Truth

[CodyFaith]

Rating my post a passive aggressive "prayers" does nothing but show the levels you are willing to stoop to.

 

[CodyFaith]

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[friend of]

I'm curious as to what people make of 1 Corinthians 5:4-5

My interpretation of this is, the brother whom Paul is referencing is saved (sealed) with the Holy Spirit (unwavering belief in Christ's sacrifice) yet continues in a sinful lifestyle.

Paul implores: "[5]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Who's spirit? The spirit of the fornicating brother Paul is referencing. Has this man, by his rebellious actions against Christ's commands, lost his salvation in Christ? Does God change His mind and revoke His Justification of the believer?

Just trying to understand,

Peace

 

[Soyeong]

I am not a new Christian but have some questions. The Gospel as I understand it is: God wants a relationship with us and for us to enter Heaven. But we are sinful and God does not let sin enter Heaven. Luckily God provides us a way out-His son Jesus. Jesus was God in flesh who took the penalty of our sin by his death/ resurrection.

To be saved you must believe Jesus's sacrifice as the only payment for your sins; you can't save yourself. Obedience will not save but obedience naturally comes after being saved. After being regenerated we obey God's commands because we have been saved.

Some believe you can lose your salvation. If that's the case then why did Christ endure one of the worst deaths imaginable? Or that we can stop sinning in this life. I believe we still sin but our attitude towards sin should change and we should start to sin less.

On here I've seen arguments regarding salvation and other things go on for pages. Everyone sure their position is the correct one.



Then how can anyone find out the truth? How can we find out through the word? As a Christian I want to know.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel message also involved repentance and bringing the Gentiles to full obedience in word and in deed, so the Gospel message is just as much about getting us into heaven as it is about getting heaven into us.

Debts can't simply be wiped clean, but rather they must be paid. For example, if a friend owed money that they couldn't pay and you decided to help them out, then to cancel their debt you would have to pay their debt for them in their place. The same principle holds true if your friend were to owe you money, where the only way to cancel their debt would be to pay their for them in their place. The wages of sin is death and we owe our lives, so in order for God to forgive our debt, He need would need to die in our place, which is why it was necessary for Jesus to die to pay the penalty for our sin in our place.

According to Titus 2:11-14, Jesus gave himself both to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. So our salvation from sin involves both being redeemed from the penalty of our sins and being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful. So our salvation necessarily involves being trained to stop sinning, but that is not something that happens in this life, but rather He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

According to 2 Peter 2:21, it would be better for people to never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them, which I think clearly indicates that we can lose our salvation. However, this is not talking about someone who is not doing a good enough job of obeying God's commands, but about someone who is turning their back on God and is no longer practicing repentance. Obedience to God has never been about being good enough for something, but about having faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live, about showing our love for God, and about thereby growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love.

I've been wrong about many things in the past and I very likely will be wrong about many things in the future, so the chances are pretty good that there I things that I currently hold to be true that are actually false, I just don't know which things those are. The only way to find out which things that I am wrong about is to interact with people who disagree with me and to do my best to evaluate their arguments for their position to see if what they say has any merit. So I see learning as the process of taking in new true and false information, reinforcing beliefs that we thought were true, and rejecting beliefs that we wrongly thought to be true. The problem comes when we wrongly reinforce a false belief or reject a true belief, but that is the risk inherent to learning. People have differing opinions about everything under the sun, so we must do our best to evaluate which ones have merit, and act accordingly.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

I'm really worried that I have done it. I'm really worried that I cannot come back

If you have faith, then you haven't fallen away. Falling away (defection from Christ) and deliberately, willfully returning the state of sin (not struggling or repeating a specific sin) are what Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:26, and other related passages are about.
What does the Hebrews 10:26 mean concerning 'willful sin?'

Struggling with a sin, repeating a sin, drifting away, having doubts - none of those are rejecting faith or returning to slavery to sin.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

I'm curious as to what people make of 1 Corinthians 5:4-5

My interpretation of this is, the brother whom Paul is referencing is saved (sealed) with the Holy Spirit (unwavering belief in Christ's sacrifice) yet continues in a sinful lifestyle.

Paul implores: "[5]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Who's spirit? The spirit of the fornicating brother Paul is referencing. Has this man, by his rebellious actions against Christ's commands, lost his salvation in Christ? Does God change His mind and revoke His Justification of the believer?

Just trying to understand,

Peace

I Cor 5:4-5 isn't generally taken by any group to refer to someone who lost his salvation. He was caught up in a sin, yes, but that's not the same thing. Paul asked that he be tossed out of the church, but this discipline was *for the purpose* that his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If he had already lost his salvation, then why would Paul hope for such a thing? However, if there was not a risk of the loss of salvation, why would Paul be worried about the man's spirit at all?

Many biblical commentators take the man of II Cor 2:5-8 to see the same believer, only now repentant and seeking back into fellowship.

"If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him." II Cor 2:5-8

The passage isn't directly related to the topic of preservation of the saints or eternal security. Loss of salvation doesn't come by being caught up in a sin nor by being kicked out of the church for a time. It's caused by the cessation of belief; the rejection of Christ, and hence the rejection of the salvation believers hold. (Heb 6:4-6, I Tim 1:9, I Tim 4:1, etc.)

 

[LostChildinTheMidst]

I Cor 5:4-5 isn't generally taken by any group to refer to someone who lost his salvation. He was caught up in a sin, yes, but that's not the same thing. Paul asked that he be tossed out of the church, but this discipline was *for the purpose* that his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If he had already lost his salvation, then why would Paul hope for such a thing? However, if there was not a risk of the loss of salvation, why would Paul be worried about the man's spirit at all?

Many biblical commentators take the man of II Cor 2:5-8 to see the same believer, only now repentant and seeking back into fellowship.

"If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him." II Cor 2:5-8

The passage isn't directly related to the topic of preservation of the saints or eternal security. Loss of salvation doesn't come by being caught up in a sin nor by being kicked out of the church for a time. It's caused by the cessation of belief; the rejection of Christ, and hence the rejection of the salvation believers hold. (Heb 6:4-6, I Tim 1:9, I Tim 4:1, etc.)

Hi, is there anyway I could message you because I myself am struggling with unbelief. I don't want to be an unbeliever I want to beleive it I can't conquer these doubts and I stand guilty infront of the lord because I used to beleive in him but now I'm afraid he's mad at me because I stopped beleiving. I have no control over this! I wish I could beleive! But my mind is blinded!!

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Hi, is there anyway I could message you because I myself am struggling with unbelief. I don't want to be an unbeliever I want to beleive it I can't conquer these doubts and I stand guilty infront of the lord because I used to beleive in him but now I'm afraid he's mad at me because I stopped beleiving. I have no control over this! I wish I could beleive! But my mind is blinded!!

I think you can message with the little quote icon under someone's post?

Perhaps you might find the prayer of Mark 9:24 useful: “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

Many Christians struggle with doubts at times. Doubt is one of the more frequent attacks from the world. Arguments that seem based in science, popular culture, or history are thrown at Christians like flaming darts.

How can I stop doubting Jesus?
What does the Bible say about doubt?
If you doubt your salvation, does that mean you are not truly saved?
How can I overcome doubt in my relationship with God?

 

[LostChildinTheMidst]

I think you can message with the little quote icon under someone's post?

Perhaps you might find the prayer of Mark 9:24 useful: “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

Many Christians struggle with doubts at times. Doubt is one of the more frequent attacks from the world. Arguments that seem based in science, popular culture, or history are thrown at Christians like flaming darts.

How can I stop doubting Jesus?
What does the Bible say about doubt?
If you doubt your salvation, does that mean you are not truly saved?
How can I overcome doubt in my relationship with God?

Idk how to message you

 

[fhansen]

Some believe you can lose your salvation. If that's the case then why did Christ endure one of the worst deaths imaginable?

But by that logic, that Christ's awful act of self-sacrifice should guarantee the salvation of those who've once considered themselves to be saved, regardless of their behavior later, then why would His death not be sufficient to save all to begin with?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

The big lie is once saved, always saved. For example if I tomorrow decided to go on a spree killing men, women and children then killed myself, I'd go to heaven right? There is no counter argument to that logic because "once saved, always saved" says you cannot lose salvation.

The only other response people is "Well if you did that then you were not saved to begin with!". But how can that be? You said you can't lose salvation. So once it is taken then I can't lose it just because I became a mass murdered then.

This is why I believe salvation is lose able. Hitler for example despite being a "christian" (well catholic) didn't see heaven. However... if he repented before he killed himself and TRULY meant it, he would get into heaven. Which tends to blow peoples minds. And admittedly it is scary to think he could eventer heaven if he really was repenting in the end. Though I do believe suicide sends you to hell no matter if you are saved or not.

Now before anyone says "But he was raised catholic, not actually catholic!". Well how do you know that? We don't.

 

[agapebondservant]

I am not a new Christian but have some questions. The Gospel as I understand it is: God wants a relationship with us and for us to enter Heaven. But we are sinful and God does not let sin enter Heaven. Luckily God provides us a way out-His son Jesus. Jesus was God in flesh who took the penalty of our sin by his death/ resurrection.

To be saved you must believe Jesus's sacrifice as the only payment for your sins; you can't save yourself. Obedience will not save but obedience naturally comes after being saved. After being regenerated we obey God's commands because we have been saved.

Some believe you can lose your salvation. If that's the case then why did Christ endure one of the worst deaths imaginable? Or that we can stop sinning in this life. I believe we still sin but our attitude towards sin should change and we should start to sin less.

On here I've seen arguments regarding salvation and other things go on for pages. Everyone sure their position is the correct one.



Then how can anyone find out the truth? How can we find out through the word? As a Christian I want to know.

Hi! Enjoyed your thoughtful and provocative question. I had similar questions a number of years ago and a friend handed me this booklet which I found very helpful. I do not pretend to have all the answers to this deep subject but I can say for sure the study I am passing on to you is at the least very interesting and out of left field from the usual chatter. God Bless.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

The truth is my posture is quite poor right now, leaning over this laptop.

 

[Danthemailman]

Ephesians 4:30 - sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption
Ephesians 1:13 - sealed

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

<1,728 arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

 

[Danthemailman]

You can not just lump Scriptures together to back any belief and IGNORE OTHERS that say different. All Scripture works together
Explain Hebrews 6:4-6
4For it isimpossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

Blessings
FCJ

I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the words "lost salvation." In regards to once enlightened, the word enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Ghost, - metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" etc..

In regards to tasted the good word of God, they tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

In regards to fall away, I find it interesting that the term "fall away" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, the wording alone does not specify whether the previous repentance was merely outward or genuine repentance that was accompanied by saving faith. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be definitive.

Hebrews 6:7,8 - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit/bad fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35). We already have an indication that the author is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition (the fruit they bear) is negative, suggesting that the author is talking about people who are not genuine Christians.

Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and permanently falling away do not accompany salvation.

It's generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? Why is it that we never find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue.

According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). The argument here is that the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away.." The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian were to fall away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows the conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption.

 

[Danthemailman]

If you have faith, then you haven't fallen away. Falling away (defection from Christ) and deliberately, willfully returning the state of sin (not struggling or repeating a specific sin) are what Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:26, and other related passages are about.
What does the Hebrews 10:26 mean concerning 'willful sin?'

Struggling with a sin, repeating a sin, drifting away, having doubts - none of those are rejecting faith or returning to slavery to sin.

To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION.

The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). Having the "knowledge" of the truth does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge.

 

[Goatee]

Jesus has given us a way to be saved. He is the way, the truth and the life. He suffered and died for us.

Once saved, always saved is only true if one truly turns to God and repents for any sins committed. It is not a blanc page to sin as much as one wants thinking you are saved so that you can do what you want!

We have to do our bit too. Jesus has done the hardest bit. He has opened the door for us. We can enter.

I continually fall and sin. I continually ask God for forgiveness and repent. I love God so much yet I am only human. I am not a true Saint. God knows this. He has given me a way to be pure and clean. He knows I will fall a lot.

If you sin, repent. Beg absolution. Be sorry. Ask God for forgiveness. Do not, take it for granted that you are immediately forgiven. You need to lay your sins before God.

 

[Danthemailman]

According to 2 Peter 2:21, it would be better for people to never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them, which I think clearly indicates that we can lose our salvation.

2 Peter 2:20 - Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

*Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature," having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the "corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

 

[1gh2g3f4]

this is a great topic... right now im only commenting so i can read more that is said here.

 

[dqhall]

I am not a new Christian but have some questions. The Gospel as I understand it is: God wants a relationship with us and for us to enter Heaven. But we are sinful and God does not let sin enter Heaven. Luckily God provides us a way out-His son Jesus. Jesus was God in flesh who took the penalty of our sin by his death/ resurrection.

To be saved you must believe Jesus's sacrifice as the only payment for your sins; you can't save yourself. Obedience will not save but obedience naturally comes after being saved. After being regenerated we obey God's commands because we have been saved.

Some believe you can lose your salvation. If that's the case then why did Christ endure one of the worst deaths imaginable? Or that we can stop sinning in this life. I believe we still sin but our attitude towards sin should change and we should start to sin less.

On here I've seen arguments regarding salvation and other things go on for pages. Everyone sure their position is the correct one.



Then how can anyone find out the truth? How can we find out through the word? As a Christian I want to know.

If you want to be saved like Jesus was saved, you must do as he did.

1 John 2:6 (WEB) he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

Matthew 6:24 (WEB) No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can't serve both God and Mammon.

John 3:21 (WEB) But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.