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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Celticroots, Jul 21, 2017.

  1. alhaynes86

    alhaynes86 Member

    United States
    im going to give something here that i REALLLLLLLY want everyone here to read over.. i think that it covers ALL these topics.. and even the entire question here.. totally open to hearing what people have to say about this...

    Romans 7:18- 8:16
    For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
    For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
    Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation--but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children....
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  2. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

    United States
    And...you're saying God takes our free will from us after we die? Before we die we must have free will or else there is no justice, we would be robots, love would be meaningless, etc., but after we die, we won't change (which can only mean we have no free will)...but that's okay, because Heaven needs to be full of robots with no free will? If we could change after we die, then we would all eventually wind up in Hell. From where I stand it looks like you've painted yourself into a corner, unless you've also had the luck of wallpapering over a door, by which you can tear a way out of it.

    For the record, I think free will is only free from our point of view.
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Most (and possibly not all) Eternal Security proponents only believe in a half gospel or a milk type only gospel (i.e. The gospel's initial portion that tells them to believe in His death and resurrection - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is the milk of the Word that the Corinthians could only accept. It was the only message they could bear because they were still yet carnal (See 1 Corinthians 3:2-3). It's why Paul said he came not to know anything among the Corinthians accept Jesus and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) because they would not be able to bear the second half of the message of the gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word).

    The majority of Eternal Security proponents do not believe in the Bible's full or complete gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word). The second half or truth of the gospel is that Christ died so as to redeem us from all iniquity and so as to live holy and be zealous of good works.

    Hebrews 5:9
    "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, NKJV

    Ephesians 5:25-27
    25 “even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

    Titus 2:14
    “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

    Romans 1:16-17 says,
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
    17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." NKJV

    What is this faith look like?

    James 2:17
    “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

    James 2:24
    “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

    James 2:18
    “shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

    Hebrews 9:14
    “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

    Titus 3:8
    “This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.”

    1 Peter 4:1-2
    1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
    2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God

    Colossians 1:21-23
    21 “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.”

    Colossians 2:6-7
    6 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
    7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving."

    1 John 1:7
    “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

    You yourself say that a saving faith is identified by works; But then you contradict yourself and say that you are not saved by works. It is either one or the other.

    The solution: We are saved by God's works both on believing in His death and resurrection for our salvation (i.e. Justification), and we are also saved by God's works done through us (i.e. the Sanctification process). For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it's why the 24 elders had cast down their crowns before Jesus. So no believer can truly pat themselves on the back and look in the mirror and scream, "Hey everybody! Come and see how good I look!" But neither is Jesus's grace a license to turn God's grace into a license for immorality by telling others that they are saved without any works. Because the moment you say that and do not say anything more, then people are going to think they can sin and still be saved (Which is wrong). Because if we were truly not saved by works, then we should not be able to out sin grace. But then the Eternal Security proponent will say that the true believer is changed and will not act like that. Really? I do not remember the last time God's will was over riding any believer at any point in history. Either God completely over rides a believer's will and makes that person His mindless puppet doing God's will 100% or God is leaving man to choose God of His own free will. Granted, that does not mean I do not believe a believer is not born again spiritually and that he has a new heart with new desires, but this also does not eliminate man's free will, either. Man can still choose between the good or the evil. So choose this day in whom you will serve.

    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is talking as a Pharisee before he became a Christian (Recounting his experience in trying to obey the Law of Moses under the false pharisee religion). In Romans 7:14 he says he is carnal and sold under sin, and yet in Romans 8:2, Paul says he is free from sin. So either Paul is speaking from two different perspectives here or there is a contradiction in Scripture.

  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    Yes, simple and true.... the disciples exclaimed to Jesus at times "HOW then , how can WE (your very disciples with you) be saved !?"

    Because they saw clearly the futility of trying to do what Jesus says to do, they saw clearly they could not do what Jesus said to do - yet Jesus told them directly not only that, but that they MUST BE PERFECT(yes, perfect, but realize people don't understand what perfect is, any more than they understand what faith is, or love either).
    So, anyway, what did Jesus tell the disciples at times when they did not know how to be saved, when they did not know themselves how to do what He said ?

    hint: He did not say, ".... chill, just sit down and let me do it ...."

    nor ".... don't worry, you don't have to do anything - I'll save you .... "

    nor "... just stay like you are, in sin, until I rapture you .... "

    nor ".... just stay like you are , in sin, until you die or I return .... "

    See how important it is to read the BIBLE. MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE and JOHN especially...
    because the disciples had similar troubles as everyone today,

    and Jesus told them clearly what to do.
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    What does God's Word Say ?
    I agree with Him.
  7. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

    ...or God's presence in the true Believer's life is then so convicting that s/he will quickly grow repulsed at the very thought of sinning against God, leading into habitual corrwctions, which could be seen as a middle ground between both extremes mentioned above, and something I can attest to in my own walk.
  8. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

    The term for knowledge is 'epignosis' - which is a relational, true knowledge which only Christians have with Christ. (John 16:13, II Pet 1:3, II Pet 1:8, Col 3:10, Col 1:10, Col 2:2, etc.) Scripture treats the true knowledge (epignosis) that only Christians have of Christ as very distinct from mere 'head knowledge' (gnosis) about the way of salvation.

    In Heb 10:26, he specifically warns these Christians of the dangers of returning to a willful state of sin after having received personal/exact knowledge of the truth.

    What does the Hebrews 10:26 mean concerning 'willful sin?'
  9. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

    In II Pet 2:20-22, these men had escaped the defilements of the world "through the true knowledge" of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Epignosis, true knowledge, is only something Christians can have with Christ - for it is an exact knowledge that comes via relationship, not mere head knowledge.
    (John 16:13, II Pet 1:3, II Pet 1:8, Col 3:10, Col 1:10, Col 2:2, etc.)

    If deliverance from the world via a relationship with Christ is not 'Christian' - what is?

    Yet after this escape, they were again entangled with the world and overcome. This shows they did not have an abiding faith or relationship with Christ, merely a temporary one, for if they had continued in faith they would have overcome the world.

    After this return, their final state became *worse* than their first state as a worldly unbeliever! If they never stopped being an unbeliever, how could being an unbeliever be worse? Is slavery to sin and condemnation to hell worse than slavery to sin and condemnation to hell? That makes little sense.

    II Pet 2:21 explains why it is worse. It is worse because they had true knowledge (epignosis, again) of the way of salvation - not mere head knowledge, but experiential knowledge. They then returned, departing from it. They didn't just get close but turn away before arriving, but had experience of salvation (which can only come through faith in Christ) and then turned back from that place. It would have been better for them to have never had true knowledge of the way of righteousness to begin with.

    That the proverb uses dogs and pigs and not sheep is irrelevant. Analogies and parables use different figures in scripture as they each make specific points. Sometimes different figures are used for the same thing (lost sheep, lost coin, etc.) and sometimes the same figure is used in various passages to refer to different things (leaven, fig trees, etc.) or call out different aspects of that figure.

    In II Pet 2:20, the reason pigs and dogs are used is because the figure of a sow cleaning/washing then returning to the mud, or a dog returning to its own vomit, represents well the person who finds something good but then returns to his former state. It's also a reference back to Prov 26:1.
  10. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

    There is nothing in the concept of the seal that mandates that -humans- uphold their end of the contract. (Although God certainly has the right to judge us if we do!)

    This seal is the Greek term sphragízō, which means literally to seal or affix, such as with a signet ring or other stamping instrument, and figuratively to attest ownership and authorize/validate what is sealed.

    Sealing is a legal term which can show a number of important things:

    #1 - Ownership
    #2 - A guarantee of security by the owner against outside tampering
    #3 - A guarantee of the sealed promises or terms to be fulfilled in the future
    #4 - A locking away of a document until later revelation/fulfillment (such as a will, to be read only after death, or a sealed prophecy)
    #5 - Certified agreement

    Context will generally supply which of these is meant. For example, in Jn 3:33, "Whoever has accepted it has set his seal to this, (certified) that God is truthful," only the last legal sense of certified agreement is meant.

    When it comes to the seal of the Holy Spirit, however, other scripture shows that it is the first three legal concepts which are highlighted, with an implication of the fourth in Rom 8:19 and I Pet 1:4.
    What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?

    As for the term arrabon, an earnest payment (like a down payment or engagement ring) doesn't mean the other person is 'forced' to carry through. Rather, it is your own promise to carry through. Is a women who agrees to marry and takes the ring bound to walk down the altar? No! But if she breaks her promise, she must return the ring. If he broke His promise, she would get to keep the ring. Likewise, the buyer can't take back the down payment if they backed out of a deal. However, if the seller backed out (say they died, and their children decided not to sell) - they would have to return the down payment.

    Neither of those ministries of the Holy Spirit contradicts the numerous passages that show people partaking of the Spirit then falling away, making shipwreck of their faith, falling away from the faith, escaping the world through a relationship with Christ but then returning to slavery to sin, etc.
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    Amein, HalleluYAH !

    Free will is a perfect gift, rarely understood.

    YHWH'S CONTRACT with men/ mankind/ believers

    IN NO WAY (in YHWH'S CONTRACT) takes away man's free will

    so even up to the point of death, a man himself may by his free will break the CONTRACT (only for himself, not for others) , and leave YHWH, never being able to return to Him ever again.

    Once someone is SAVED, in CONTRACT with YHWH, no one and nothing else may break that CONTRACT, but only that person themself is FREE TO GET OUT OF IT,

    as YHWH will not MAKE anyone STAY .
  12. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

    Obedience comes before salvation for God will not save the disobedient.
    Romans 10:16 Paul speaks of obedience unto righteousness. No such thing as one obeying because he already is righteous.

    John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."
    1 Peter 2:7 "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,"

    In both above verses, belief is set in contrast to disobeying, therefore believing is obeying. Therefore one must first obey by believing before one can be saved.

    Romans 6:17-18, the order of events as Paul puts them:
    1) servants of unrighteousness
    2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
    3) then freed from sin/justified

    Paul puts obedience BEFORE justification.

    Salvation can be lost for God did not extend cheap grace to man where the Christian can commit sin impenitently and still be saved.
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    While it is God's intention to convict a believer and get them to feel repulsed by sin (for I even know this in my own life), there is no forced guarantee of salvation upon the believer that they are saved no matter what they do. We learn even in 1 Timothy 5 that there are believing widows who have turned aside after Satan.

    "For some are already turned aside after Satan." (1 Timothy 5:15).​

    Now, lets understand something here. You cannot turn aside after Satan if you are already in his grip. One can only turn aside after Satan if they are free from his grip and they then turn aside and go back to him. Verse 6 says of the believing widow who lives in pleasure is dead spiritually while she physically lives.

    "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." (1 Timothy 5:6).​

    Then there is Matthew 7. When you read Matthew 7, you will not see a Once Saved Always Saved view that says you can sin and still be saved on some level. The whole chapter is based on fruits and deeds as a part of being right with the Lord. Yes, there are some who do wonderful works, but they also work sin and iniquity, too. Those who sin and or who preach a doctrine that promotes sin will not make it. I know. You believe a true believer will live holy in this life. I get that is part of the package deal of the teaching of Eternal Security. But the other message is what is destructive and rotten and does not jive. The other message of Eternal Security says you can sin and still be saved on some level because works or sin cannot separate you from God. This is the under lying rotten foundation upon which Eternal Security rests. Any other ideas or concepts to say that one will live holy is just a mirage because one can violate basic morality or God's good ways and still be saved. In other words, Eternal Security preaches TWO messages that conflicts with each other. The immoral message makes the holy message impure and untrue. For we are not forced against our will to accept the Lord and His good ways. Yes, God can make a change within us to seek His good ways, but then it is up to us (according to our free will) to choose if we still desire to want Him in our life or not. Choosing Christ is not a one time decision, but it is an every day decision you make every single day for the rest of your life.

    Side Note:

    Oh, and please take no offense my friend; but I just wanted to let you know I disagree with your avatar. Jesus is not a white European. Jesus was an Israelite; And Israelites generally were mid tone in skin color and had different facial features than us white folk.

    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  14. AKAP

    AKAP New Member

    United States
    There are a couple of areas you have uncovered in your introduction to this topic that I want to address if you don't mind, and they do not alter your overall question of the truth about your salvation, and others.
    1. Scripture does not exactly say 'we go the heaven.' Or when we die we go to heaven. It is a trendy phrase that has stuck over the years. I believe it may have come from the Gnostics. I am not 100% although I'm led to believe that we are not going to exactly the location where God resides. Let me elaborate:
    Luke 23:43: Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise. He died and stayed in the 'pleasant garden' place in Hades/Sheol.
    John 14:2-3 Jesus says in my Father's house are many mansions. This is not necessarily an indication of heaven where God resides.
    1 Thess 4:16 and 2 Thess 1 says that Jesus is actually coming from heaven to us, and not the reverse. We will be with the Lord in the 1st heaven (this earth's atmosphere - I guess upper atmosphere)
    Even Acts 2:34 when queried where David is and that he was not yet in the heavens. Now I don't know the exact source of this translated word 'heavens.' It do not seem to indicate the exact residence of God in Heaven.
    Now we are told in Luke 14:14 that we will be paid back because our belief by being resurrected from death. So we are sure we we gain immortality with a new everlasting body off this earth. As Daniel 12 :2-3 says, we will shine like the brightness of the heavens. Where then will we reside? In Rev 21:2 we are told we are going to live in the new Jerusalem that came out of heaven. So in summary we are to live In the heavens - the 2nd heaven? We will live in the New Jerusalem above the earth in space. Will move then in the galaxies and such and monitor the earth dwellers? There is nothing in scripture to contradict this scene or claim. Off to my next observation..
    2. Unfortunately I just cannot find any scripture (more that 10 less than 35 years of serious study, on and off, mostly on) to back up the claim that Jesus was God in the flesh. It is a Trinitarian theory. of the 4th century. It is a wonder it is still preached today. There are many scriptures to say that he was the son of man, Jesus Christ the son of the living God as Peter said to Jesus in response to the query," who do you say I am?". Jesus was a 100% man that gained immortality as we will some day. After his death he became the firstfruits.

    The truth about salvation...
    I wrote before and I will say it again, know for sure that you have assurance of salvation. Do not trust your heart or emotions. Trust the word of God. I recommend testing your spiritual health for salvation today. This tests whether you have the spirit of Truth within you. If you have true salvation you have the spirit within you and then you are sealed permanently. So the expression 'once saved always saved is true' if the spirit dwells in you. Take this test and see..you will know with assurance. Do it when you have doubts. Remember we have hope in salvation as we walk in righteousness daily having the spirit within us, grow us into a new and mature creature.
    2 Corin 13:3; I John Chapters 1 and 2, and Galatians 5:22-23.

    In Christ, always
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    There is no Once Saved Always Saved even if one has come to think they have assurance of it. For the Scriptures in many places teach that a believer can fall away from the faith.

    Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

    Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

    Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

    And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
    • Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
    • Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
    • The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
      (James 5:19, 20)

    For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

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  16. AKAP

    AKAP New Member

    United States
    Jason...to cover your lengthy explanation in one sentence...those that fell from grace or 'lost' their salvation, I say they were never sealed or had the spirit of truth in the first place. There is scripture to show this. If want I can provide them. Maybe you missed this very critical point.

    Bless you
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Not true at all.

    What is the condition of having the seal of God?

    Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

    "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

    In fact, what is a guarantee?

    Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

    1 Samuel 16:14
    But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

    Psalms 5:11
    Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

    Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

    Romans 4:11
    And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

    This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

    Romans 2:25-27
    25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

    As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

    Acts 5:32
    And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    John 14:15-16
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

    Romans 8:9-10
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

    Isaiah 63:10
    But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

    Isaiah 63:14
    As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

    In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).

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  18. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

    He showed many scriptures that explicitly refute that opinion.

    "See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." Hebrews 3:12-14

    The author is warning brothers and sisters in Christ to hold fast their conviction (faith) until the end, lest they *turn away* from God in unbelief. He isn't saying that if they don't believe, they never believed to begin with.

    Hebrews 4:11 "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God...Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience."

    Who should make the effort to enter that rest? The people of God. Who risk perishing by following the example of disobedience (unbelief)? People of God.

    Hebrews 6:4-9 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have been made partakers in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

    This passage explicitly says that these former believers had been "made partakers" of the Holy Spirit. How then did they not have the spirit of truth?
    Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?

    They had seen the light (II Cor 4:6). [Seen the light of God's revelation, understanding the hope to which we are called, such as Eph 1:17-19 ] They have ate of the heavenly gift (John 6:33) [experienced the grace of God, such as I Pet 2:1-3 ], they have shared in the Holy Spirit (I Cor 12:13, II Peter 1:4, Eph 3:6, Heb 3:14, Col 1:12, Phil 1:7, Eph 4:4, etc) ["partakers of the Holy Ghost" Literally, those who have shared in and been active partakers with the Holy Spirit, such as Heb 3:1], who have tasted the goodness of the word of God (Psalm 38:4) ["have tasted the good word of God" - have tasted of the bread of life, such as Luke 14:24, John 6:32-34 ] and shared in spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:4) ["tasted the powers of the age to come" = given gifts by the holy spirit (I Cor 12:9-11, Heb 2:4) ], and had repented (Acts 2:38).

    Then they fell away. (No 'if' or conditional in the Greek, despite the KJV mistranslation)
    What exactly does "fall away" mean in Heb 6:6?

    Hebrews 10:26-30 - This is speaking of returning to a state of willful sin (slavery to sin, basically) -after- one has received the exact knowledge of the truth. Only Christians can have epignosis, relational/experiential knowledge, of Christ.
    What does the Hebrews 10:26 mean concerning 'willful sin?'

    1 Timothy 1:18-20 "Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme."

    Here we have two very specific examples of two men who did not 'hold onto faith' and so 'suffered shipwreck (utter ruin)' in regard to the faith.

    1 Timothy 4:1-7: "The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons...."

    The Greek is in no-wise ambiguous that they are departing the faith itself, not merely the fellowship of believers or a profession of faith, and the Spirit is explicitly/expressly stating that such a thing can and will occur.
    What does it mean in 1 Tim 4:1 that 'some will depart from faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits?'

    2 Peter 2:20-22 - These men had escaped the corruption of the world through the true knowledge of Christ. Epignosis (true knowledge) is relational and experiential - only Christians can have this with Christ (II Pet 1:3-11

    I could go on, but out of time for now. Suffice to say that many of the passages he gave are indeed very explicit that Christians can later cease to believe, and that some with true knowledge (epignosis, which only Christians can have) later fall away back to the world. And since believers have the Spirit of truth and are sealed by the Spirit, it can't be claimed that they did not.
    The seal of the Holy Spirit doesn't force people to continue to believe, as the seal of the Holy Spirit is about God's promises, not our own faithfulness, after all.
    What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?
  19. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

    United States
    Christ answers this for us --

    1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

    9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17This is my command: Love each other."
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  20. Servantleader

    Servantleader New Member

    United States
    I think the first thing to do is ask ourselves the teller of the truth we seek. Do we believe our belief system to be the truth? our spiritual mentor? our pastor? our christian friends? the church? or even our parents? Who is the teller of truth?

    I believe this is critical because it puts us in a position to question our faith and why it is solid enough to stand upon when everything else may oppose what we believe. I think too often, many Christians trade in their own personal spiritual growth and understanding for what appears to be common. This is why it is vital for each person to work out their own salvation in the sense that they feed themselves by ingesting the Word of God in Scripture. Even when questions come up as we read the bible, I trust in the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God to give us wisdom on matters that remain complex to us.

    I do not believe you can lose your salvation. I think it is a lie from the enemy that many of us too easily absorb as a possibility. As stated in Romans 8:35-39, nothing can keep us away from the love of God. Salvation through Christ Jesus is God's greatest declaration of love so nothing can take that away from us. And because we do not know what it is like in eternity since we are living in human body and realm, it is possible to live life believing that salvation can be taken from you. I believe the acceptance of this cause a lot of Christian to act righteous and try to follow every biblical command to keep salvation, forgetting that it cannot be earned. Salvation is grace, a grace everlasting that is in the promise of a good God.

    Perhaps that is the beginning of the truth that many Christians still wrestle to believe and trust. Grace covers every sin that was and is to come. It is in receiving this grace that we begin to transform into a new creation.