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Trinity is wrong.

H

hybrid

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1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is the problem. Many people are actually ordinary people.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

when you say ordinary people, you mean people who use senses to know things. this is what carnal mind is all about. but the spirit is ineffable. it cannot be known thru the usual senses because it has no shape nor color, it cant be touched, smell, seen or heard with ordinary physical sense of organs.

God is the Holy Spirit for only God knows the things of God.
and it is to the quickening of the christ within us that we can know the things of god, not by logic alone. thus spiritual knowing is different from logically/mentally apprehending, the difference is you are believing instead of knowing.

Compare the unity of God to the unity of man made in His image: man is comprised of spirit, soul, and body. Man is not three "beings", but "one being" with physical, emotional, and spiritual elements.

Yet God is not three beings, but one being with physical (Jesus) and spiritual (Holy Spirit) elements.
well if you have define man as one being with three elements. you can do so with god (so saying god is three being is just your arbitrary chosen definition of trinity), ergo comparing man to god, it can also be said that god is one being with three elements. what you have neglected in your understanding is the source (father). the physical (jesus) and the spiritual (HS) being divine expressions/reflections have its source in the father.

God has no soul. God is Spirit.

A spirit has no soul.
but if you think jesus is god, and obviously jesus has a soul. how do you reconcile that?

this is how i understand it, soul is the "identity" while the substance of the soul is spirit. and in a sense yes, spirit has no soul because spirit is prior or more fundamental to soul. or as they say, soul is the movement of the spirit
 
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The first name of God we find in Genesis is Elohim which is pretty much used in the creation story. Elohim sometimes has a capital ’G’ other times a lower case “g” when the word God is spelled out or interpreted, It has been said there are over 200 different names of God in the Bible.

Psalm 82
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohim).
2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods (elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nation


And I must add Elohim has nothing to do with two or three.

I'm curious, could you name any examples of this or are you just going make us go find it?
 
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Jpark

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when you say ordinary people, you mean people who use senses to know things. this is what carnal mind is all about. but the spirit is ineffable. it cannot be known thru the usual senses because it has no shape nor color, it cant be touched, smell, seen or heard with ordinary physical sense of organs.

and it is to the quickening of the christ within us that we can know the things of god, not by logic alone. thus spiritual knowing is different from logically/mentally apprehending, the difference is you are believing instead of knowing.

well if you have define man as one being with three elements. you can do so with god (so saying god is three being is just your arbitrary chosen definition of trinity), ergo comparing man to god, it can also be said that god is one being with three elements. what you have neglected in your understanding is the source (father). the physical (jesus) and the spiritual (HS) being divine expressions/reflections have its source in the father.

but if you think jesus is god, and obviously jesus has a soul. how do you reconcile that?

this is how i understand it, soul is the "identity" while the substance of the soul is spirit. and in a sense yes, spirit has no soul because spirit is prior or more fundamental to soul. or as they say, soul is the movement of the spirit
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man

Does God Have a Soul? | Learn The Bible

God has no soul. Only a man has a soul.

If Jesus is God, then Jesus is not a man, but a Spirit.
 
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SaintYAN

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There are also many scriptures which speak of God as 3..
As we look to the old Testament, God refers to Himself as an "Us"..

Gen 1:26 - Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.."


Gen 3:22 -Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us...


Is 6:8 -Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us

Hebrew Genesis 1:26 …vayomer elohim na’aseh adam b’tsalmenu kidmutanu…

Who is elohim talking to? And why does he say in our image and after our likeness? I’ll answer this question after we take a look at something else first. We must first understand that elohim cannot be talking with himself because it says vayomer elohim. In order for elohim to be talking to himself it needs to say va’omrim elohim or any other form of the verb, and it doesn’t. So, we understand that elohim must be talking to some other being or beings other than a part of himself as the Hebrew makes this crystal clear. Second, let’s see what happened in action of this command. ELOHIM speaks and then it happens.

Hebrew Genesis 1:27 …vayivra elohim eth ha’adam b’tsalmo…

The Hebrew acknowledges what was just said above; when the action is brought about, it says that elohim made man in his image, not their image. The plural was dropped in the action, thus teaching us that the being/s he was talking to had nothing to do with creating man. Let’s look at another passage to shine some light on this one:

Hebrew Genesis 5:1 …bayom baro elohim adam…

The Hebrew says, “In the day elohim created Adam.” Now notice, it says baro which means he created, but it’s not translated as such in this passage because it’s followed by the noun elohim. So, we can see that this cannot be a plural deity because if Moshe would have wanted us to understand that it was a plural deity he would have used the word baru.


Isaiah 6, God uses the royal us for Seraphim.


Genesis 3, God uses the royal us for Cherubim.


Genesis 11, God uses the royal us for angels.​


Some scripture references to look at..

Matt 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 3:13-17

John 14:15-23
Acts 2:32-33
2 Cor 13:14 -The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Eph 1:1-14
Eph 3:14-19
1 Pet 1:2

These scriptures reveal God to be 3 as distinct but also 1...

None of these passages "reveal God to be three."

You are assuming things that the text do not say.


As for Matthew 28:19, that passage is debated whether it really read "in the name of Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" or "in the name of Jesus."
 
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SaintYAN

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Doesn't confuse me.

Just because you personally find it confusing doesn't make it wrong. All that it logically means it that you are confused about something.

Excuse me? Just look at the volumes the so-called "church fathers" wrote on the doctrine of the trinity, which in reality was a developement over time. They use philosophy and invent new words and even use words that the Bible never used when talking about God.

Then we have the doctrine of the "hypostatic union" which is also a bunch of nonsense.

The doctrine of the trinity is nothing but confusion, saying that god is one and yet that god is three? That's no confusion than I don't know what is.
 
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H

hybrid

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Numbers 23:19 God is not a man

Does God Have a Soul? | Learn The Bible

God has no soul. Only a man has a soul.

If Jesus is God, then Jesus is not a man, but a Spirit.

interesting, some people deny christ divinity and some deny his humanity... both view can be validly supported by scriptures, thus trinity accepts them both...
 
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2ducklow

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interesting, some people deny christ divinity and some deny his humanity... both view can be validly supported by scriptures, thus trinity accepts them both...
people have used scripture to prove everything under the sun. Slavery was proved to be correct and right through scripture. Unitarians, trinitarians, oneness, JW's all use their interpretations of scritprues to prove their doctrines. bible verses can be and are interpreted to prove everything under the sun. and everyone is so positive that their interpretation is correct that they will say that their doctrine can be validly supported by scritpures, and everyone elses doctrine can't be supported by scritprue.

In short, the b ible can be interpreted to prove anything.
 
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SaintYAN

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1st John 5:6-12 is anti-docetic.

Doceticism: The name comes from the Greek word DOKEO, which means to seem or to appear. It maintained that Jesus was not a full flesh-and-blood human being. He was instead completely (and only) divine; he only “seemed” or “appeared” to be a human being, to feel hunger, thirst, and pain, to bleed, to die. Since Jesus was God, he could not really be a man. He simply came to earth in the “appearance” of a human flesh.

NASB 1st John 5:5-8 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

What this passage is saying, is that the Lord Jesus Christ was completely human. He had blood, and because he shed his blood on the cross/stake for us, and thus we are able to be saved from God’s wrath if we believe in him whom God sent into the world, the Messiah Jesus.

Bart D. Ehrman chairs the Department of Religious Studies at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is an authority on the history of the New Testament, the early church, and the life of Jesus. And I will be quoting from his book ‘Misquoting Jesus’ concerning 1st John 5:7, pages 80-83 (I have a recommendation of a few of his books on my Homepage):

There was one key passage of scripture that Erasmus’s source manuscripts did not contain, however. This is the account of 1 John 5:7-8, which scholars have called the Johannine Comma, found in the manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate but not in the vast majority of Greek manuscripts, a passage that had long been a favorite among Christian theologians, since it is the only passage in the entire Bible that explicitly delineates the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, but that the three all constitute just one God. In the Vulgate, the passage reads:

There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness on earth, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.

It is a mysterious passage, but unequivocal in its support of the traditional teachings of the church on the “triune God who is one.” Without this verse, the doctrine of the Trinity must be inferred from a range of passages combined to show that Christ is God, as is the Spirit and the Father, and that there is, nonetheless, only one God. This passage, in contrast, states the doctrine directly and succinctly. But Erasmus did not find it in his Greek manuscripts, which instead simply read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.” Where did the “Father, the Word, and the Spirit” go? They were not in Erasmus’s primary manuscript, or in any of the others that he consulted, and so, naturally, he left them out of his first edition of the Greek text. More than anything else, it was this that outraged the theologians of his day, who accused Erasmus of tampering with the text in an attempt to eliminate the doctrine of the Trinity and to devalue its corollary, the doctrine of the full divinity of Christ. In particular, Stunica, one of the chief editors of the Complutensian Polyglot, went public with his defamation of Erasmus and insisted that in the future editions he return the verse to its rightful place. As the story goes, Erasmus—possibly in an unguarded moment—agreed that he would insert the verse in a future edition of his Greek New Testament on one condition: that his opponents produce a Greek manuscript in which the verse could be found (finding it in Latin manuscripts was not enough). And so a Greek manuscript was produced. In fact, it was produced for the occasion. It appears that someone copied out the Greek text of the Epistles, and when he came to the passage in question, he translated the Latin text into the Greek, giving the Johannine Comma in its familiar, theologically useful form. The manuscript provided to Erasmus, in other words, was a sixteenth-century production, made to order. Despite his misgivings, Erasmus was true to his word and included the Johannine Comma in his next edition, and in all his subsequent editions. These editions, as I have already noted, became the basis for the editions of the Greek New Testament that were reproduced time and again by the likes of Stephanus, Beza, and the Elzevirs. These editions provided the form of the text that the translators of the King James Bible eventually used. And so familiar the passages to readers of the English Bible—from the King James in 1611 onward, up until modern editions of the twentieth century—include the woman taken in adultery, the last twelve verse of Mark, and the Johannine Comma, even through none of these passages can be found in the oldest and superior manuscripts of the Greek New Testament. They entered into the English stream of consciousness merely by a chance of history, based on manuscripts that Erasmus just happened to have handy to him, and one that was manufactured for his benefit. The various Greek editions of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries were so much alike that eventually printers could claim that they were the text that was universally accepted by all scholars and readers of the Greek New Testament—as indeed they were, since there were no competitors! The most-quoted claim is found in an edition produced in 1633 by Abraham and Bonaventure Elzevir (who were uncle and nephew), in which they told their readers, in words since become famous among scholars, that “You now have the text that is received by all, in which we have given nothing changed or corrupted.” The phrasing of this line, especially the words “text that is received by all,” provides us with the common phrase Textus Receptus (abbreviated T.R.), a term used by textual critics to refer to that form of the Greek text that is based, not on the oldest and best manuscripts, but on the form of text originally published by Erasmus and handed down to printers for more than three hundred years, until textual scholars began insisting that the Greek New Testament should be established on scientific principles based on our oldest and best manuscripts, not simply reprinted according to custom. It was the inferior textual form of the Textus Receptus that stood at the base of the earliest English translations, including the King James Bible, and other editions until the near end of the nineteenth century.

Thanks Bart D. Ehrman, you have done me a wonder by explaining this for me. Such awesome evidence against the wording of 1st John 5:7 that the KJV has. I highly recommend that everyone buys Misquoting Jesus for his/her bookshelf. His book is full of evidence against the godman doctrine and so much more.

source:http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/matt2819-willis.htm
 
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SaintYAN

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Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of god that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. New Revised Standard Version

Acts 20:28 prosecete eautoiV kai panti tw poimniw en w umaV to pneuma to agion eqeto episkopouV poimainein thn ekklhsian tou qeou hn periepoihsato dia tou aimatoV tou idiou. Westcott-Hort text from 1881

AimatoV is just a different usage of blood; idiou is “of his own” while aimatwn is the plural genitive “of blood.”

So, “the blood” possessed by “his own” but idiou is in the genitive, there is no object in the Westcott-Hort text.

Genitive: it’s the case generally of possession.

Example: ARXH KTISEWS, Creation’s beginning; it’s the beginning possessed by the group of creation. Basically, think of it like an English ‘s.

So, hAIMA is “blood” while hAIMATOS is “of blood”

Chester Beatti, dates 2nd Century. Acts 20:28 “...To shepherd the ekklesia of the master and of god, which he acquired through his own blood.”

Byzantine Majority Acts 20:28 prosecete oun eautoiV kai panti tw poimniw en w umaV to pneuma to agion eqeto episkopouV poimainein thn ekklhsian tou kuriou kai qeou hn periepoihsato dia tou idiou aimatoV

World English Bible Acts 20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.

Therefore, the true God does not bleed, but rather it is the master/lord (referring to the Messiah) who bled on the cross/stake.

Bart D. Ehrman chairs the Department of Religious Studies at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is an authority on the history of the New Testament, the early church, and the life of Jesus. And I will be quoting from his book ‘Misquoting Jesus’ concerning Acts 20:28, pages 113-114 (I have a recommendation of a few of his books on my Homepage):

And it happens in a passage in Acts 20:28, which in many manuscripts speaks of “the Church of God, which he obtained by his own blood.” Here again, Jesus appears to be spoken of as God. But in Codex Alexandrinus and some other manuscripts, the text instead speaks of “the Church of the Lord, which he obtained by his own blood.” Now Jesus is called the Lord, but he is not explicitly indentified as God. Alerted to such difficulties, Wettstein began thinking seriously about his own theological convictions, and became attuned to the problem that the New Testament rarely, if ever, actually calls Jesus God. And he began to be annoyed with his fellow pastors and teachers in his home city of Basel, who would sometimes confuse the language about God and Christ—for example, when talking about the Son of God as if he were the Father, or addressing God the Father in prayer and speaking of “your sacred wounds.” Wettstein thought that more precision was needed when speaking about the Father and the Son, since they were not the same. Wettstein’s emphasis on such matters started raising suspicions among his colleagues, suspicions that were confirmed for them when, in 1730, Wettstein published a discussion of the problems of the Greek New Testament in anticipation of a new edition that he was preparing. Included among the specimen passages in his discussion were some of these disputed texts that had been used by theologians to establish the biblical basis for the doctrine of the divinity of Christ. For Wettstein, these texts in fact had been altered precisely in order to incorporate that perspective: the original texts could not be used in support of it.

Thanks Bart D. Ehrman, for the nice explanation of the corruption of Acts 20:28 among many, many other passages. If you, the reader, want to know what these other passages are, buy his book.

source: http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/matt2819-willis.htm
 
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SaintYAN

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The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics: “As to Matthew 28:19, it says: It is the central piece of evidence for the traditional (Trinitarian) view. If it were undisputed, this would, of course, be decisive, but its trustworthiness is impugned on grounds of textual criticism, literary criticism and historical criticism. The obvious explanation of the silence of the New Testament on the triune name, and the use of another (Yehoshua) formula in Acts and Paul, is that this other formula was the earlier, and the triune formula is a later addition.”

Edmund Schlink, The Doctrine of Baptism, page 28: “The baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form can not be the historical origin of christian baptism. At the very least, it must be assumed that the text has been transmitted in a form expanded by the [catholic] church.”

The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, 275: “It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition.”

Wilhelm Bousset, Kyrios Christianity, page 295: “The testimony for the wide distribution of the simple baptismal formula [in the Name of Yehoshua] down into the second century is so overwhelming that even in Matthew 28:19, the trinitarian formula was later inserted.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263: “The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the catholic church in the second century.”

Hastings Dictionary of the Bible 1963, page 1015: “The trinity.-...is not demonstrable by logic or by Scriptural proofs,...The term trias was first used by Theophilus of Antioch (c AD 180),...(The term trinity) not found in Scripture...The chief trinitarian text in the NT is the baptismal formula in Mt 28:19...This late post-resurrection saying, not found in any other Gospel or anywhere else in the NT, has been viewed by some scholars as an interpolation into Matthew. It has also been pointed out that the idea of making disciples is continued in teaching them, so that the intervening reference to baptism with its trinitarian formula was perhaps a later insertion into the saying. Finally, Eusebius’s form of the (ancient) text (“in my name” rather than in the name of the trinity) has had certain advocates. (Although the trinitarian formula is now found in the modern-day book of Matthew), this does not guarantee its source in the historical teaching of Jesus. It is doubtless better to view the (trinitarian) formula as derived from early (catholic) christian, perhaps Syrian or Palestinian, baptismal usage (cf Didache 7:1-4), and as a brief summary of the (catholic) church’s teaching about god, christ, and the spirit…”

The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge: “Jesus, however, cannot have given His disciples this trinitarian order of baptism after His resurrection; for the New Testament knows only one baptism in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:43; 19:5; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13-15), which still occurs even in the second and third centuries, while the trinitarian formula occurs only in Matt. 28:19, and then only again (in the) Didache 7:1 and Justin, Apol. 1:61...Finally, the distinctly liturgical character of the formula...is strange; it was not the way of Jesus to make such formulas... the formal authenticity of Matt. 28:19 must be disputed...page 435.”

The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly catholic work, states: “It may be that this formula, (triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing ‘in the name of Jesus,’…”

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under “Baptism,” says: “Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early christian history, and its trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus.”

source:http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/matt2819-willis.htm
 
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SaintYAN

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New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19: “Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the trinity...”

James Moffett's New Testament Translation: In a footnote on page 64 about Matthew 28:19 he makes this statement: “It may be that this (trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing ‘in the name of Jesus,’ cf. Acts 1:5 +.”

Tom Harpur, former Religion Editor of the Toronto Star in his “For Christ’s sake,” page 103 informs us of these facts: “All but the most conservative scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command [triune part of Matthew 28:19] was inserted later. The [trinitarian] formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available [the rest of the New Testament] that the earliest church did not baptize people using these words (“in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”) baptism was “into” or “in” the name of Jesus alone. Thus it is argued that the verse originally read “baptizing them in My Name” and then was expanded [changed] to work in the [later catholic trinitarian] dogma. In fact, the first view put forward by German critical scholars as well as the Unitarians in the nineteenth century, was stated as the accepted position of mainline scholarship as long ago as 1919, when Peake's commentary was first published: The Church of the first days (AD 33) did not observe this world-wide (trinitarian) commandment, even if they knew it. The command to baptize into the threefold [trinity] name is a late doctrinal expansion.”

The Bible Commentary 1919 page 723: Dr. Peake makes it clear that: “The command to baptize into the threefold name is a late doctrinal expansion. Instead of the words baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost we should probably read simply-‘into My Name.’”

Theology of the New Testament: By R. Bultmann, 1951, page 133 under Kerygma of the Hellenistic Church and the Sacraments. The historical fact that the verse Matthew 28:19 was altered is openly confesses to very plainly: “As to the rite of baptism, it was normally consummated as a bath in which the one receiving baptism completely submerged, and if possible in flowing water as the allusions of Acts 8:36, Heb. 10:22, Barn. 11:11 permit us to gather, and as Did. 7:1-3 specifically says. According to the last passage, [the apocryphal catholic didache] suffices in case of the need if water is three times poured [false catholic sprinkling doctrine] on the head. The one baptizing names over the one being baptized the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, later expanded [changed] to the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church: By Dr. Stuart G. Hall 1992, pages 20 and 21. Professor Stuart G. Hall was the former Chair of Ecclesiastical History at King's College, London England. Dr. Hall makes the factual statement that catholic trinitarian baptism was not the original form of christian baptism, rather the original was Jesus name baptism: “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, although those words were not used, as they later are, as a formula. Not all baptisms fitted this rule…More common and perhaps more ancient was the simple, ‘In the name of the Lord Jesus or, Jesus Christ.’ This practice was known among Marcionites and Orthodox; it is certainly the subject of controversy in Rome and Africa about 254, as the anonymous tract De rebaptismate (“On rebaptism”) shows.”
 
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SaintYAN

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The Beginnings of Christianity: The Acts of the Apostles Volume 1, Prolegomena 1: The jewish gentile, and christian Backgrounds by F. J. Foakes Jackson and Kirsopp Lake 1979 version pages 335-337: “There is little doubt as to the sacramental nature of baptism by the middle of the first century in the circles represented by the Pauline Epistles, and it is indisputable in the second century. The problem is whether it can in this (trinitarian) form be traced back to Jesus, and if not what light is thrown upon its history by the analysis of the synoptic Gospels and Acts.”

According to catholic teaching, (traditional trinitarian) baptism was instituted by Yehoshua. It is easy to see how necessary this was for the belief in sacramental regeneration. Mysteries, or sacraments, were always the institution of the master of the cult; by them, and by them only, were its supernatural benefits obtained by the faithful. Nevertheless, if evidence counts for anything, few points in the problem of the gospels are as clear as the improbability of this teaching.

The reason for this assertion is the absence of any mention of christian baptism in Mark, Q, or the third Gospel, and the suspicious nature of the account of its institution in Matthew 28:19: “Go you into all the world, and make disciples of all Gentiles (nations), baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” It is not even certain whether this verse ought to be regarded as part of the genuine text of Matthew. No other text, indeed, is found in any extant manuscripts, in any language, but it is arguable that Justin Martyr, though he used the triune formula, did not find it in his text of the Gospels; Hermas seems to be unacquainted with it; the evidence of the Didache is ambiguous, and Eusebius habitually, though not invariably, quotes it in another form, “Go you into all the world and make disciples of all the Gentiles in my name.”

No one acquainted with the facts of textual history and patristic evidence can doubt the tendency would have been to replace the Eusebian text (In My Name) by the ecclesiastical (catholic trinitarian) formula of baptism, so that transcriptional evidence is certainly on the side of the text omitting baptism.

But it is unnecessary to discuss this point at length, because even if the ordinary (modern trinity) text of Matthew 28:19 be sound it can not represent historical fact.

Would they have baptized, as Acts says that they did, and Paul seem to confirm the statement, in the name of the master Yehoshua if the master himself had commanded them to use the (catholic trinitarian) formula of the assembly? On every point the evidence of Acts is convincing proof that the (catholic) tradition embodied in Matthew 28:19 is a late and unhistorical.

Neither in the third gospel nor in Acts is there any reference to the (catholic trinitarian) Matthaean tradition, nor any mention of the institution of (catholic trinitarian) christian baptism. Nevertheless, a little later in the narrative we find several references to baptism in water in the name of the master Yehoshua as part of recognized (Early) christian practice. Thus we are faced by the problem of a christian rite, not directly ascribed to Yehoshua, but assumed to be a universal (and original) practice. That it was so is confirmed by the Epistles, but the facts of importance are all contained in Acts.

Also in the same book on page 336 in the footnote number one, Professor Lake makes an astonishing discovery in the so-called Teaching or Didache. The Didache has an astonishing contradiction that is found in it. One passage refers to the necessity of baptism in the name of the master, which is Yehoshua the other famous passage teaches a trinitarian baptism. Lake raises the probability that the apocryphal Didache or the early catholic church manual may have also been edited or changed to promote the later trinitarian doctrine. It is a historical fact that the catholic church at one time baptized its converts in the name of Jesus but later changed to trinity baptism.

In the actual description of baptism in the Didache the triune (trinity) formula is used; in the instructions for the Eucharist (communion) the condition for admission is baptism in the name of the master. It is obvious that in the case of an eleventh-century manuscript the triune formula was almost certain to be inserted in the description of baptism, while the less usual formula had a chance of escaping notice when it was only used incidentally.
 
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SaintYAN

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The Catholic University of America in Washington, D. C. 1923, New Testament Studies Number 5: The Lord's Command To Baptize An Historical Critical Investigation. By Bernard Henry Cuneo page 27: “The passages in Acts and the Letters of St. Paul. These passages seem to point to the earliest form as baptism in the name of the Lord…Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief that christ commanded his disciples to baptize in the triune form? Had christ given such a command, it is urged, the apostolic church would have followed him, and we should have some trace of this obedience in the New Testament. No such trace can be found. The only explanation of this silence, according to the anti-traditional view, is this the short christological (Yehoshua Name) formula was (the) original, and the longer triune formula was a later development.”

A History of The Christian Church: 1953 by Williston Walker former Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale University. On page 95 we see the historical facts again declared: “With the early disciples generally baptism was “in the name of jesus christ.’ There is no mention of baptism in the name of the trinity in the New Testament, except in the command attributed to christ in Matthew 28:19. That text is early, (but not the original) however. It underlies the apostles’ creed, and the practice recorded (or interpolated) in the Teaching, (or the Didache) and by Justin. The christian leaders of the third century retained the recognition of the earlier form, and, in Rome at least, baptism in the name of christ was deemed valid, if irregular, certainly from the time of Bishop Stephen (254-257). This Text is the first man-made roman catholic creed that was the prototype for the later Apocryphal Apostles’ Creed. Matthew 28:19 was invented along with the Apocryphal Apostles’ Creed to counter so-called heretics and Gnostics that baptized in the name of jesus christ! Marcion although somewhat mixed up in some of his doctrine still baptized his converts the Biblical way in the name of jesus christ. Matthew 28:19 is the first non-Biblical roman catholic creed! The spurious catholic text of Matthew 28:19 was invented to support the newer triune, trinity doctrine. Therefore, Matthew 28:19 is not the ‘Great Commission of Jesus Christ.’ Matthew 28:19 is the great catholic hoax! Acts 2:38, Luke 24:47, and 1 Corinthians 6:11 give us the ancient original words and teaching of Yeshua/Jesus! Is it not also strange that Matthew 28:19 is missing from the old manuscripts of Sinaiticus, Curetonianus and Bobiensis? While the power of the episcopate and the significance of churches of apostolical (catholic) foundation was thus greatly enhanced, the Gnostic crisis saw a corresponding development of (man-made non-inspired spurious) creed, at least in the West. Some form of instruction before baptism was common by the middle of the second century. At Rome this developed, apparently, between 150 and 175, and probably in opposition to Marcionite Gnosticism, into an explication of the baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19 the earliest known form of the so-called Apostles Creed.”

Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief trinity text of Matthew 28:19: “The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome." The trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of roman catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.”

The Demonstratio Evangelica by Eusebius: Eusebius was the church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Yehoshua’s actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: ‘Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”
 
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Der Alte

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More evidence that some people will believe anything, by anybody, from anywhere no matter how absurd or ridiculous as l;ong as it supports their assumptions/presuppositions, without bothering to verify it as truth.

This piece of work which purports to be a quote from then Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope.
Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief trinity text of Matthew 28:19:
“The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."​
The trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of roman catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.”
As this quote is presented it reads,
"The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."​
However, what does the actual text say from his book? Here is the 2004 reprint of the book online for anyone to view.

Ratzinger’s remarks come at the start of a chapter subtitled: Introductory Remarks on the History and Structure of the Apostles' Creed. He is not giving a history on the text of Matthew 28:19. The subject of this paragraph is the Apostle’s creed NOT Matt 28:19. Now here's the actual quote from Cardinal Ratzinger:
It may be useful to preface the discussion with a few facts about the origin and structure of the Creed; these will at the same time throw some light on the legitimacy of the procedure. The basic form of our profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text comes from the city of Rome; but its internal origin lies in worship; more precisely, in the conferring of baptism. This again was fundamentally based on the words of the risen Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
The words in parentheses, (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian), which I have highlighted in red, from your quote are not in the book! The "text" Ratzinger is referring to, in the quote, is the text of the Apostle's Creed, not the text of Matthew 28:19! And as you can see, he goes on to quote Matthew 28:19, a few verses later the same way it appears in our modern translations and in the writings of Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, etc. Ratzinger is certainly not saying that, "The text of Matt 28:19 was fundamentally based on the words of the risen Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19!"

The Demonstratio Evangelica by Eusebius: Eusebius was the church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Yehoshua’s actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: ‘Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”

The omission of the phrase can be explained as due to Eusebius’ tendency to abbreviate, as Eusebius elsewhere often cites the longer form

1. [Contra Marcellum I.1.9; I.1.36;

2. Theologia III. 5.22;

3. EpCaesarea 3 (Socrates, Eccl.Hist 1.8); Psalms 117.1-4;

4. Theophania 4.8].

The shorter reading ‘in my name’ could have been formed as a result of harmonising Luke 24.47 and Mark 16.17 (as seems to occur in Psalms 59.9). Note that Eusebius also alludes to this passage without using either ‘in my name’ or the full clause [Demonstratio 1.3, 4, 6; Psalms 46.4; 95.3; 144.9; Isaiah 41.10; Theophania 3.4; Theologia III.3]. See further Hubbard, The Matthean Redaction of a Primitive Apostolic Commissioning, pp. 151-175; Schaberg, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, pp. 27-29 (who refer to earlier studies).

L. Ray Smith and Matthew 28:19 « Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth
 
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SaintYAN

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I was quoting what others had to say concerning Matthew 28:19.

Matthew 28:19 doesn't prove a triune god. Sorry to burst your bubble. In verse 18 Jesus says that all authority was given to him, and yes, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The name Jesus has this authority. In the authority of God, the Messiah, and God's active presence within the universe. Nothing here about any "trinity."

Thanks for commenting and have a good day. :cool:
 
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Der Alte

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I was quoting what others had to say concerning Matthew 28:19.

Matthew 28:19 doesn't prove a triune god. Sorry to burst your bubble. In verse 18 Jesus says that all authority was given to him, and yes, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The name Jesus has this authority. In the authority of God, the Messiah, and God's active presence within the universe. Nothing here about any "trinity."

Thanks for commenting and have a good day.

Do you have any more blatantly false copy/pastes that you want me to expose? When you copy/paste something from somewhere then you should ensure that what you are copying is true, not full of misrepresentations, half-truths, and outright falsehoods as the two items I commented on were. You did not even identify the anti-Trinitarian web site you copy/pasted from. That is dishonest and illegal!

As I said your copy/paste proves that some folks will believe anything, written by anybody, anywhere, as long as it supports their assumptions/presuppositions. I have seen that same list many times and just like you, nobody has ever actually seen any of the primary sources, or checked to see if any of the information is correct. That list even has a quote from an ex-priest atheist.

If you want to discuss and/or prove anything about the Trinity then do your own homework, and make sure whatever you post is the truth. If Matt 28:19 does not prove anything about the Trinity then why do so many people expend so much time trying to find something which proves it is not authentic?
 
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Der Alte

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I was quoting what others had to say concerning Matthew 28:19.

Matthew 28:19 doesn't prove a triune god. Sorry to burst your bubble. In verse 18 Jesus says that all authority was given to him, and yes, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The name Jesus has this authority. In the authority of God, the Messiah, and God's active presence within the universe. Nothing here about any "trinity."

Thanks for commenting and have a good day.

Do you have any more blatantly false copy/pastes that you want me to expose? When you copy/paste something from somewhere then you should ensure that what you are copying is true, not full of misrepresentations, half-truths, and outright falsehoods as the two items I commented on were. You did not even identify the anti-Trinitarian web site you copy/pasted from. That is dishonest and illegal!

As I said your copy/paste proves that some folks will believe anything, written by anybody, anywhere, as long as it supports their assumptions/presuppositions. I have seen that same list many times and just like you, nobody has ever actually seen any of the primary sources, or checked to see if any of the information is correct. That list even has a quote from an ex-priest atheist.

If you want to discuss and/or prove anything about the Trinity then do your own homework, and make sure whatever you post is the truth. If Matt 28:19 does not prove anything about the Trinity then why do so many people expend so much time trying to find something which proves it is not authentic?
 
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2ducklow

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Do you have any more blatantly false copy/pastes that you want me to expose? When you copy/paste something from somewhere then you should ensure that what you are copying is true, not full of misrepresentations, half-truths, and outright falsehoods as the two items I commented on were. You did not even identify the anti-Trinitarian web site you copy/pasted from. That is dishonest and illegal!

As I said your copy/paste proves that some folks will believe anything, written by anybody, anywhere, as long as it supports their assumptions/presuppositions. I have seen that same list many times and just like you, nobody has ever actually seen any of the primary sources, or checked to see if any of the information is correct. That list even has a quote from an ex-priest atheist.

If you want to discuss and/or prove anything about the Trinity then do your own homework, and make sure whatever you post is the truth. If Matt 28:19 does not prove anything about the Trinity then why do so many people expend so much time trying to find something which proves it is not authentic?
uh oh, looks like you got someone else besides me, saying Matthew28.19 is bogus. Did you cut and paste your responses to me here and address them to him?
 
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SaintYAN

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Do you have any more blatantly false copy/pastes that you want me to expose?

If Matt 28:19 does not prove anything about the Trinity then why do so many people expend so much time trying to find something which proves it is not authentic?

Finding one or two quotes, probably one from what I wrote as wrong (and that's arguable) doesn't prove all the other quotes wrong. So don't think too much of your "exposing" a SINGLE quote. :D

I as I demonstrated, I have no problem with it originally saying "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." I explained in my previous post. The doctrine of the trinity is in serious danger if Matthew 28:19 is the only passage you got, and even Matthew 28:19 doesn't talk about any "uniting of 'three persons' under 'one nature'" or "one god who is three persons" or any of that other nonsense. Like I said, I explained Matthew 28:19 in my previous post. I am yet to see a SINGLE passage that in any way "reveals the trinity from the text of the Bible."

Thanks for commenting and have a good day. :cool:
 
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Der Alte

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Bart D. Ehrman chairs the Department of Religious Studies at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is an authority on the history of the New Testament, the early church, and the life of Jesus. And I will be quoting from his book ‘Misquoting Jesus’ concerning 1st John 5:7, pages 80-83 (I have a recommendation of a few of his books on my Homepage):

There was one key passage of scripture that Erasmus’s source manuscripts did not contain, however. This is the account of 1 John 5:7-8, which scholars have called the Johannine Comma, found in the manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate but not in the vast majority of Greek manuscripts, a passage that had long been a favorite among Christian theologians, since it is the only passage in the entire Bible that explicitly delineates the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, but that the three all constitute just one God. In the Vulgate, the passage reads:

There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness on earth, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.

It is a mysterious passage, but unequivocal in its support of the traditional teachings of the church on the “triune God who is one.” Without this verse, the doctrine of the Trinity must be inferred from a range of passages combined to show that Christ is God, as is the Spirit and the Father, and that there is, nonetheless, only one God. This passage, in contrast, states the doctrine directly and succinctly. But Erasmus did not find it in his Greek manuscripts, which instead simply read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.” Where did the “Father, the Word, and the Spirit” go? They were not in Erasmus’s primary manuscript, or in any of the others that he consulted, and so, naturally, he left them out of his first edition of the Greek text. More than anything else, it was this that outraged the theologians of his day, who accused Erasmus of tampering with the text in an attempt to eliminate the doctrine of the Trinity and to devalue its corollary, the doctrine of the full divinity of Christ. [Anti-Bible rant from an Atheist with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence!] In particular, Stunica, one of the chief editors of the Complutensian Polyglot, went public with his defamation of Erasmus and insisted that in the future editions he return the verse to its rightful place. [Where?]As the story goes, Erasmus—possibly in an unguarded moment—agreed that he would insert the verse in a future edition of his Greek New Testament on one condition: that his opponents produce a Greek manuscript in which the verse could be found (finding it in Latin manuscripts was not enough). And so a Greek manuscript was produced. In fact, it was produced for the occasion. It appears that someone copied out the Greek text of the Epistles, and when he came to the passage in question, he translated the Latin text into the Greek, giving the Johannine Comma in its familiar, theologically useful form. The manuscript provided to Erasmus, in other words, was a sixteenth-century production, made to order. [A base false accusation passed on for years and years exposed by H.J. De Jonge in 1980!] Despite his misgivings, Erasmus was true to his word and included the Johannine Comma in his next edition, and in all his subsequent editions. These editions, as I have already noted, became the basis for the editions of the Greek New Testament that were reproduced time and again by the likes of Stephanus, Beza, and the Elzevirs. These editions provided the form of the text that the translators of the King James Bible eventually used. And so familiar the passages to readers of the English Bible—from the King James in 1611 onward, up until modern editions of the twentieth century—include the woman taken in adultery, the last twelve verse of Mark, and the Johannine Comma, even through none of these passages can be found in the oldest and superior manuscripts of the Greek New Testament. They entered into the English stream of consciousness merely by a chance of history, based on manuscripts that Erasmus just happened to have handy to him, and one that was manufactured for his benefit. The various Greek editions of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries were so much alike that eventually printers could claim that they were the text that was universally accepted by all scholars and readers of the Greek New Testament—as indeed they were, since there were no competitors! The most-quoted claim is found in an edition produced in 1633 by Abraham and Bonaventure Elzevir (who were uncle and nephew), in which they told their readers, in words since become famous among scholars, that “You now have the text that is received by all, in which we have given nothing changed or corrupted.” The phrasing of this line, especially the words “text that is received by all,” provides us with the common phrase Textus Receptus (abbreviated T.R.), a term used by textual critics to refer to that form of the Greek text that is based, not on the oldest and best manuscripts, but on the form of text originally published by Erasmus and handed down to printers for more than three hundred years, until textual scholars began insisting that the Greek New Testament should be established on scientific principles based on our oldest and best manuscripts, not simply reprinted according to custom. It was the inferior textual form of the Textus Receptus that stood at the base of the earliest English translations, including the King James Bible, and other editions until the near end of the nineteenth century.


Thanks Bart D. Ehrman, you have done me a wonder by explaining this for me. Such awesome evidence against the wording of 1st John 5:7 that the KJV has. I highly recommend that everyone buys Misquoting Jesus for his/her bookshelf. His book is full of evidence against the godman doctrine and so much more.

There is NO, ZERO, NONE evidence here just Ehrman the Atheist's unsupported assumptions/presuppositions, perpetuating false arguments which have been proven wrong almost 30 years ago.
"Erasmus promised that he would insert the Comma Johanneum, as it is called, in future editions if a single Greek manuscript could be found that contained the passage. At length such a copy was found—or made to order." -Bruce Metzger

However, on pg 291 (n2) of the (new) 3rd edition of The Text of the New Testament Bruce Metzger writes: "What is said on p. 101 above about Erasmus' promise to include the Comma Johanneum if one Greek manuscript were found that contained it, and his subsequent suspicion that MS. 61 was written expressly to force him to do so, needs to be corrected in the light of the research of H.J. de Jonge, a specialist in Erasmian studies who finds no explicit evidence that supports this frequently made assertion; see his "Erasmus and the Comma Johanneum", Ephemerides Theologicae Lovanienses, lvi (1980)," pp 381-9.

In A History of the Debate over 1 John 5:7,8, Michael Maynard records that H.J. de Jonge, the Dean of the Faculty of Theology at Rijksuniversiteit (Leiden, Netherlands), a recognized specialist in Erasmian studies, refuted the myth of a promise in 1980, stating that Metzger's view on Erasmus' promise "has no foundation in Erasmus' work. Consequently it is highly improbable that he included the difficult passage because he considered himself bound by any such promise."

http://www.theopedia.com/Johannine_Comma
 
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