Trump is found liable for fraud in New York civil case

[Green Sun]

Trump is found liable for fraud in New York civil case

NEW YORK, Sept 26 (Reuters) - Donald Trump and his family business were found liable for fraud on Tuesday by a New York judge in state Attorney General Letitia James' civil lawsuit accusing the former U.S. president of illegally inflating his assets and net worth.

The decision by Justice Arthur Engoron of the New York state court in Manhattan is a near total defeat for Trump, and limits the scope of a scheduled Oct. 2 trial largely to how much the defendants should pay in damages.

Engoron also ordered the cancellation of business certificates for the Trump Organization and other corporate defendants, and sanctioned Trump's lawyers for contributing to their clients' "obstreperous" conduct and making "preposterous" legal arguments during the case.

Lawyers for Trump and the other defendants did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

James sued Trump in Sept. 2022, accusing him, his adult children and the Trump Organization of lying for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better terms on bank loans and insurance.

The attorney general has said Trump inflated his net worth by as much as $2.23 billion, and by one measure as much as $3.6 billion, on annual financial statements given to banks and insurers.

James has said assets whose values were inflated included Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, his penthouse apartment in Manhattan's Trump Tower, and various office buildings and golf courses.

Engoron said James had established liability for false valuations of several properties, including Mar-a-Lago and the penthouse.

The judge also chided Trump for offering defenses in a deposition that were "wholly without basis in law or fact."

"He claims that if the values of the property have gone up in the years since the (financial statements) were submitted, then the numbers were not inflated at that time," Engoron wrote.

"He also seems to imply that the numbers cannot be inflated because he could find a 'buyer from Saudi Arabia' to pay any price he suggests."

 

[Richard T]

Funny how the judge is including property assessor's valuations. In my experience they can be off hundreds of percent. I owned land where it was valued around 60,000 for several years. I sold it for 23,000 after being on the market for a year. I would have appealed its value but I lived out of state and just wanted to sell it. I saw more radical valuations that benefitted the owner. For example, one property sold for 19 million a year later. I looked at the property tax valuation for it and it was listed at just under two million. Same county who I guess favored the rich in this example.

Trump likely was fraudulent but so many things are today that unless there was harm, this action is just political. Elizabeth Warren said she was Native American, no real consequences for that. People making up sexes, pronouns, and fake accounts. Businesses like google and Amazon that sell ads or products with fraudulent claims or even fake items. Ratings are often fake, scammers abound and there is not even a face to this. Jesus discerned that Nathaniel had no guile. No deceit. Some Amish are like that when they can't sign their income taxes because it is so difficult to keep exact records and they are afraid to lie. Yet they can get prosecuted for this. Courts often lie because they pretend to follow the U.S. Constitution, or exempt certain evidence from jurors. Even if you say how are you, not only is the answer a lie at times, fine, but the question itself is really a greeting not a true seeking of the persons well being. I once went to televised evangelist's meeting. I sat in the 4th row but was told I must set in the first or second row. I complied but I was wondering why. as the meeting was very poorly attended as it got set to go. Only the first two rows were filled but when I saw meetings that aired, the lights and cameras were perfectly positioned so that you really never saw the empty chairs. Jails that pretend to treat, teachers that pretend to teach, counties that pretend to count every vote. politicians that pretend to represent anyone but themselves. I'm sure I have misrepresented myself in many things like calling in sick when I could have gone to work, but working sick too when I should have stayed home. This is no defense for Trump but let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Funny how the judge is including property assessor's valuations. In my experience they can be off hundreds of percent. I owned land where it was valued around 60,000 for several years. I sold it for 23,000 after being on the market for a year. I would have appealed its value but I lived out of state and just wanted to sell it. I saw more radical valuations that benefitted the owner. For example, one property sold for 19 million a year later. I looked at the property tax valuation for it and it was listed at just under two million. Same county who I guess favored the rich in this example.

Trump likely was fraudulent but so many things are today that unless there was harm, this action is just political. Elizabeth Warren said she was Native American, no real consequences for that. People making up sexes, pronouns, and fake accounts. Businesses like google and Amazon that sell ads or products with fraudulent claims or even fake items. Ratings are often fake, scammers abound and there is not even a face to this. Jesus discerned that Nathaniel had no guile. No deceit. Some Amish are like that when they can't sign their income taxes because it is so difficult to keep exact records and they are afraid to lie. Yet they can get prosecuted for this. Courts often lie because they pretend to follow the U.S. Constitution, or exempt certain evidence from jurors. Even if you say how are you, not only is the answer a lie at times, fine, but the question itself is really a greeting not a true seeking of the persons well being. I once went to televised evangelist's meeting. I sat in the 4th row but was told I must set in the first or second row. I complied but I was wondering why. as the meeting was very poorly attended as it got set to go. Only the first two rows were filled but when I saw meetings that aired, the lights and cameras were perfectly positioned so that you really never saw the empty chairs. Jails that pretend to treat, teachers that pretend to teach, counties that pretend to count every vote. politicians that pretend to represent anyone but themselves. I'm sure I have misrepresented myself in many things like calling in sick when I could have gone to work, but working sick too when I should have stayed home. This is no defense for Trump but let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

I personally don't have any problem throwing the first (and subsequent) stones...

 

[JustOneWay]

This is no defense for Trump but let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

The first stone has been cast, and it created a rock slide. Everybody sins, but I've never sexually molested a woman or fraudulently defrauded the government out of tax payments.

 

[Richard T]

Yes, the magnitude is different. As to the other crimes, I don't know the specifics, but Trump has not found criminally liable for any of that. The Trump organization paid fines and I think one person went to jail. With 75,000 pages of tax codes and officlal tax guidance anyone with a complicated return likely makes potential errors. Sometimes the IRS does not even know what may or may not be right.

 

[JustOneWay]

I don't know the specifics, but Trump has not found criminally liable for any of that.

Trump Organization found guilty on all counts of criminal tax fraud​

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/trump-organization-fraud-trial-verdict/index.html

Don't put down the popcorn....this is not over. 91 (or so) criminal indictments to go.

 

[Hank77]

The Trump organization paid fines and I think one person went to jail.

Trump Organization CFO Alan Weisselberg went to jail. Trump supposedly didn't know anything about the fraud and tax evasion. That was August of 2022.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1117948260/allen-weisselberg-trump-employee-pleads-guilty-felony

 

[USincognito]

Elizabeth Warren said she was Native American, no real consequences for that.

Sen. Warren never said she was Native American. Well, let's parse that out. When she was younger her family told her they had Native American ancestry. A lot of families do that. My father thought the same about his grandmother. What she never did was try to use that family lore as an advantage for school admission or employment. She never made a big deal out of it, but her political opponents did.

 

[Richard T]

I'll stand by the statement as the Washington post reports in 2019 "Sen. Elizabeth Warren said Tuesday that she was sorry that she identified herself as a Native American for almost two decades, reflecting her ongoing struggle to quiet a controversy that continues to haunt her as she prepares to formally announce a presidential bid." https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...27df76-2962-11e9-984d-9b8fba003e81_story.html It seems there were instances where she was identified as a minority. https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...0b7f568-08a5-11e2-a10c-fa5a255a9258_blog.html Anyway, while I cite individual examples the premise is that fraud to an extent has been embraced by society. This is sad but even sadder when politics dictates who actually gets prosecuted.

 

[Pommer]

Sen. Warren never said she was Native American. Well, let's parse that out. When she was younger her family told her they had Native American ancestry. A lot of families do that. My father thought the same about his grandmother. What she never did was try to use that family lore as an advantage for school admission or employment. She never made a big deal out of it, but her political opponents did.

Did not these political opponents have a nickname for Senator Warren?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Trump Organization found guilty on all counts of criminal tax fraud​

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/trump-organization-fraud-trial-verdict/index.html

Don't put down the popcorn....this is not over. 91 (or so) criminal indictments to go.

There are Trump supporters who don’t care if he’s guilty. I’ve seen videos where, when asked if they would support Trump if he murdered someone, said yes, they still would.

Let me go on the record and say that I wouldn’t support Biden if he murdered anyone…

 

[The Barbarian]

Trump likely was fraudulent but so many things are today that unless there was harm, this action is just political.

No, it's criminal or civil, depending on which of the charges you mean. You see, merely lying to a bank about the value of a property to get a loan is against the law. Even if the scheme failed, or the bank wasn't hurt, it's still a crime. Just as driving drunk is a crime, even if you never hurt anyone.

Elizabeth Warren said she was Native American,

She claimed to have a Native American ancestor. Genetic tests show that she did. Many Americans do.

no real consequences for that.

Even if it was false, she wouldn't have broken any laws. Trump lies all the time. Most of the time, it's not illegal. These times, it was. End of story.

 

[The Barbarian]

There are Trump supporters who don’t care if he’s guilty. I’ve seen videos where, when asked if they would support Trump if he murdered someone, said yes, they still would.

Because it's a cult, not a political party now.

Let me go on the record and say that I wouldn’t support Biden if he murdered anyone…

It's an incredible embarrassment for America that it's necessary for anyone to say that. But this is what it's come to.

 

[essentialsaltes]

H

 

[Pommer]

H

View attachment 337507

Totally hinged.
yup

 

[Ceallaigh]

I find hard to believe that Maralago is only worth 18 mil.

 

[A2SG]

I find hard to believe that Maralago is only worth 18 mil.

That's part of the problem.

See, Trump valued the property in different ways, for different reasons. The county, for example, assesses the value at $37 million, basing that on the net operating income as a club, a designation that gives Trump a tax break on the property. But on bank statements, Trump valued it at $739 million, “based on the false and misleading premise that it was an unrestricted residential plot of land that could be sold and used as a private home, which was clearly not the case.”

Thus, fraud.

-- A2SG, that's how that works....

 

[Ceallaigh]

Based on an ABC News article that just came out, it sounds like a pretty flimsy case to me. It think it's probably going to end up as another nothingburger.

Redirect Notice

 

[A2SG]

Based on an ABC News article that just came out, it sounds like a pretty flimsy case to me. It think it's probably going to end up as another nothingburger.

Redirect Notice

Well, since he's already guilty of fraud, it's definitely not a nothingburger.

But there is more to come!

-- A2SG, I see you shiver with antici.....

 

[Ceallaigh]

Uh huh yawn.