before he died. Moslems wait for a coming Messiah.

    Jews look far a coming Messiah.

    Christians look for the second coming of the Messiah.

    All the lamb that speaks like a dragon has to do is, turn up.

    What do you think 7891b?
    Does what I say make sense and is the timing right?

    Maramatha.
    P C.
     
  3. 7891b

    7891b Conqueror

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    Yes it is clear, PC. However, in Daniel 8, you must look
    at the verses AFTER the ones about the battle between the goat and the ram. Check out Daniel 8:11-12.

    Is this not the same goat that you are referring to as the US? The US takes away the daily sacrifice?
     
  4. 7891b

    7891b Conqueror

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    Quote from PC:

    PC, Look at Daniel 8:20-21. It says "Grecia" is the
    goat with the horn.

    Is that clear, PC? The vision of the ram and the
    goat is about the kings of Media (Darius) and Persia
    (Cyrus) being up rooted by the king of Grecia
    (Alexander the Great ).

    If you want, I'll clarify better for you in a longer
    post.

    God bless you brother.

    Grecia is Greece. This is the greek empire brother.
     
  5. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    I see your point 6781b, let me explain what I see which I should have explained in more detail.
    I have never said that it was the lion with eagles wings/goat, US power that practised and prospered and takes away the daily. I have never said that at all.
    If I have given you that impression I do apologise most sincerely.

    The Ram as I have already explained in my previous post, is made up of the Medes-Iraqis & Persians-Iranians who push North West South, at the time of the end.
    For that is the time of the vision and is therefore only applicable within that time, “The time of the end” period. Not in Alexander’s time at the thighs of brass.

    Daniel 8:8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


    We see that the lion with eagle’s wings, using identifying images as, that of Great Britain-lion and America – eagle’s wings. The ram, Iraq and Iran.
    So when I say America in this context I must also include Britain to be fair. However if other countries join in, to attack Iran under the same banner powers then, I see no problem.

    The lion is going to get it’s wings ripped off and be given the heart of a man.

    The goat is brought low. It’s world power greatly reduced.

    6781b your question to me was .
    “Is this not the same goat that you are referring to as the US? The US takes away the daily sacrifice?”

    My answer is, No.
    Let me make this absolutely clear.
    It is not the Lion with eagles wings /goat power the USA that will practice and prosper or take away the daily.

    America will have a great victory against Iraq and Iran, however after the victory the great horn will be broken, whether from a lack of oil bringing on an instant world recession, or the US borrowing herself into poverty due to wars. I am not sure.

    But a one world order cannot proceed whilst there is a one world power left.
    So the Goat has to go.

    Firstly, as this is very important, I must show you WHO IT IS THAT “practices and prospers and TAKES AWAY THE DAILY, by the way, the Bible does not say “the daily (sacrifice) was taken away,” the word (sacrifice) was added by the translators and that is why it is in italics.

    Let me identify the MAN, that “takes away the daily,” because this is important.

    Isaiah 14:10. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

    Isaiah 14:11. Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    Isaiah 14:12. How art thou FALLE FROM HEAVEN, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which DIDST WEAKEN THE NATIONS!

    The little horn is Lucifer that comes up out of the nations that he WEAKENS, as one of the horns meaning leaders/ kings, The allies and other great world powers such as the bear and leopard are going to see this great leader. He will be bent on going into Jerusalem Israel “the pleasant land.”

    Some of the kings will support him and some will not. Three horns or kings are pulled out.
    I really need your attention 6781b here for me to back it up with Bible.
    If we go back to Daniel 7 it will be clearer because we have to look at the whole story, and as hard as that is, we have to remember ALL of it, the whole of Daniel.

    I could just shorten it by paraphrasing it but I will not take away the words in this prophecy. I will capitalise for emphasis.

    Daniel 7:4. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till THE WINGS thereof were PLUCKED, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

    Down goes the USA and Britain a few notches.

    5And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

    6. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

    7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and IT HAD TEN HORNS.

    8, I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another LITTLE HORN, before whom there were THREE OF THE FIRST HORNS PLUCKED UP by the roots: and, behold, in THIS HORN were eyes like the EYES OF A MAN, and a MOUTH SPEAKING great things.

    Below judgment begins.


    Daniel 7: 9, I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


    Daniel 7: 10. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the JUDGMENT WAS SET, and the BOOKS were OPENED.

    The angel explains the vision to Daniel.
    Repeat and expansion of the vision.

    Daniel 7: 20. And of the TEN HORNS that were IN HIS HEAD, and of the OTHER which came up, and before whom THREE FELL; even of that HORN that had EYES, and a MOUTH that spake very GREAT THINGS, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    21. I beheld, and THE SAME HORM MADE WAR WITHT THE SAINTS, and PREVAILED against them;

    22, UNTIL the Ancient of days came, and JUDGEMENT was given TO THE SAINTS of the MOST HIGH; and the time came that the SAINTS POSSESSED the KINGDOM.
     
  6. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Reading the above we can see that Satan will suddenly appear. It is Satan that practices and prospers and takes away the daily. It is not the goat that does this at all. These powers are around at the time when God sets up HIS kingdom so the goat can’t be Greece under Alexander.

    The horn does it with the Gentiles, not just Greeks. The whole world is in on it.
    They also follow Satan’s other cohort the beast with the mortal wound.

    Revelation 13:1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having SEVEN HEADS and TEN HORNS, and upon his horns TEN CROWNS, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a LEOPARD, and his FEET were as OF A BEAR, and his MOUTH as the MOUTH OF A LION: and THE DRAGON GAVE HIM HIS POWER, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw ONE OF HIS HEADS AS IT WERE WOUNDED TO DEATH. and HIS deadly WOUND was healed: and ALL THE WORLD WONDERED AFTER THE BEAST.

    Satan is also called the dragon see Rev 12:9. And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that old serpent, called THE DEVIL, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Revelation 13: 4. And THEY WORSHIPPED THE DRAGON which gave POWER TO THE BEAST: AND THEY WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a MOUTH SPEAKING great things and BLASPHEMIES; and POWER was GIVEN unto HIM to continue FORTY TWO MONTHS.
    How does the second beast get his Wound .
    “He shall bruise His heel and He shall bruise his head.”
    Deadly wounds “unto death” don’t heal on Earth he gets it in the war of Heaven.

    “It,” the little horn.
    Daniel 8: 10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

    In the last above verse it mentions the “host” who are the host that are cast out of heaven and stamped on?
    Who is the Prince of the host?
    I will let you figure that out for yourself.

    Daniel 8: 11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down

    It is the horn Satan that magnifies himself. He takes away the daily and he practised and prospered. The second beast also is saying things in support of Satan.

    12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


    Now to your other good points 6781b.

    Quote.
    “PC, Look at Daniel 8:20-21. It says "Grecia" is the
    goat with the horn.”

    Daniel 8:20
    "The ram which you sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia."

    "And the rough GOAT is the KING OF GRECIA: and
    the great horn that is between his eyes is the first
    king."
    Is that clear, PC? The vision of the ram and the
    goat is about the kings of Media (Darius) and Persia
    (Cyrus) being up rooted by the king of Grecia
    (Alexander the Great ).

    If you want, I'll clarify better for you in a longer
    post.

    God bless you brother.

    Good points 7891b, however let me get you thinking, just for a moment about some possibilities.
    With your permission may I repeat your last statement in segments otherwise I may do you the disservice of not answering them all. I hope you don’t mind me doing this because your rendering is complex and very detailed.

    6781b’s Quote.
    “PC, Look at Daniel 8:20-21. It says "Grecia" is the
    goat with the horn.”

    “Daniel 8:20
    The ram which you sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia."

    My answer.
    I agree with you that they are Iraq and Iran but both countries are at the time of the end. That is at the feet of iron and clay of the statue, not half way up it, at the thighs. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the leopard is the Greek power under Alexander.
    If it does please show me?


    Second part of 6781b’s quote.
    "And the rough GOAT is the KING OF GRECIA: and
    the great horn that is between his eyes is the first
    king."

    The first King of Greece was not Alexander. He was the second king
    after his father.
    The Bible is a Jewish book so we have to see what they meant by, Greece, Greeks, Grecians.

    From the Everyday Bible dictionary.
    Greece, Greeks, Grecians.
    The histories of Greece and Palestine are little connected with each other.
    In Gen10:2-5 Moses mentions the descendants of Javan as peopling the isles of the Gentiles,; and when the Hebrew came into contact with the Ionians of Asia Minor, and recognised them as the long-lost
    Islanders of the western migration, it was natural that they should mark the similarity of the sound between Javan and Iones.
    Accordingly the Old Testament word which is Grecia, in authorised version Greece, Greeks, etc is in Hebrew, however, is sometimes retained. Isa 66: 19; Ezek 27: 13.
    The name of the country, Greece, occurs once in the New Testament, Acts 20:2, as opposed to Macedonia. Gentiles.
    The term Greeks was the term used for non-Jewish peoples.
    So Greek or Grecian meaning Westerner shows the goat to be just that from the West.
    So the first king will be a Westerner from the West.
    Daniel 8:5. And as I was considering, behold, an he GOAT came FROM THE WEST on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. And as I was considering, behold, an he GOAT FROM THE WEST on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

    I see the goat as being Western countries not Greece under Alexander, because the timing is off hundreds and hundreds of years and is not at “the time of the end.”

    I have a problem with your last statement. Because of the above.

    6781b quote.
    “Is that clear, PC? The vision of the ram and the
    goat is about the kings of Media (Darius) and Persia
    (Cyrus) being up rooted by the king of Grecia
    (Alexander the Great ).”

    The TIMING. Understand the vision concerns “the time of the end.”
    Alexander was not around at the time of the end, at the feet, but way up the statue and if you say that the goat is Greece, then you would have to say the lion was Babylon, the bear was Medo-Persia, the leopard was Greece and the fourth beast Roman Empire.
    Again the timing is off because ALL these beasts the LION, BEAR, LEOPARD are ALL AROUND AT THE SAME TIME. So they can’t be past long gone empires.
    They also come up at the same time.
    My Bible back up follows.
    I will highlight my biblical evidence of what I say, by using capitals.

    Daniel 7:2. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3And FOUR GREAT BEASTS CAME UP from the sea, diverse one from another.

    4The first was like a LION, and had EAGLERS WINGS: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it. 5And behold another beast, a second, like to a BEAR, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6After this I beheld, and lo another, like a LEOPARD, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and DOMINION WAS GIVEN TO IT.
    7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a FOURTH BEAST, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had TEN HORNS.
    8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another LITTLE HORN, before whom there were THREE of the first HORNS PLUKED UP by the roots: and, behold, in this HORN were eyes like the EYES OF MAN, and a MOUTH speaking great things.
    9I beheld till the THRONES were cast down, and the ANCIENT OF DAYS did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: THE JUDGMENT was set, and the BOOKS were OPENED. 11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which THE HORN SPAKE spake: I beheld even till THE BEAST WAS SLAIN, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12AS CONCERNING THE OTHER BEASTS, they had their dominion taken away: yet THEIR LIVES WERE PROLONGED for a SEASON AND TIME.

    We have the same story same time where the lion, bear, leopard, are waiting for a “SEASON AND TIME” 15 month waiting to be put to the sword.
    Rev 19 And I saw THE BEAST, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And THE BEAST WAS TAKEN, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And THE REMNANT WERE SLAIN WITH THE SWORD of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Daniel is told “understand o son of man, the vision concerns the time of the end.”

    I Pray that this is of help to you 6781b.
    Your servant in Jesus.
    P C.
    ps.
    If you wish you can explain how you see it and I would look forward to it.
     
  7. 7891b

    7891b Conqueror

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    PC, you know the part about the Grecians you wrote down, how it was connected somehow with
    Greece, did you take that from Smith's Bible Dictionary? I'm asking because I looked up Grecians,
    and I got the exact same answer as you posted.
     
  8. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    6781b, I got the information from Nelsons Electronic Bible reference Library.
    Also from the Interlinear Bible, Hebrew, Greek, English and checking the words used, From the Everyday Bible dictionary, it is good to know that you have the same information from another source.
    I thought the same as you about Alexander and to my shock horror I found things weren’t as they seemed, man that was an eye opener for me, so now I stay fluid and look at whatever folk wish to show me, and in doing so have grown.

    Thanks for checking it out 6781b, that was good.
    Your Brother in Christ P. C.
     
  9. Atkin

    Atkin Member

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    I am curious as to know how Satan would be able to use a computer, drive a car and live amongst humans in order to control them like a world leader that He would wish to be.

    What nationality would he have and which nation will give him a place of abode.

    Can he speak English and command people? God never allows Satan to reside and God took away Satan's ability to appear as a human.

    Satan being a spirit, gives spiritual power to other humans in the Beast leaders of Rev 13 and the human false prophets of Rev 13:13.

    Human beings cannot see Satan, Jesus can feel Satan's presence as Satan communicated with him during the temptation in Judea.
    Human beings of our generation cannot speak or see Satan in human form.'
    In the garden of Eden, serpents and other animals were more intelligent back then , before the curse of Genesis 3:15 hence Satan could use a serpent to speak/act to deceive Eve. But as we see, Satan has never worn clothes and eaten food as a human and since He cannot use a computer, drive a car, speak english etc, He cannot be the President of the Planet directly. He will influence the Beast spiritually as defined clearly SATAN HANDS OVER POWER AND THRONE TO BEAST REVELATION 13:2-4

    Satan cannot wear clothes and live amongst humans in human form.
     
  10. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

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    No I do not believe that the us is Babylon. I do however believe the US to be in the book of Rev. The beast of Rev. 13 is the same beast the harlot rides in chapt. 17..Also the beast is the same as the little horn of both Dan. 7 and Dan. 8. The so called Antichrist. The woman and the beast of rev. 17 Rep. the same thing as the beast in ch.13. By going back to Dan. 2 we see there will be only 4 major world ruling power, (the world as was known at the time of ea. power). We are told in Dan 2 that the first power in the line of succesessions would be the Babylonian Empire (v. 38).................... I am going to slip in notes about Dan. 8. I will do that in red so that it can be seperated from the other. Now if we check out history we see that no matter how we cut it only 3 other world ruling powers came after Babylon. Medo-Persia, Grecia, and roman Empire, in both its pagan stage and its Papal stage. According to Dan. 2 this Roman empire would be the last world ruling power. It is that power that is up and running at the time of Christ's return. In fact that last power will be in power from its start all the way up to the return of Jesus. It will never be completely overthrown. The one that will do that will be God. Daniel 7 repeats and enlarges the details of ch.2 Dan. 8 repeats and enlarges the details of both ch. 2 and ch.7. Dan. 7 pretty much tells the same story. In Dan., like in Rev. there is a lot of repeating and inlarging. Each time a prophecy is repeated there is more detail shown. The first beast to appear in Dan. 7 is a lion. This lion has wings. It is a known fact that artifacts from the ruins of Babylon show lions, and there are several that are winged. In ch. 8 the ram represents Medo-Persia. We are told that in v. 20. ....... The horns on this ram, are lopsided like the bear of ch. 7.....the higher horn comes up last v. 3. and one did come up first. It became the more dominant one......It pushes westward, nothward, and southward. They pusthe till they collected 127 provinces that extended from India to Ethiopia. This Ram looses its power to the Goat, by way of a vicious fight/war. v.7,8...The ram became great, but its conquerer became even greater (V.8) This beast looses it's power and along comes medo-persia. Medo-persia is a union of 2 different nations. The lopsided bear represents this union. The lopsided ness of the bear demonstrates that one of these are more dominant, or will become more dominent than the other. The third is Greece. This power is represented by a leopard with 4 heads. not long after Grecia beat the medo-persians, Their king, Alexander the great died. The kingdom was eventually divided amongst 4 of his generals. that is the purpose of the 4 heads, to show this division. ....... In Ch.8 the Goat is said to be Grecia, v. 21).. ... This Represents the same as the leopard of ch. 7. This goat comes from the west...Greece was west of Persia, so it is said it came from the west. ........ It is said not to have touched the ground v. 5. This would fit perfectly with the leopard as well. the leopard had wings that represented the speed at which it worked. Grecia under alexander was swift and throughough in its attcak. ...... This goat has a notable horn. This was not shown in the leopard. but is shown here. this Horn gets broken off. This horn isn't broken in battle. It is broken during its very great stage. It is not an over throw of powers. It was the death of Alexander the great, the "first king", Then 4 others come up after. These represent the 4 generals that the kindgom was divided among. ...........In order for this kingdom to take over it would have to be greater than the previous in order to conquer. Grecia becomes very great. The non descript beast of Ch. 7 represents the same as the legs of iror and the feet which are mixed with clay of Dan. 2. ...This would be the 4th kingdom to come up and that was the Roman Empire in both its pagan and papal stages. The 10 toes and the ten horns = the divisions of the Western Roman Empire during the pagan stage. There were upheavals with in the empire. various provinces fought and gained the freedom to rule themselves. Ea. of these ten divisions, had their own king. This is why we are told in Dan.7:24 that the horns were 10 kings that "shall arise". Neither of these kingdoms attacked Rome and over threw. They just gained their individual freedom. These 10 major divisions were: ANGL0-SAXONS-EnglandaLAMANNI-GermansBURGUNDIANS-Switzerland VISIGOTHS-SpainFRANKS-FranceLOMBARDS-ItalySUEVI-PortugalVANDALS......OSTROGOTHS.............HERULINow three of these were to be uprooted when the little horn rose from among them. The 3 that were uprooted were the last three on my list. in order for the little horn(the papal stage of the Empire) was to remove the 3 opposing countries that stood in the way. This little horn would rule for time times and a dividing of time. tim= 1yr. times =2yrs dividing of time = 6 mo.In Bible prophecy a day is = to a yr. So this little horn phase of the Roman empire would rule for 1260 years. This it did. In 538 the last of the 3 opossing tribes were totally anhilated. The little horn then was able to exercise its full powers. And so called"Christians" began to persecute Christians that remained faithful to the will of God. Now to the little horn of ch.8. This horn comes up among the 4 horns on the goat. This little horn exhibits the same characteristics as both the pagan and papal stage of the Roman Empire. Now for any to take over a kingdom that is considered very great, it would have to be even greater. The little horn "waxed exceeding great"...In chp. 7 itis described as "strong exceedingly" v. 7.............Rome was to wax exceedingly great toward the south, the east, and the pleasant land. Rome did this.Egypt was made a province of the Roman Empire in 30 B.C.,conquered Syria in 65 B.C., and made it a province. Judea is called "the pleasant land" in many scriptures. The Romans made it a province of their empire in 63 B.C. .... This empire in both stages persecuted God's people. This little horn would attempt to do something that no other power had done before it. It reached up to the heavens, signifying its challenge to God's authority, ans act that reflects the same spirit of rebellion that possessed Lucifer at the beginning of the great controversy(Isa. 14:13,14). This little horn did stand up against "the prince of the host," "Prince of princes"(v. 11, 25).This prince is Christ. Rome fought against the Prince, and His people, and His sanctuary. His war was religious in nature.
     
  11. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

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    God commanded the priests in the sanctuary perform various acts every day throughout the year. one of these was every morning and evening a sacrifice was offered for the sins of the people. (Ex. 29:38,42). Jesus became the sacrifice by which our sins could be forgiven. Thru the blood of the Lamb we are forgiven of our sins if we confess them. In the RCC, which was the head and rule of PapalRome, it was taught that this could be done by going to the priest, and allowing him to forgive sins. Thus the daily sacrifice was taken away, and still is. There are many truths that have been rejected by this religious power and still is to this day: like the bowing before idols. Infant baptism. penance, purgatory,immortality of the soul etc. All of these and more were brought into the church from its pagan anscestors during the reign of the pagan empire. I would say that truth was cast to the ground, and I would say that this power "magnified itself even to the prince of the host" v.12. By her actions the papal powers by transgressin have made desolation of the holy temple. It has "trodden " them underfoot. Verse 17 uses this pharse: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. It is simply stating the vision will go to the time of the end, just as the Nebby's dream, and the vision of ch.7. There is no other kingdoms that would be world wide after the iron part of the image in Dan.2. That iron image will be the 4th power and will be around until the coming of Christ. There will be no 5th world power, or 6th, just the 4th, which stll has its seat to this day. Right over in Rome. The seat it was handed in the mid 6th century. It never completely lost its rule, tho it received a deadly wound that is healing very rapidly. To say another power is to arise that would be a world ruling power would be to throw away the knowledge God gave us thru Dan. in chap. 2 and 8. It is the non discript beast, and the legs of iron that will be ruling when it is destroyed with out hands. For Iraq, Iran, or any other nation to be a world ruling power it would have to over throw the little horn. To do that would mean it is another, a 5th power on the rise. Again, that would make a liar out of Daniel whom Jesus calls a prophet.
     
  12. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Atkin quote.
    I am curious as to know how Satan would be able to use a computer, drive a car and live amongst humans in order to control them like a world leader that He would wish to be.


    My answer.
    Look in the Bible and when you realise it has nothing to do with cars or computers you will have your answer.

    The Bible tells us exactly how Satan will dominate this planet. It is economic. If you control the man’s pocket, you control the man.

    Rev13:17. And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.



    Atkin quote.
    Can he speak English and command people? God never allows Satan to reside and God took away Satan's ability to appear as a human.


    My answer
    Look in your Bible to see whether it mentions that Satan needs to learn English or not to set up, then you will have your answer.


    Atkin quote.
    “What nationality would he have and which nation will give him a place of abode.”


    My answer. try Mount Zion, in Israel.
    What sayeth the Bible?
    Isaiah 14:12. How art thou FALLEN FROM HEAVEN, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut DOWN TO THE GROUND, which didst WEAKEN THE NATIONS!

    Isaiah 14:13. . For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I WILL SIT UPON THE MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION, IN THE SIDES OF THE NORTH:

    Psalm 48:1. Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness. 2Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is MOUNT ZION, on the SIDES OF THE NORTH, THE CITY OF GREAT KINGS


    Atkin quote.
    Satan being a spirit, gives spiritual power to other humans in the Beast leaders of Rev 13 and the human false prophets of Rev 13:13.


    My answer.
    The word power translates, authority.
    “The other beast” in the following verse is Satan that comes up.
    He is the lamb that SPEAKS like a dragon.

    Rev 13:11. And I beheld ANOTHER BEAST coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and HE SPAKE as a dragon.

    The first beast that came up first, has the deadly wound. Mortal wounds don’t heal on Earth.
    Clue.
    “He Shall bruise HIS heel and HE shall bruise his head.”

    As Satan comes up after the first beast he gives the first beast authority.

    Rev 13:12. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


    Atkin quote.
    Human beings cannot see Satan, Jesus can feel Satan's presence as Satan communicated with him during the temptation in Judea.
    Human beings of our generation cannot speak or see Satan in human form.'


    My answer.
    What sayeth the Bible?
    Rev13: 13.And HE DOETH great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth IN THE SIGHT OF MEN, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; SAYING TO THEM that dwell on the earth, that they should “MAKE AN IMAGE TO THE BEAST,” which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


    Atkin quote.
    In the garden of Eden, serpents and other animals were more intelligent back then , before the curse of Genesis 3:15 hence Satan could use a serpent to speak/act to deceive Eve.


    My answer.
    Where in the Bible does it say “animals were more intelligent back then?”
    As an example. The donkey that spoke to Balaam was enabled by the angel of the Lord.

    Numbers 22:28. And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

    We must ask. Who was behind the speaking serpent?
    Satan and his angels work together.
    When reading the story of temptation we come to the next verse concerning the first Satan then the beast.

    Geneses 3;15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    The word enmity/hatred /”wroth.”
    Rev 12:17. And THE DRAGON was WROTH with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Who receives a bruised head?
    It is the first beast that has the wound in his head not Satan.
    Revelation 13:12. And he exerciseth all the power of the FIRST BEAST before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose DEADLY WOUND was healed.

    Rev 13:4. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    Coincidentally. we come around to the 42 months again.


    Atkin, quote.
    But as we see, Satan has never worn clothes and eaten food as a human and since He cannot use a computer, drive a car, speak english etc, He cannot be the President of the Planet directly. He will influence the Beast spiritually as defined clearly SATAN HANDS OVER POWER AND THRONE TO BEAST REVELATION 13:2-4
    Atkin quote.
    Satan cannot wear clothes and live amongst humans in human form.


    My answer.
    The name “Serpent” or “dragon,” “Satan,” “Devil,” are names given to “Lucifer,” “the angel of light,” “the angel of the morning.”

    By the way Satan can live as a human, he will be forced to.

    Isaiah 14:12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations.
    Isaiah 14:16. THEY that SEE THEE SHALL narrowly LOOK UPON THEE, and consider thee, saying, Is THIS THE MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms.

    The fourth beast is a political power made up of the preceding world powers/many nations. The lion with eagles wings, the bear, the leopard with the wings of a fowl. These become one fourth world power, which has the lion’s mouth, claws of the bear, leopards body, and has leaders, including the beast with the deadly wound that was healed...

    Revelation 13:2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
     
  13. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Rainbowpromise your last post was straight out of the Seventh Day Adventist church handbook’s teaching. I will take just one part of your quote which is against what the Bible says, in the following.

    Quote by Rainbowpromise.
    For Iraq, Iran, or any other nation to be a world ruling power it would have to overthrow the little horn.

    My answer.
    Nobody has said that Iraq or Iran would be a “world ruling power,” not even the Bible states that.
    What sayeth the Bible? He “became great.”

    Daniel 8:4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and BECAME GREAT.

    Now where do you get the strange logic that makes you say that “Iraq/Iran would have to overthrow the little horn?”
    The answer is that your church teaches that, "the little horn is the pope with the number 666." "The lion is the empire of Babylon." "The Medo/Persian empire is the bear power." "The leopard is Alexander the great." "The fourth beast is the Roman empire that changes into the Roman Catholic church, Little horn/pope."

    So you see the (bear), as the Iranians/Persians of the past, which are way up at the shoulders and therefore you see that power as being historically before the (fourth beast) Roman empire/church power at the legs/little horn pope.

    That is why you say that the Iranians and Iraqis (bear) can’t beat the (Romans/RCC) fourth power the beast most terrible.
    Because you mistakenly match up the four beasts at the feet with long gone past powers, you make the next statement based on that false teaching.

    Quote by Rainbowpromise.
    To do that would mean it is another, a 5th power on the rise. Again, that would make a liar out of Daniel whom Jesus calls a prophet.

    My answer.
    No it would not “make a liar out of Daniel.”
    What you are saying is agree with S D A teaching or we, that do not agree with you are calling Daniel a liar.
    That is outrageous. Just because you link the 4th beast that comes up at the feet, with a long lost fourth power at the shoulders and can’t see the light, then the fault is with the teaching you uphold.

    Now about the timing. ”The time of the end.”

    Rainbowpromise, you now have a real problem on your hands, the timing of the vision of Daniel.
    Because your church has taught you that “these creatures belong to the past.”
    You have to ignore Rev 22;18,19, and start changing words, even though Gabriel is quite clear on this matter regarding the time of the vision, being at the “time of the end.”.

    Dan 8:14.So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for AT THE TIME OF THE END SHALL BE THE VISION.

    “for AT the time of THE END shall be the vision.”
    So the vision of the ram and goat are AT the time of THE END.
    Gabriel says understand, comprehend, grasp, discern, conceive, know.
    AT the TIME of THE END SHALL be the VISION.”

    Back to your problem.
    Now please don’t tell me, that you can add the word “pertaining” to THE TIME OF END THE VISION. Then go into great detail using that word that you have added making it confusing to justify the first error.
    By saying the angel “did not mean the “time of the end” but leading up to it” when Gabriel meant exactly that! “The time of the end.” Is foolish.

    This is why we are told to read and heed the following.
    Rev 22: 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take AWAY from THE WORDS of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life.

    QUESTION
    Are you stating that the beasts are past empires?
    Show me where the Bible states that the four beasts that come up at the same time, at the feet are past empires, we are talking verse by verse and the exact intent of the Bible.

    Dan 2 takes us through the metal powers to the time of the end. The prophet does not spend a lot of time on the statue empires he gets to the feet and beasts really quickly.


    So what you are saying Rainbowpromise is the angel didn’t say “understand Daniel the vision concerns the time of the end?”
    So, what did he say?

    Gabriel did NOT say the following ?

    The lion shall rise at 608 BC?
    And die at 539 BC?

    The bear shall rise at 539 BC?
    And die 331 BC?

    The leopard shall rise at 331BC?
    And die in 146 BC?

    The 4th beast most terrible rise at 146 BC?
    And the die at 476 AD?
    Then change and linger on as the fourth power RCC.

    How can All these beasts die at the same time in REV 19: 19,20,21, if as you claim "they are past empires?"
    In order to make ourselves look good, because of pride, we bring down the Bible, the written word of God!
    What did the angel say?

    He said Daniel 8:17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, “Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.”
    How clear is that?
     
  14. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    The four beasts come up at the feet together. Just before The Lord sets up His kingdom.
    Did the angel say they would die like the metal empires at different times?
    Dan 7: 11..I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    12. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a SEASON AND TIME.

    So why did the beasts live for 15 months?
    That is as you claim the lion, Bear, leopard.

    Tell me Rainbowpromise, how can they be around at the SAME TIME if they are PAST EMPIRES?

    Rev 19: 20 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone. 21And THE REMNANT WERE SLAIN WITH THE SWORD of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    From Daniel's time to John's, who wrote the book of Revelation, some 600 hundred years later, when 3 metal empires had long since faded into history and Rome was the last empire left.

    Why would John prophesy about the beasts to come, in the future if they are supposed to be the past empires?

    How can the beasts be the same metal powers if they are to come up at the feet?

    We are in 2003 AD and the metal super powers are ALL gone and we are at the feet waiting. For the foursome to join together in a one world order.

    Same story of the historic empires from the head through to the beasts that rise at the same time at the feet. The metal time empire statue's head to the feet then on to eternity.
    The same story is repeated by Daniel from a different perspective each time, then an enlargement by the angels follows.

    FROM DAN 2: 1 TO 40.
    Babylon, GOLD.
    MEDO-PERSIA, SILVER.
    GREECE, BRONZE.
    ROME, IRON.
    WELL THAT LOOKS LIKE THOSE POWERS ARE NOW DEALT WITH.
    VERSE 41: 44 We get four more beasts come up.

    AT THE SAME TIME!
    At the time of these beasts God sets up His kingdom.

    Did God set up His kingdom during the past statue empire?

    Did we see a one world order lead by the false prophet and beast?
    Did we see them thrown into the burning fire?
    Did we see the abomination sitting on the mount in Jerusalem?
    Did we see the beast and false prophet leading those metal empires? Did we see the hand of God bring them to an end?

    No, what we and SDA's saw was Rome wither, pope Pious the eighth brought to heel by Bertier Under Napoleon in 1798AD and SDA"s mistakenly thinking that "the pope is the horn and also the beast," and that this was the wound being received, assume it was all in the past

    They claim that 538AD was when the RCC was at its greatest, and they take 1260 days from Daniel, change that to years and come up with 1798 and say to each other how wonderfully it all fits together.

    Jesus said when asked this question

    Matt24:3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the END OF THE WORLD?

    Matt 24:15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.)
    Daniel 11:31. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    A quick run through .
    It will only take a bit of Bible to do it.
    DANIEL 2:1 TO 40. DAN INTERPRETS DREAM. METAL POWERS DOWN TO FEET.
    This is the chronological time period of the metal empires.
    GOLD-BABYLON. Head.
    MEDO-PERSIA,SILVER, shoulders.
    GREECE-BRONZE, thighs.
    ROME. Iron legs.
    Now we are at the FEET OF IRON & CLAY.

    BIBLE.
    DANIEL 2: 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
    Daniel2:40. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
    The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.


    I will use my own words and if you wish check it out with your Bibles, please do so.

    Dan 7:4 lion, wings and heart plucked.
    V5, bear raised up one side, attacking posture.
    V6 leopard four wings of a bird, four heads, given authority.
    V7 The 4th beast most terible, ten horns, crushes, devours it’s victims.
    V8. Little horn comes up, gets rid of 3. Starts boasting.
    V 9 Court sits. V 11. The beast is thrown into fire.

    V12. The other beasts are allowed to live for 15 months.

    Angel’s interpretation.
    V15:17 four beasts are four kingdoms THAT WILL RISE FROM THE EARTH.
    (Babylonia is long gone into the past, so the lion, to come up at the feet, is not Babylon)
    V18. The saints receive their Kingdom.

    Now I would just like to go back to Verse 12. The other beasts are allowed to live for 15 months and compare this with Rev 19:19.

    Rev19:19. The beast, Kings & their armies are ready to fight Jesus & His army.
    V20. False prophet, little horn craft, miracle worker. Both thrown into fire. Craft is an old English word for witchcraft.
    V21 And the remnant were slain with the sword. The remnant are the MIXTURE OF PEOPLES under the Kings, the beast and dragon in Dan 2: 43. The people of the lion bear leopard are slain with the sword Armageddon!
    Note, the following verse 44 in Dan 2. The KINGDOM OF GOD IS SET UP..
    Rev 20: 2 Satan seized locked up.
    Rev 20 Verse 4. Some MEN are given AUTHORITY TO JUDGE, these are THEY THAT CAME THROUGH THE TRIBULATION that did not RECEIVE the MARK of the BEAST.
    1st Cor 6:3. “Don’t you know that WE WILL JUDGE ANGELS? And if that is so, we can surely judge everyday matters.”

    The Lion, bear, Leopard, The fourth beast are a “mixture of people,” in Dan 2: 42. all around at the same time, as THE LORD’S KINGDOM IS SET UP in Verse 44 of Dan 2 .

    Now you can’t get more chronological than that.
    Maranatha.

    Prophecy Countdown.
     
  15. Atkin

    Atkin Member

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    This theory is wrong, the theory that Satan is the second beast.

    The verse that confirms that SATAN IS SEPARATE and DIFFERENT from the second beast is

    Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:10 Satan is thrown into the lake of fire separately from the first and second beasts (2nd beast is false prophet)

    The false prophet is described in Revelation 19:20 The false prophet performed in the presence of the first beast signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and made them worship the image of the beast


    Thus the false prophet is the second beast and the false prophet's description

    fits exactly Revelation 13:13 The second beast performs great signs and deceived the inhabitants of the earth causing those who took the mark of the beast to worship the image of the second beast.

    The false prophet appears like a lamb (religion, appears like a priest (like Christ the sacrificial lamb) but speaks false teachings of Satan the dragon

    -- Christ is the lamb of God

    --- The second beast, a false preaching-religion lamblike source, is the lamb of Satan. thus described as speaking as the dragon Satan.

    The second beast which is the false prophet that makes fire come down from heaven in Revelation 13:12-13, IS NOT Satan since Satan is thrown separately into the lake of fire

    after the first and second beast are already thrown into that lake of fire Revelation 20:10
     
  16. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Atkin.
    This theory is wrong, the theory that Satan is the second beast.

    Over many years, I have found those with preconceived ideas, that accuse others of “theorising” are full of it themselves, especially when you compare them with what the Bible says.

    My answer. What sayeth the Bible. The “second beast.” Is the Dragon.

    Revelation 13:11. And I beheld ANOTHER BEAST coming up out of the earth; and HE HAD TWO HORNS like a lamb, and he spake as a DRAGON.

    Bible, Another beast (2) comes up after the first beast (1)in next verse.

    Revelation 13:12. And he exerciseth all the power OF THE FIRST BEAST BEFORE HIM, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST BEAST, whose DEADLY WOUND was healed.

    The first beast with the DEADLY WOUND is a fallen angel. “The SECOND BEAST” is Satan, Who looks like A lamb, speaks like a dragon.
    THAT MAKES TWO BEASTS ONLY!

    Who is the dragon?

    Compare, Rev 12:9. And the great DRAGON was cast out, that old serpent, CALLED THE DEVIL, and SATAN, which DECEIVETH THE WHOLE WORLD: he was cast out into the earth, and HIS ANGELS WERE CAST OUT WITH HIM.
    Who receives a bruised head?
    It is the first beast that has the wound in his head not the second beast Satan.
    Revelation 13:12. And he exerciseth all the power of the FIRST BEAST before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST BEAST, whose DEADLY WOUND was healed.

    Atkin quote.
    The verse that confirms that SATAN IS SEPARATE and DIFFERENT from the second beast is Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:10 Satan is thrown into the lake of fire separately from the first and second beasts (2nd beast is false prophet)



    My answer, The separate beasts come up in Rev 13:11,12 and are identified as such a lot sooner than in Rev 19:20 and Rev 20:10.
    .
    Revelation 13:11. And I beheld ANOTHER BEAST coming up out of the earth; and HE HAD TWO HORNS like a lamb, and he spake as a DRAGON.

    Revelation 13:12. And he exerciseth all the power OF THE FIRST BEAST BEFORE HIM, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST BEAST, whose DEADLY WOUND was healed.

    So, “another beast after the first makes it the second beast, basic maths one, then another, two.

    Who does the BIBLE SAY THE DRAGON IS?

    Rev 12:8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9And the great DRAGON was cast out, THAT OLD SERPENT, CALLED THE DEVIL, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world.
    How plain is that to understand?


    Atkin quote.
    Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:10 Satan is thrown into the lake of fire separately from the first and second beasts (2nd beast is false prophet)

    My answer.
    What sayeth the Bible Atkin?
    The Bible does not say the “false prophet is the second beast.” that is a construct.
    Nowhere in the Bible is that even suggested, please show me the verse, word for word?
    Rev 19:19. And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

    Daniel refers to one beast.

    Daniel 7:11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even TILL THE BEAST WAS SLAIN, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    The false prophet is just that, “the FALSE PROPHET.” No more no less and to say anything else is speculation and wishful thinking. The Bible says, “THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET” are captured, then thrown into the fire. Satan the second beast that came up will be thrown into the fire at the time of the second resurrection.

    Rev 19:20. Then THE BEAST was captured, AND with him THE FALSE PROPHET who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
    Just because the “false prophet performs miracles” as does Satan as we have seen, does NOT MAKE “the false prophet the second beast,” as you mistakenly suggest.
    The second beast, the one that speaks like a dragon comes up after the first beast with the deadly wound.

    Two are going to be cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. The FALSE PROPHET, and the FIRST BEAST.
    These two are separate entities performing miracles. There will be plenty of false christs, prophets and miracle workers at the time of the end.

    Matt 24:11. And MANY FALSE PROPHETS SHALL RISE, and shall deceive many.
    Matt 24:23. For there shall arise false Christs, and FALSE PROPHETS, and shall shew GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Conclusion. The Bible speaks of MANY false prophets doing great wonders and none are referred to as the first beast with the deadly wound or as the lamb that speaks like a dragon, who is Satan the second beast that comes up.

    Chapter 20
    The second beast to rise was Satan, who is taken by the angel Abaddon, and imprisoned in the pit for a thousand years.
     
  17. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    1.Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
    Check
    1. First beast with the deadly wound. comes up first within the leopard power. Rev 13:2.
    2. The second beast that looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon comes up after the first beast as the horn in the fourth beast. Daniel 7: 7, 8.
    3. Then there is the false prophet who performs miracles. Rev 19;20.
    4. The two thrown into the fire, are the first beast and false prophet. Rev 20:10.
    5. Then Satan thrown into the fire 1000 years later where the false prophet and false prophet are thrown earlier. Rev 20:10.

    What is so difficult to grasp about that?

    Atkin quote.
    The false prophet is described in Revelation 19:20 The false prophet performed in the presence of the first beast signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and made them worship the image of the beast
    Thus the false prophet is the second beast and the false prophet's description fits exactly Revelation 13:13 The second beast performs great signs and deceived the inhabitants of the earth causing those who took the mark of the beast to worship the image of the second beast.
    The false prophet appears like a lamb (religion, appears like a priest (like Christ the sacrificial lamb) but speaks false teachings of Satan the dragon


    My reply.
    Rev 19:20. Then the BEAST WAS CAPTURED, and with him THE FALSE PROPHET who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. THESE TWO were cast alive into the LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone.
    The false prophet is a separate entity performing miracles. There will be plenty of false prophets and christs along with miracle workers.

    The first beast is captured, that is the one that came up first with the deadly wound.
    The second beast that followed him was Satan, the Lamb that speaks like a dragon. The dragon is Satan. The false prophet is someone else.

    Matt 24:11. And MANY FALSE PROPHETS SHALL RISE, and shall deceive many.
    Matt 24:23. For there shall arise false Christs, and FALSE PROPHETS, and shall shew GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


    Atkin quote
    Christ is the lamb of God. --- The second beast, a false preaching-religion lamblike source, is the lamb of Satan. thus described as speaking as the dragon Satan.

    My answer,,, I see the second beast as the usurper, the false christ/lamb like impostor.
    The Bible, says that “the Lamb that speaks like a dragon.”

    Satan is the only angel called a dragon.

    It is Satan that masquerades as the Lamb of God, an angel of light.
    2 Corinthians 11:13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for SATAN HIMSELF IS TRANSFORMED INTO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    Satan says that he will be like the Most High.

    Isaiah 14:14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.

    Atkin quote.
    The second beast which is the false prophet that makes fire come down from heaven in Revelation 13:12-13, IS NOT Satan since Satan is thrown separately into the lake of fire after the first and second beast are already thrown into that lake of fire Revelation 20:10

    My answer.
    The Bible does not agree with you Atkin.

    The Bible makes it clear that the second beast looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon.
    It shouldn’t need an Einstein to figure it out.
    It is Satan. That comes up after the first beast, the first beast that comes up has the mortal wound.
    The first beast is thrown into the fire with the false prophet, Satan is thrown into the fire after the thousand years at the second resurrection period.

    Rev 20: 5. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    Rev 20:10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    As seen, the Bible does not say the second beast is the false prophet at all.

    Maranatha.
    P C.
     
  18. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    You have no idea about the FUNCTIONS OF THE FALSE PROPHET
    -HE USES MIRACLES TO DECEIVE THOSE WITH THE MARK OF THE BEAST
    TO WORSHIP THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST-- REV 13:15-16 EXACT MATCH WITH REVELATION 19:20
    If a human speaks like Satan, does that make that human Satan?. The Bible does not support your view of the second beast.

    Who gives power to the first beast? Satan the dragon.

    Does it make sense to you that the same Satan the dragon

    would then be the SUBSERVIENT second Beast who exercises THE SATAN GIVEN POWER OF THE FIRST BEAST on behalf of the first Beast.?

    No way.
    SATAN MAKES UP THE ENTIRE POWER SOURCE FOR BOTH BEASTS.

    Secondly the false prophet PERFORMS THE ACTUAL FUNCTIONS OF THE SECOND BEAST, SO ON WHAT GROUNDS do you dispute the truth below
    ----------
    Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those MIRACLES which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth,
    and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    FALSE PROPHET - Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought MIRACLES before him, with which he deceived them that had received the MARK OF THE BEAST of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.

    ----
    FIRE FROM HEAVEN IS EASY FOR THE FALSE prophet powered by Satan

    This is the power structure

    1- SATAN GIVES POWER TO BEAST 1 AND 2

    2- BEAST 1 takes power from Satan the dragon
    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast,

    3 - Beast 2 is allowed by Beast 1 to exercise the power Satan gives Beast 1 on the very behalf of Beast 1

    REVELATION 13: 12 And he [BEAST 2 , NOT SATAN ]exerciseth all the power of the first beast [THE POWER IS FROM SATAN REV 13:4]before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, ...

    Satan is at the top of the structure


    SATAN THE DRAGON GIVES POWER TO THE FIRST BEAST REV 13:4

    THE FIRST BEAST ALLOWS THE SECOND BEAST TO EXERCISE THE POWER THE FIRST BEAST GOT FROM SATAN BACK IN REV 13:4

    It is absurd to see Satan GIVING POWER TO THE FIRST BEAST, and

    coming in as the second beast again to exercise His own power, given already to the first Beast. SATAN IS THE SOURCE OF THAT VERY POWER THAT BEAST 2 GETS FROM BEAST 1.

    THE DRAGON ENCOMPASSES ALL BEASTS-- completely for Satan gives power to both the first beast WHO ALLOWS THE SECOND BEAST to exercise the power on its (beast 1) behalf.


    Your scriptures must be consistent.

    The second Beast SPEAKS LIKE SATAN, pretty obvious that speaking like Satan does NOT NECESSARILY make it Satan.

    There are many false prophets and false teachers BUT WHY WOULD ONLY ONE FALSE PROPHET BE PLACED ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THE FIRST BEAST AND THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE IN REV 19:20?
     
  19. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
    Christian
    Married
    The United States and Britain also gave power to the beast - Islam - by financing the oil wells and making them rich again. Israel is surrounded by the leopard- bear-lion beast that recovered from a mortal wound given it at the battle of Tours and the Gates of Vienna when Martel knights delt the Islamic empire a crushing defeat before it took over the entire civilized world in that time. Well, they are back.......and with money and soon a nuclear missle capability. The beast that looks like a lamb and calls itself by Christ's name, but spews out pornography and materialism has financed and made rich those that hate the two witnesses to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob more than any other empire. The empire of Islam, which now surrounds Israel.
     
  20. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian

    Did the Islamic empire have a tight grip over dominions as Imperial Rome, or

    Papal Rome? They must have had conflicts with Papal Rome during their growth.

    The leopard-bear-lion beast would involve some other powers with Islamic nations.

    In fact, a number of end time interpretations do not have Islamic nations as part of that Beast.

    Of course the ten horns of the Beast Revelation 13: 1 are speculated by many as European group of nations etc. Taking a look at the military behaviour of most of the major continental European nations, one would be hard pressed to see another Adolf Hitler type swarming across europe and the middle east..... most of those nations are dead tired of wars.

    A interesting interpretation actually describes the beast as the world powers from

    the post 17th century times till recent times. Revelation 13 describes a Beast whose life runs over a few centuries.

    THE BRITISH EMPIRE would have to be some form of a beast considering its range of control spanning all the continents at some point.

    THE USA obtained independence from the British empire in late 18th century and grew up to become MORE POWERFUL THAT Britain by mid 20th century

    RUSSIA WAS ALSO gaining dominions in eastern europe and even in Africa

    Once Germany was defeated, AMERICA AND THE SOVIET UNION then became the main global superpowers

    and surely THIS DRAMATIC ARMS RACE, NUCLEAR ARMAGEDDON threat of Kennedy-Kruschev, THE STAR WARS, ARMS RACE, AND MAD SPACE RACE must be part of God's prophecy.

    HOWEVER, WE SEE THAT SOVIET UNION has fallen apart, Russia has become less powerful, Britain is now supported by the USA hence the Beast could be would be more defined by the 10 horns REVELATION 17:12-13.
     
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