LOL Indeed, I did see it, Jen. Do you not yet realize that this alone kills your claim that all the trumpets must follow all the seals and all the bowls must follow all the trumpets? You cannot arbitrarily allow this contradiction while prohibiting all other irregularities in your desired order of events.Did you not even see this?
You can tell that the bowls are between the 6th and 7th trumpets in two ways (right off the top of my head) -
1. The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are identical - earthquake, hail, "it is done".
LOL Indeed, I did see it, Jen. Do you not yet realize that this alone kills your claim that all the trumpets must follow all the seals and all the bowls must follow all the trumpets? You cannot arbitrarily allow this contradiction while prohibiting all other irregularities in your desired order of events.
Please answer this one question so that the discussion can move forward. It has been presented multiple times, but you have not yet answered it.
Uh, no...OBVIOUSLY!
The 3 1/2 years/ 1260 days/ 42 months is actually 3 1/2 years/ 1260 days/ 42 months.
There is no Scriptural basis for substituting a day for a year.
The fact that God used all three of those ways to say exactly how much time is passing should be a major clue that He means what He says in that regard.
Rev 13:5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Uh, yes...OBVIOUSLY!
As I said in the other topic...
Numbers 14:34
"After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise."
Ezekiel 4:6
"And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."
(EDIT: I had to add this in for anyone else who didn't see the other topic)
"Both of these scriptures was a prophecy at the time. Whenever God gives a prophecy, if there is any time frame specified at all in it, you calculate it thusly. If God says something lasts for 42 months, 3 and 1/2 years, 1260 days, or time times half a time, you calculate it thusly. It DOES NOT mean what you say it does Jen. There is no 7-Year Trib as is popularly believed. This Great Tribulation already happened.
This 5th seal you are speaking of was the result of this great tribulation. It started at 538 AD and ended 1798. What do you get if you add up 538 and 1260? You get 1798.
The year 1798 is when this great tribulation ended."
What really makes your theory fall flat is that it's a private interpretation. My beliefs are based on a combination of Scriptural and Historical facts.
While im at it, here's the third Trumpet.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]DANIEL AND REVELATION, Chapter 8, p 484-487, by Uriah Smith.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"VERSE 10. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters. 11. And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In the interpretation and application of this passage, we are brought to the third important event which resulted in the subversion of the Roman empire. And in finding a historical fulfilment of this third trumpet, we shall be indebted to the Notes of Dr. Albert Barnes for a few extracts. In explaining this scripture, it is necessary, as this commentator says, -[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"That there should be some chieftain or warrior who might be compared to a blazing meteor; whose course would be singularly brilliant; who would appear suddenly LIKE a blazing star, and then disappear like a star whose light was quenched in the waters. That the desolating course of this meteor would be mainly on those portions of the world which abounded with springs of water and running streams; that an effect would be produced as if those streams and fountains were made bitter; that is, that many persons would perish, and that wide desolations would be caused in the vicinity of those rivers and streams, as if a bitter and baleful star should fall into the waters, and death should spread over lands adjacent to them, and watered by them." - Notes on Revelation 8.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It is here premised that this trumpet has allusion to the desolating wars and furious invasions of Attila against the Roman power, which he carried on at the head of his hordes of Huns. Speaking of this warrior, particularly of his personal appearance, Mr. Barnes says:-[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"In the manner of his appearance, he strongly resembled a brilliant meteor flashing in the sky. He came from the East gathering his Huns, and poured them down, as we shall see, with the rapidity of a flashing meteor, suddenly on the empire. He regarded himself also as devoted to Mars, the god of war, and was accustomed to array himself in a peculiarly brilliant manner, so that his appearance, in the language of his flatterers, was such as to dazzle the eyes of beholders."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In speaking of the locality of the events predicted by this trumpet, Mr. Barnes has this note;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"It is said particularly that the effect would be on 'the rivers' and on 'the fountains of waters.' If this has a literal application, or if, as was supposed in the case of the second trumpet, the language used was such as had reference to the portion of the empire that would be particularly affected by the hostile invasion, then we may suppose that this refers to those portions of the empire that abounded in rivers and streams and more particularly those in which the rivers and streams had their origin; for the effect was permanently in the 'fountains of waters.' As a matter of fact, the principal operations of Attila were on the regions of the Alps, and on the portions of the empire whence the rivers flow down into Italy. The invasion of Attila is described by Mr. Gibbon in this general language: 'The whole breadth of Europe, as it extends above five hundred miles from the Euxine to the Adriatic, was at once invaded, and occupied, and desolated, by the myriads of barbarians whom Attila led into the field.'"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"And the Name of the Star is Called Wormwood [denoting the bitter consequences]." These words - which are more intimately connected with the preceding verse, as even the punctuation in our version denotes - recall us for a moment to the character of Attila, to the misery of which he was the author or the instrument, and to the terror that was inspired by his name.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"'Total extirpation and erasure,' are terms which best denote the calamities he inflicted." He styled himself, "The Scourge of God."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"One of his lieutenants chastised and almost exterminated the Burgundians of the Rhine. They traversed, both in their march and in their return, the territories of the Franks; and they massacred their hostages as well as their captives. Two hundred young maidens were tortured with exquisite and unrelenting rage; their bodies were torn asunder by wild horses, or were crushed under the weight of rolling wagons; and their unburied limbs were abandoned on public roads, as a prey to dogs and vultures.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"It was the boast of Attila that the grass never grew on the spot which his horse had trod. The Western emperor with the senate and people of Rome, humbly and fearfully deprecated the wrath of Attila. And the concluding paragraph of the chapters which record his history, is entitled, 'Symptoms of the Decay and Ruin of the Roman Government.' 'The name of the star is called Wormwood.'" - Keith.[/FONT]
Oh, brother. You know what, I barely even look at the names. I care about the message and how it fits way more than who's speaking it. I usually pick the shortest excerpts to post here, since people on forums dont like big walls of text. All of them happened to be from Uriah.
How about you read it instead of being blinded by bias. Whatever false doctrines you dont agree with pertaining to the SDA wont be propagated through ANY of these posts. Seriously, this is childish.
Fourth Trumpet...
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]GREAT NATIONS OF TODAY, chapter 6 & 7, p 47-60, by Alonso T. Jones.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]THE events of the First, Second, and Third Trumpets had brought the Western Empire to the brink of annihilation; and the Fourth Trumpet accomplishes its utter extinction. "And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise." Verse 12. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]This trumpet illustrates the blotting out of the Roman government. Sun, moon, and stars are evidently symbols that denote the ruling powers in the government -- its emperors, consuls, and senators. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The last paragraph (nineteen) of the chapter of the "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," that gives the history of Attila's invasions, and thus of the Third Trumpet, is entitled, "Symptoms of Decay and Ruin" of the Western Empire; and of the history of Genseric, "the Monarch of the Sea," the history of the great burning mountain cast into the sea, which continued longer than did the falling star burning as a lamp, -- of this history the very last words are that Genseric "beheld the final extinction of the Empire of the West." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Thus by the very words of the standard history itself we are introduced to the great thought of the Fourth Trumpet; and by this to that other name -- Odoacer -- which in the destruction of the Roman Empire must forever stand conspicuous with those of Alaric, Genseric, and Attila. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"In the space of twenty years since the death of Valentinian [March 16, A. D. 455], `nine emperors had successively disappeared; and the son of Orestes [Odoacer], a youth recommended only by his beauty, would be the least entitled to the notice of posterity, if his reign, which was marked by the EXTINCTION of the Roman Empire in the West, did not leave a memorable era in the history of mankind." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The sun was smitten." "Extinction of the Western Empire A. D. 476 or 479," is the title of paragraph thirty-one of Chap. XXXVI, of the "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." And the record is: "Royalty was familiar to the barbarians, and the submissive people of Italy were prepared to obey without a murmur the authority which he [Odoacer] should condescend to exercise as the vicegerent of the emperor of the West. But Odoacer resolved to abolish that useless and expensive office; and such is the weight of antique prejudice that it required some boldness and penetration to discover the extreme facility of the enterprise. The unfortunate Augustulus was made the instrument of his own disgrace; and he signified his resignation to the senate; and that assembly, in their last act of obedience to a Roman prince, still affected the spirit of freedom and the forms of the constitution. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"An epistle was addressed, by their unanimous decree, to the Emperor Zeno, the son-in-law and successor of Leo, who had lately been restored, after a short rebellion, to the Byzantine throne. They solemnly disclaim the necessity or even the wish of continuing any longer the imperial succession in Italy; since in their opinion the majesty of a sole monarch is sufficient to pervade and to protect, at the same time, both the East and the West. In their own name, and in the name of the people, they consent that the seat of universal empire shall be transferred from Rome to Constantinople; and they basely renounce the right of choosing their master, the only vestige that yet remained of the authority which had given laws to the world. . . ." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Zeno's "vanity was gratified by the title of sole Emperor, and by the statues erected to his honor in the several quarters of Rome; he entertained a friendly, though ambiguous, correspondence with the patrician Odoacer; and he gratefully accepted the Imperial ensigns, the sacred ornaments of the throne and palace, which the barbarian was not unwilling to remove from the sight of the people." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The power and the glory of Rome, as bearing rule over any nation, became extinct. The name alone remained to the queen of nations. Every token of royalty disappeared from the imperial city. She who had ruled over the nations sat in the dust, like a second Babylon, and there was no throne where the Caesars had reigned. The last act of obedience to a Roman prince which that once august assembly performed, was the acceptance of the resignation of the last emperor of the West, and the abolition of the imperial succession in Italy. The sun of Rome was smitten. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Long had that name been a terror to the nations, and identified with supreme authority in the world. Long had the emperor of Rome shone and ruled in the earth, like the sun in the firmament. His was a kingdom and dominion, great and terrible, and strong exceedingly, to which all others were subjected or subordinate. His supreme or imperial authority, had, in the decline of the empire, been greatly obscured, but till then it had never been extinguished. It had been darkened and disfigured by a great storm; eclipsed, as it were, by a mountain that burned with fire; and outshone, as it were, by a falling star, like a fiery meteor. It had survived the assaults of Goths and Vandals and Huns. Though clouded and obscured, it had never been smitten; and though its light reached but a little way, where previously it had shone over all, it had never been extinguished. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Neither, at last, was the whole sun smitten, but `the third part.' The throne of the Caesars had for ages been the sun of the world, while other kings were designated as stars. But the imperial power had first been transferred to Constantinople by Constantine; and it was afterward divided between the East and the West. And the Eastern Empire was not yet doomed to destruction. Even the Western Empire was afterward revived; and a more modern dynasty arose to claim and maintain the title of emperor of the Romans. But, for the first time, after sudden, and violent, and distinctly marked and connected convulsions, the imperial power IN ROME, where for so long a period it had reigned triumphant, was cut off forever; and the third part of the sun was smitten. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"But though Rome itself, as an imperial city, ceased to exercise a sovereignty over any nation, yet the imperial ensigns, with the sacred ornaments of the throne and palace, were transferred to Constantinople, where Zeno reigned under the title of sole emperor. The military acclamations of the confederates of Italy saluted Odoacer with the title of king. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"A new conqueror of Italy, Theodoric, the Ostrogoth, speedily arose, who assumed the purple, and reigned by the right of conquest. `The royalty of Theodoric was proclaimed by the Goths (March 5, A. D. 493), with the tardy, reluctant, ambiguous consent of the emperor of the East.' The imperial Roman power, of which either Rome or Constantinople had been jointly or singly the seat, whether in the West or the East, was no longer recognized in Italy, and the third part of the sun was smitten, till it emitted no longer the faintest rays. The power of the Caesars was unknown in Italy, and a Gothic king reigned over Rome. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"But though the third part of the sun was smitten, and the Roman imperial power was at an end in the city of the Caesars, yet the moon and the stars still shone, or glimmered, for a little longer in the western hemisphere, even in the midst of Gothic darkness. The consulship and the senate [`the moon and the stars'] were not abolished by Theodoric. `A Gothic historian applauds the consulship of Theodoric as the height of all temporal power and greatness:' -- as the moon reigns by night, after the setting of the sun. And, instead of abolishing that office, Theodoric himself `congratulates those annual favorites of fortune, who, without the cares, enjoyed the splendor of the throne.' [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"But in their prophetic order, the consulship and the senate of Rome met their fate, though they fell not by the hands of Vandals or of Goths. The next revolution in Italy was its subjection to Belisarius, the general of Justinian, emperor of the East. He did not spare what barbarians had hallowed. `The Roman Consulship Extinguished by Justinian, A. D. 541,' is the title of the last paragraph of the fortieth chapter of Gibbon's History of the Decline and Fall of Rome. `The succession of consuls finally ceased in the thirteenth year of Justinian, whose despotic temper might be gratified by the silent extinction of a title which admonished the Romans of their ancient freedom." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The sun was smitten." Odoacer caused the title of emperor to cease. But one-third part only is affected -- the jurisdiction of Rome then extended over only the middle division of the empire, as ceded by Constantine to his three sons. One-third part of the moon was smitten; the effect of this political calamity had the same extent as the former. When the consulship was taken away, Rome had ceded all her territory beyond the Alps. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars. In the political firmament of the ancient world, while under the reign of imperial Rome, the emperorship, the consulate, and the senate, shone like the sun, the moon, and the stars. The history of their decline and fall is brought down till the two former were `extinguished,' in reference to Rome and Italy, which so long had ranked as the first of cities and of countries; and finally, as the Fourth Trumpet closes, we see the `extinction of that illustrious assembly,' the Roman senate. The city that had ruled the world, as if in mockery of human greatness, was conquered by the eunuch Narses, the successor of Belisarius. He defeated the Goths (A. D. 552), achieved the `conquest of Rome,' and the fate of the senate was sealed. [/FONT]
I told you, the passages in Numbers and Ezekiel, that Uriah Smith uses as proof that you can substitute a year for a day willy nilly in Scripture, were specific. God actually said to Ezekiel that he had to perform that task for 40 days - one day for each year of Israel's iniquity. It was a similar thing in Numbers.
In no way did God say in Daniel or Revelation that the 3 1/2 years/42months/1260 days/ time-times-half a time can be substituted for "years". He was VERY specific, saying that specific length of time four different ways so that it was abundantly clear that He meant what He said!
I want you to know I took your words very seriously. I take correction very seriously. If im wrong, I want to know and abandon whats false. However, I reread the scripture several times. It makes no sense for the 42 months to be literal. None. If this extremely microscopic teeny time period was in the past, there is NO WAY of knowing what time period. And I hardly believe it's future. Not only that, but if this Tribulation lasts only 42 LITERAL months, why does your version last over 2000 years?
The bowls CANNOT follow ALL the trumpets because the 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet are identical!
The bowls cannot follow the 7th trumpet itself because "it is done" - all that's left is Christ's destruction when he comes on the clouds.
7th trumpet:
Rev 11:18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
How is this not clear?
The order of the 7th seal is indeed:
Trumpets 1-6
Bowls 1-6
Trumpet 7/Bowl 7
Then Christ comes to destroy (and reward).
It cannot be:
Trumpets 1-7
Bowls 1-7
...because "it is done" and "the time has come to destroy" are, in your view, 6 bowls apart - even though the 7th bowl/7th trumpet are identical.
The 7th trumpet says, "the kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ"...but you have 7 bowls where the anti-christ is still reigning and preparing/gathering armies for war AFTER that moment.
Do you think the point of Revelations was so we can try and figure out the order of how everything is going to happen? Or to build our "Revelation timelines" that shows the timeline of the end? Or when the tribulation starts and when it ends and what time in the middle this happens or that?
Thanks broI'm glad you liked it LLOJ
I will migrate over to the other topic if you would like me to.
No. Imagine if the Bible didn't have the Revelation to John. Revelation is the description of the last 3000 years before all is set right again. The entire collection of books (the Bible) describes just about everything that is set forth in Revelation. Revelation is like the "test" at the end to see if you read the whole book. People won't get it unless they take in the Law, the Prophets, the Psalms and the New testament before reading and understanding Revelation.
That's one way that I see it.
The timeline is very, very clear in Revelation.
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