Trinity is wrong.

[Der Alte]

Finding one or two quotes, probably one from what I wrote as wrong (and that's arguable) doesn't prove all the other quotes wrong. So don't think too much of your "exposing" a SINGLE quote. [ . . . ]

You did NOT write anything! All you did was copy/paste that long list of misquotes, out-of-context quotes and outright fabrications from C.D. Willis,' "Collection of Evidence Against the Traditional Wording of Matthew 28:19." As I said it is dishonest and illegal. I have proved one "quote" to be filled with lies, and another to be wrong because it ignores the evidence I posted. And here is another one for you in that list is a quote from Tom Harpur, former Religion Editor of the Toronto Star who wrote a book, "The Pagan Christ" where he tries to prove that everything about Christianity is copied from ancient pagan myths.

Now having proved three of your copy/paste quotes to be worthless, the burden of proof is on you to go through your list and make sure everything else you posted is the truth. And I can assure you it is not. As I keep saying some people will believe anything, by anybody, anywhere as long as it props up their false assumptions/presuppositions and will not verify anything. And when they are proven wrong they will still argue as you are doing here. Go do your own homework and see how much evidence you can find.

 

[SaintYAN]

You did NOT write anything! All you did was copy/paste that long list of misquotes, out-of-context quotes and outright fabrications from C.D. Willis,' "Collection of Evidence Against the Traditional Wording of Matthew 28:19." As I said it is dishonest and illegal. I have proved one "quote" to be filled with lies, and another to be wrong because it ignores the evidence I posted. And here is another one for you in that list is a quote from Tom Harpur, former Religion Editor of the Toronto Star who wrote a book, "The Pagan Christ" where he tries to prove that everything about Christianity is copied from ancient pagan myths.

Now having proved there of your copy/paste quotes to be worthless, the burden of proof is on you to go through your list and make sure everything else you posted is the truth. And I can assure you it is not. As I keep saying some people will believe anything, by anybody, anywhere as long as it props up their false assumptions/presuppositions and will not verify anything. And when they are proven wrong they will still argue as you are doing here. Go do your own homework and see how much evidence you can find.

Having a SINGLE quote wrong, according to you, doesn't prove all the other quotes wrong.

So, where is this "evidence" that the trinity is not wrong? This is what this thread is about; that the trinity is wrong. The trinity is nowhere talked about in the Bible. We don't find any apostles acknowledging the trinity by saying "God the father, son, and holy spirit," "One God who is the father, son, and holy spirit," "Our God the father, son, and holy spirit." Nothing of that sort. Genesis 1:26-27 has been refuted. Matthew 28:19 has been refuted (and I'm not talking about the "quotes"). 1 John 5:7 has been refuted. There's no "evidence" that the "triune god" is scriptural.

 

[Der Alte]

Having a SINGLE quote wrong, according to you, doesn't prove all the other quotes wrong.

Three quotes have been proven wrong, in some way. And there are others I have looked up in the past.

So, where is this "evidence" that the trinity is not wrong? This is what this thread is about; that the trinity is wrong. The trinity is nowhere talked about in the Bible.

The "Bible" is nowhere talked about in scripture!

We don't find any apostles acknowledging the trinity by saying "God the father, son, and holy spirit," "One God who is the father, son, and holy spirit," "Our God the father, son, and holy spirit." Nothing of that sort. Genesis 1:26-27 has been refuted. Matthew 28:19 has been refuted (and I'm not talking about the "quotes"). 1 John 5:7 has been refuted. There's no "evidence" that the "triune god" is scriptural.

The Trinity has never been refuted. All there is is people like you copy/pasting the same ol', lame ol' arguments and false quotes.

 

[Harry3142]

Who is Jesus Christ? Why did God send him to us? Where is he now? What does he intend to do in the future? Will he be forever as he is now? These are all questions which Christians have asked ever since Christ ascended. St. Paul gave us the answers to some of our questions:

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." (I Corinthians 15:20-28,NIV)

So for the present Jesus Christ rules, but there will be an end to this reign. The Person identified as God the Father will end Christ's reign after his work is completed.

And as for The Holy Spirit, Jesus himself told us who must send him, and the special place he has:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command, and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.' (The Gospel of John 14:15-17,NIV)

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (The Gospel of Matthew 12:30-32,NIV)

Even his own disciples were warned by Jesus that to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit was to cross a line that they could never cross back over. It was, and still is, seen as 'the unpardonable sin'. He is to be recognized, and respected, as the Counsellor, sent by God the Father to guide, direct, and even protect us as we continue in our daily lives as Christians.

When we refer to the Holy Spirit have we actually referred to what is truly God? Did God present himself in different forms so that our finite knowledge could comprehend him more fully? When we say 'Counsellor' are we describing part of a triune God, or are we describing that which is truly God?

Since I myself am finite I choose to see God in his triune nature as three seperate and distinct Persons. This makes it easier for me to understand what he has done, is doing, and will do in the future. I see God the Son as a distinct Person, perfectly obedient to God the Father, even when that obedience caused him to be crucified. I see God the Father as accepting the sacrifice his Son offered to him on our behalf, and thus declaring that his requirement had been fulfilled that all those who would enter his presence must be perfect. I see God the Holy Spirit, counselling us as to what path we are to follow, providing the strength needed by us during times of trial, and even scolding us when we say or do something that demonstrates our human weakness.

I see God in this manner because he has shown himself to us in this manner. Why has he done this? To know that is to know the mind of God, and that is beyond our finite reasoning even today.

 

[SaintYAN]

The Trinity has never been refuted.

You know what dude, quote ANY and EVERY "proof text" from the Bible that supposedly supports your "triune god" and watch them get refuted.

The trinity has been refuted so many time in history that it's not even funny anymore.

 

[Der Alte]

You know what dude, quote ANY and EVERY "proof text" from the Bible that supposedly supports your "triune god" and watch them get refuted.

The trinity has been refuted so many time in history that it's not even funny anymore.

Someone is misinformed. All anti-Trinitarian religious groups cannot be traced any earlier than the mid 1800s when all such groups came into existence, JW, LDS, OP, UU, WWCG, kristadelfian, etc. The argument All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore the words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who," and/or any other words one chooses to mention, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Scripture which identifies the Holy Spirit as God.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Act 5:3-4, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T יהוה/YHWH, see Jer 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH]] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]​

This passage identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

 

[Der Alte]

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #2, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY, the kindness and love of God our Savior, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy, Ghost, shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savour, all three..

Also see, #10, 2 Thess 2:13, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three.

(1.) 2 Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

(2.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of [1]regeneration, and renewing of [2]the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he [3] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of [2] the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and [3] sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning [1]God, chose you to be saved through [2] the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might [3] share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts

Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings

Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles

Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation

Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,​

 

[SaintYAN]

Der Alter, I don't see a single passage where it shows a trinity. Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I'm pretty sure I didn't see a single passage that teaches a triune god in any manner.

I'll deal with your "godman jesus" passages in the thread 'Why Jesus is not the Genuine God' sometime this week or maybe next week when I get the time to. Majority of the passages you quoted have already been refuted. Well, to be honest, they all have been refuted on my youtube channel but this is a forum so I'll need to take some time and type up the refutations. These passages you presented for your "godman jesus" are pathetic as I shall demonstrate in due time.

There's no argument that the Father is not the Genuine God.

As for the Holy Spirit, I have no problem with the Father's active presence being referred to as God nor do I have a problem with it influence people and talking through them. Care to show me a single passage where the Holy Spirit talks on its own rather than through someone? I guess I'll start a separate thread for the Holy Spirit when I get the chance to.

So, like I said, you haven't proved any "triune god" from the scriptures. All you proved is that you do not understand the passages you quoted and that you make a lot of assumptions that the scriptures do not hint to.

I'll shred your two above posts to pieces in due time. I just got off work and I'm too tired to do anything tonight.

Have a good day.

 

[wayseer]

The trinity has been refuted so many time in history that it's not even funny anymore.

If the Trinity has been 'refuted so many times in history that it's not even funny anymore' how come it's such a big deal to you?

Thou protesteth too much I fear.

 

[SaintYAN]

If the Trinity has been 'refuted so many times in history that it's not even funny anymore' how come it's such a big deal to you?

Thou protesteth too much I fear.

Because I care for people's salvation, and the doctrine of the trinity puts people on the road that is heading to the Lake of Fire.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, I don't see a single passage where it shows a trinity. Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I'm pretty sure I didn't see a single passage that teaches a triune god in any manner.

Right, baptism is in the name of all three father, son, and holy spirit. Salvation requires all three father, son, and holy spirit.

I'll deal with your "godman jesus" passages in the thread 'Why Jesus is not the Genuine God' sometime this week or maybe next week when I get the time to. Majority of the passages you quoted have already been refuted. Well, to be honest, they all have been refuted on my youtube channel but this is a forum so I'll need to take some time and type up the refutations. These passages you presented for your "godman jesus" are pathetic as I shall demonstrate in due time.

I have heard all this many times before. All such boasting is hollow and self serving.

There's no argument that the Father is not the Genuine God.

Good. How about when the father calls the son, God?

As for the Holy Spirit, I have no problem with the Father's active presence being referred to as God nor do I have a problem with it influence people and talking through them. Care to show me a single passage where the Holy Spirit talks on its own rather than through someone? I guess I'll start a separate thread for the Holy Spirit when I get the chance to.

Scripture does NOT say that the holy spirit is God's "active presence!" Verse where the holy spirit talks on his own? Read my posts above.

So, like I said, you haven't proved any "triune god" from the scriptures. All you proved is that you do not understand the passages you quoted and that you make a lot of assumptions that the scriptures do not hint to.

I first started learning to speak Greek the year that I and Elvis was in Germany. I studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level 2 decades later. I can read the scriptures is four different languages. I doubt that you could locate a Hebrew verb, or parse a Greek verb if your life depended on it.

I'll shred your two above posts to pieces in due time. I just got off work and I'm too tired to do anything tonight.

When you start this "shredding," please start thinking about showing me credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any organized body of believers, by any name, who believed essentially as you do, any time between 90 AD, when the NT was completed, and the mid-1800s when virtually all anti-Trinitarian religious groups came into existence, e.g. LDS, JW, OP, UU, WWCG, kristadelfian, etc.

 

[SaintYAN]

I noticed you think a lot of your posts for being nothing but mere assumptions and interpolations. I don't even had to address your assumptions that the text do not hint to, I'll just address the text themselves.

You second post talks nothing but any "triune god" nor your first post. All I see is the mention of God (the Father), the mention of the Messiah (Yehoshua), and the mention of God's active presence (the Holy Spirit). Nothing about anuy "triune god." Nothing about any one in the scriptures saying "there is one god who is the father, son, and holy spirit," "god is the father, son, and holy spirit," "the father is a person, the son is a person, and the holy spirit is a person," "god is three in one," and so on...NOTHING ABOUT ANY "triune god" IN THE SCRIPTURES.

By the way, a lot of your "proof texts" for the so-called "deity" of Jesus have already been refuted in my thread 'Why Jesus is not the Genuine God.'

I'll start refuting your other so-called "proof texts" for the so-called "deity" of Jesus tonight and continue till there are none left. I must say, they're really pathetic attempts. Without Jesus being fully God, you have no triune god and your doctrine cripples to the ashtray.

 

[Der Alte]

I noticed you think a lot of your posts for being nothing but mere assumptions and interpolations. I don't even had to address your assumptions that the text do not hint to, I'll just address the text themselves.

You second post talks nothing but any "triune god" nor your first post. All I see is the mention of God (the Father), the mention of the Messiah (Yehoshua), and the mention of God's active presence (the Holy Spirit). Nothing about anuy "triune god." Nothing about any one in the scriptures saying "there is one god who is the father, son, and holy spirit," "god is the father, son, and holy spirit," "the father is a person, the son is a person, and the holy spirit is a person," "god is three in one," and so on...NOTHING ABOUT ANY "triune god" IN THE SCRIPTURES.

By the way, a lot of your "proof texts" for the so-called "deity" of Jesus have already been refuted in my thread 'Why Jesus is not the Genuine God.'

I'll start refuting your other so-called "proof texts" for the so-called "deity" of Jesus tonight and continue till there are none left. I must say, they're really pathetic attempts. Without Jesus being fully God, you have no triune god and your doctrine cripples to the ashtray.

Recall I asked you to show me evidence for any organized religious group, by any name, which believed essentially as you do, between 90 AD, and the mid-1800s when whichever anti-Trinitarian denomination you belong to came into existence.

Here is evidence from the only extant history of the early church, in the years immediately after the apostles. This is the church that Jesus built against which the gates of hell cannot prevail. These writers all spoke Greek and faced torture and death on a daily basis because they would not denounce Jesus and worship pagan idols and the Roman emperor.

Link to writings of the early church fathers (ECF).

Ignatius, Epistle to the Ephesians - [30-107 AD] - Disciple of John

But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word,

Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians [30-107 AD]

He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for “of His kingdom there shall be no end,” says Daniel the prophet. …

Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians [30-107 AD] [30-107 AD]

And God the Word was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own. . . .Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Philadelphians [30-107 AD]

If any one confesses these things, and that God the Word did dwell in a human body, being within it as the Word, . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrneans [30-107 AD]

our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God, “the firstborn of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Tarsians [30-107 AD]

. . .He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things.

How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not 210 rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Ignatius, Epistle to the Philippians [30-107 AD]

And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.” …

... For “the Word became flesh.” For “Wisdom builded for herself a house.” And God the Word was born as man, with a body, of the Virgin, without any intercourse of man.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho - [110-165 AD]

God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos;

“And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, . . .

Irenaeus - Against Heresies Book 1 [120-202 AD] - Disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of John

. . . “In the beginning was the Word,” for He was in the Son; “and the Word was with God,” for He was the beginning; “and the Word was God,” of course, for that which is begotten of God is God. “The same was in the beginning with God” …

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 2 [120-202 AD]

… and has in Himself nothing more ancient or late than another, and nothing at variance with another, but continues altogether equal, and similar, and homogeneous, … He is all intelligence, and all word, . . .He is intelligence, in that also He is word, and that this Nous is His Logos, . . . And in what respect will the Word of God — yea, rather God Himself, since He is the Word . . .

Chap 17 Father of all is not to be regarded as a kind of compound Being, who 762 can be separated from his Nous (mind), as I have already shown; but Nous is the Father, and the Father Nous… he who springs from Him as Logos, or rather that Nous himself, since he is Logos, must be perfect and impassible,… they are of the same substance with himself, should be perfect and impassible, …

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 3 [120-202 AD]

For inasmuch as the Word of God was man from the root of Jesse, and son of Abraham, in this respect did the Spirit of God rest upon Him, and anoint Him to preach the Gospel to the lowly. But inasmuch as He was God, . . .

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 [120-202 AD]

And through the Word Himself who had been made visible and palpable, was the Father shown forth, … all saw the Father in the Son: for the Father is the invisible of the Son, but the Son the visible of the Father. And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God.

He, therefore, who was known, was not a different being from Him who declared “No man knoweth the Father,” but one and the same, the Father making all things subject to Him; while He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, . . .

For the true God did confess the commandment of the law as the word of God, and called no one else God besides His own Father.

Theophilus To Autolycus - Book 2 - [115 -181 AD]

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.

Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not
found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam.

The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, . . .

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation To The Heathen - [153 - 217 AD]

Well, inasmuch as the Word was from the first, He was and is the divine source of all things; but inasmuch as He has now assumed the name Christ, consecrated of old, and worthy of power, . . . This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, God and man.

He, who is in Him that truly is, has appeared; for the Word, who “was with God,” and by whom all things were created, has appeared as our Teacher. The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.

If it is thy wish, be thou also initiated; and thou shalt join the choir along with angels around the unbegotten and indestructible and the only true God, the Word of God, raising the hymn with us. This Jesus, who is eternal, the one great High Priest of the one God, and of His Father, prays for and exhorts men.

Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor [153 - 217 AD]

God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God.

Address Of Tatian To The Greeks – [110-172 AD]

God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. . . .And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission;

Chapter XXI.-Doctrines of the Christians and Greeks Respecting God Compared.

We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man.

A Plea For The Christians By Athenagoras The Athenian: [c.120- 180]

. . . But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. . . .Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?

…that they know God and His Logos, what is the oneness of the Son with the Father, what the communion of the Father with the Son, what is the Spirit, what is the unity of these three, the Spirit, the Son, the Father, and their distinction in unity; and who know 255 that the life for which we look is far better than can be described in words,

The Epistle Of Mathetes To Diognetus [c. 130 AD]

…but truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts … but the very Creator and Fashioner of all things-by whom He made the heavens-by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds-, . . This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God....​

 

[Der Alte]

Scriptures which show that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person.

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely an impersonal force or power, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is, there are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

[91]​

 

[SaintYAN]

Der Alter all your "proof texts" for the fake "deity" of Jesus have been refuted in my other thread 'Why Jesus is not the Genuine God.' No deity of Jesus equals no triune god. It's that simple.

I'll start a seperate thread for the Holy Spirit. There's no evidence that the Holy Spirit is a seperate person/being.

I was going to deal with your other thread but I noticed it is nothing but assumptions that the scripture never hints to or says. All your other post is doing is presenting the Father, the Messiah, and the Father's active presence.

You haven't proved any "triune god" from the scriptures.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter all your "proof texts" for the fake "deity" of Jesus have been refuted in my other thread 'Why Jesus is not the Genuine God.' No deity of Jesus equals no triune god. It's that simple.

I'll start a seperate thread for the Holy Spirit. There's no evidence that the Holy Spirit is a seperate person/being.

I was going to deal with your other thread but I noticed it is nothing but assumptions that the scripture never hints to or says. All your other post is doing is presenting the Father, the Messiah, and the Father's active presence.

You haven't proved any "triune god" from the scriptures.

I checked out your other thread. Nothing but a bunch of copy/pastes from some anti- website with no credible scholarship of any kind, just unsupported assumptions/presuppositions. The name YHWH is even transliterated incorrectly. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, which is supported by substantial scholarship, the correct pronunciation is Yahweh. I realize there are a lot of folks who think they know more that Jewish scholars but just saying it does not make it true.

I understand you inability to address my post, scripture by scripture with a detailed discussion of each verse. It is much easier to copy/paste someone else's discussion which does not require any independent knowledge, scholarship, or discussion And FYI I don't have discussions with links or videos.

אז תקרא ויהוה יענה תשׁוע ויאמר הנני אם־תסיר מתוכך מוטה שׁלח אצבע ודבר־און׃​

Isa58.9

 

[KCDAD]

Recall I asked you to show me evidence for any organized religious group, by any name, which believed essentially as you do, between 90 AD, and the mid-1800s when whichever anti-Trinitarian denomination you belong to came into existence.

I wonder why you would choose 90 AD as your starting point? You must be aware of the concerted effort of the Roman church to destroy any "heretics", their documents and their followers who taught what Jesus did...

"Why do you call me good? There is no one good but the Father (Creator)."
I suggest you find a mention of the deity of Jesus in HIS own words, or the trinity in HIS own words. Why would he speak of the Father and Holy Spirit (or comforter or advocate) in third person terms? Start with Mark, written nearer to the events the gospels purport to report.

 

[Der Alte]

Recall I asked you to show me evidence for any organized religious group, by any name, which believed essentially as you do, between 90 AD, and the mid-1800s when whichever anti-Trinitarian denomination you belong to came into existence.

I wonder why you would choose 90 AD as your starting point? You must be aware of the concerted effort of the Roman church to destroy any "heretics", their documents and their followers who taught what Jesus did...

I chose 90 AD because that is when the NT was completed and most of the people I have discussions with belong to religious groups which did not exist before the mid 1800s, such as JW, LDS, WWCG, OP, UU, kristadelfian, etc. Since Jesus said the gates of hell could not prevail against his church therefore there should be some historical evidence for that church during the period I specified.

"Why do you call me good? There is no one good but the Father (Creator)."
I suggest you find a mention of the deity of Jesus in HIS own words, or the trinity in HIS own words. Why would he speak of the Father and Holy Spirit (or comforter or advocate) in third person terms? Start with Mark, written nearer to the events the gospels purport to report.

All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who," and/or any other words one chooses to mention, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Scripture which identifies the Holy Spirit as God.

 

[KCDAD]

Der Alter;53701123]
2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.​

No one called the son of Mary Emmanuel, nor was that prophesy about her son. He was called Y'shua, translated into English as Joshua. That name means God will save. GOD, not the son of Mary. Oh yeah... Isaiah did not use the word VIRGIN, (Bethulah), he used ALMAH (which means young girl). So Matthew and Luke were in error when they used this prophesy about the conquering of Judah, to say something about Mary and her son.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This is not about the son of Mary, either, nor does reflect any name by which he was called.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

So you are taking the emotional outburst of a bunch of peasants in Nain as the truth about the nature of Y'shua?

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Y'shua was born in 4BC (or there abouts)


When Jesus is quoted as saying "I and my father are one", apparently they are not separate "persons" as the trinity declares. So who was Jesus praying to? Who was he telling his disciples to pray to? OR... he is using a common idiom to mean they are of one purpose... they are identical in purpose... they are on the same team.

You just can't have it both ways...

No one has seen the father, but you have seen Jesus so you have seen the father... does that strike as you as rather... well... contradictory?


​

 

[Godfixated]

Scriptures which show that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person.

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely an impersonal force or power, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is, there are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

[91]​

What's funny is that your verses quoted about the Holy Spirit either are a direct reference to God or a pronoun, "He," added by the translators where "it" could have been placed. They could have easily put "it" if it so suited the translators' religion. You run into the same problem here that one does with punctuation in the Bible. There originally was no punctuation in the old scrolls which contained the Word; thus, translators as they were translating into English and so forth could easily put a comma here and there to make a sentence say something totally different than what was originally intended.