Trinity is wrong.

[gort]

how much manure do you have to move before you acknowledge that there is
an animal that is producing it....

what do the words mean...the Lord Jehovah ---singular, your God, plural....let us, create man, in our image....plural... that we be in agreement as the father, I and the spirit are ; the baptism of John the father speaking, the son standing in the water, and the spirit descending...3 players...

deuteronomy 29.29 says it is true, how it works eludes me, but it is in God's book, his words, his spirit wrote it...must be true...

whether they are 3 separate entities or 3 facets of the same person is irrelavent...many a theologian has strived to explain the sacred mysteries....many a non believer has strived to refute...many a hammer has been worn out on God's forge...

believe, that you might understand...

Most people who argue against trinitarianism make the assumption that God can be defined only to the limits that their mind can accept or what is rational to them. REgardless of what the scriptures do speak to the subject.

I can't recall anywhere in the OT where God has defined Himself as one person or a singular facet of God. But as you've pointed out, God has explicitly spoken:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.


...which clearly shows that God has NOT defined Himself as one person or singular facet of God.

how it works eludes me, but it is in God's book, his words, his spirit wrote it...must be true...

As you say, it's in Gods book, HIs words, His Spirit wrote it...it must be true.

whether they are 3 separate entities or 3 facets of the same person is irrelavent

As God is ineffable, I might think it said there are 3 separate persons in the one facet of God; Father, Son and Spirit

 

[Der Alte]

Most people who argue against trinitarianism make the assumption that God can be defined only to the limits that their mind can accept or what is rational to them. REgardless of what the scriptures do speak to the subject.

I can't recall anywhere in the OT where God has defined Himself as one person or a singular facet of God. But as you've pointed out, God has explicitly spoken:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

...which clearly shows that God has NOT defined Himself as one person or singular facet of God.

As you say, it's in Gods book, HIs words, His Spirit wrote it...it must be true.

As God is ineffable, I might think it said there are 3 separate persons in the one facet of God; Father, Son and Spirit

They seem to not be familiar with these two passages of scripture.

Isa 55:8-9
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts [higher] than your thoughts.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,​

 

[Jpark]

Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

God's presence is the same as His Spirit.

Luke 5:17 And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.

The power of the Lord is equivalent to "the Spirit of the Lord" (Luke 4:18).

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.

In Job 32:8 Elihu declares that a person's understanding is not due to his age or station in life, but rather is a result of the operation of the Spirit of God. The Spirit then is the Author of wisdom, endowing one with the capacity to know and making sense out of life for him.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Isaiah 43:7 Everyone who is called by My name, whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him."

The Spirit of God is also the Source of life itself. Elihu states that his own existence witnesses to the life-giving power of the Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of life.

Job 34:14-15 If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

Psalm 90:3 You turn man to destruction, and say, "Return, O children of men."

Because the Spirit gives life and wisdom to man, He is also essential to the very continuation of the human race. If God should turn His attention elsewhere, if He should withdraw His life-giving Spirit from this world, then human history would come to an end.

Thus the Holy Spirit in the Book of Job is the Creator and Sustainer of life, and He gives meaning and rationality to life.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

"Let us" in Genesis has nothing to do with God being three persons, all you are doing is assuming.

Most people who argue against trinitarianism make the assumption that God can be defined only to the limits that their mind can accept or what is rational to them. REgardless of what the scriptures do speak to the subject.

I can't recall anywhere in the OT where God has defined Himself as one person or a singular facet of God. But as you've pointed out, God has explicitly spoken:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.


...which clearly shows that God has NOT defined Himself as one person or singular facet of God.





As you say, it's in Gods book, HIs words, His Spirit wrote it...it must be true.





As God is ineffable, I might think it said there are 3 separate persons in the one facet of God; Father, Son and Spirit

 

[Der Alte]

Let us has nothing to do with God being three persons, all you are doing is assuming.

If this is your best argument you aren't going to convince anyone.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

No…

The “us” is Elohim has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity but is one of but comes from one of the many names of God; this word is used all though out the Bible.

It spelling or interpreted in scripture and Elohim is spelled both “god” and “God”.

There is no mention of the word trinity in the word Elohim;

The name of God “Elohim” The only name used in the first chapter of Genesis, is GOD, or Elohim. the Hebrew, means "to swear." It describes One who stands i n a covenant-relationship ratified by an oath.


"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . . " Gen. 1:26. This was God’s covenant with man. This was His purpose for making man — to have a visible expression of Himself!" God made covenant it was not dependent upon man’s keeping any part. It was strictly made on God’s part —an act of His will.

When He assures us that He will be "our God" (Isa.40:1), He means: "For this is the covenant . . . I will put my laws into their minds, and in their heart will I write them; and I will be unto them a God and they shall be to Me a people" Heb. 8:10. God has sworn — pledging His Word both for Himself and for His creation. God promises for both parts — saying "I will" and "I shall." He loves, first of all, in virtue of relationship, which does not even consider our sinful condition. "For while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.
Look a little deeper at Ps. 82 and notice how the word Elohim was used with both a capital G and lower case; same word same meaning both Strong’s 430 and this has happen all thought out the KJV and who know what other translation.

Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.



Son: Heb. OT:1121

ben (bane); from OT:1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., [like OT:1, OT:251, etc.]):

God:

OT:430

elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:

If this is your best argument you aren't going to convince anyone.

 

[Der Alte]

Elohim us
No…

The “us” is Elohim has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity but is one of but comes from one of the many names of God; this word is used all though out the Bible.

An unsupported assumption. Anybody can do this about what they believe. Saying something is this or that does not prove that it is.

It spelling or interpreted in scripture and Elohim is spelled both “god” and “God”.

Correct but that doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

There is no mention of the word trinity in the word Elohim;

Nobody said there is. But there is no mention of Bible in the Bible.

The name of God “Elohim” The only name used in the first chapter of Genesis, is GOD, or Elohim. the Hebrew, means "to swear." It describes One who stands i n a covenant-relationship ratified by an oath.

This is totally false. You posted the definition of Elohim below. Here it is. "To swear" is NOT one of the meanings.

God: OT:430

elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:​

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . . " Gen. 1:26. This was God’s covenant with man. This was His purpose for making man — to have a visible expression of Himself!" God made covenant it was not dependent upon man’s keeping any part. It was strictly made on God’s part —an act of His will.

Everything in red is assumption/presupposition, NOT supported by scripture.

When He assures us that He will be "our God" (Isa.40:1), He means: "For this is the covenant . . . I will put my laws into their minds, and in their heart will I write them; and I will be unto them a God and they shall be to Me a people" Heb. 8:10. God has sworn — pledging His Word both for Himself and for His creation. God promises for both parts — saying "I will" and "I shall." He loves, first of all, in virtue of relationship, which does not even consider our sinful condition. "For while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Highlighted in red is more speculation. The rest is prooftexting random scripture together to make it support your assumptions/presuppositions.

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.

More unsupported assumptions/presuppositions. You have not shown how the names are relevant to any discussion.

Look a little deeper at Ps. 82 and notice how the word Elohim was used with both a capital G and lower case; same word same meaning both Strong’s 430 and this has happen all thought out the KJV and who know what other translation.

The use of the capital or lower case G was the choice of the KJV translators to distinguish between elohim referring to the creator and the corrupt judges. Elohim in Hebrew is always written the same.

Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Son: Heb. OT:1121

ben (bane); from OT:1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., [like OT:1, OT:251, etc.]):

God:

OT:430

elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:

 

[gort]

"Let us" in Genesis has nothing to do with God being three persons, all you are doing is assuming.

I recall I made the point that scripture clearly shows that God has NOT defined Himself as one person or singular facet of God.

It is far more than assuming, would'nt you agree?

 

[Spartan Warrior]

God is one. That does not mean He does not have many natures. No God is not three persons or two.

I recall I made the point that scripture clearly shows that God has NOT defined Himself as one person or singular facet of God.

It is far more than assuming, would'nt you agree?

 

[Spartan Warrior]

and you should talk.

An unsupported assumption. Anybody can do this about what they believe. Saying something is this or that does not prove that it is.


Correct but that doesn't prove anything one way or the other.



Nobody said there is. But there is no mention of Bible in the Bible.



This is totally false. You posted the definition of Elohim below. Here it is. "To swear" is NOT one of the meanings.

God: OT:430
​

elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:
​

Everything in red is assumption/presupposition, NOT supported by scripture.



Highlighted in red is more speculation. The rest is prooftexting random scripture together to make it support your assumptions/presuppositions.



More unsupported assumptions/presuppositions. You have not shown how the names are relevant to any discussion.



The use of the capital or lower case G was the choice of the KJV translators to distinguish between elohim referring to the creator and the corrupt judges. Elohim in Hebrew is always written the same.

 

[gort]

God is one. That does not mean He does not have many natures. No God is not three persons or two.

By the use of US and OUR (image, note singular use of image) it would appear more palatable to think that there are at least 2 persons involved at minimum rather than to think there are "different natures" of God being referenced here.

But if you insist, which 2 or more natures of God would be speaking about making man in our image?

 

[Spartan Warrior]

A name is a nature, a character an authority, Elohim is a name.

By the use of US and OUR (image, note singular use of image) it would appear more palatable to think that there are at least 2 persons involved at minimum rather than to think there are "different natures" of God being referenced here.

But if you insist, which 2 or more natures of God would be speaking about making man in our image?

 

[gort]

A name is a nature, a character an authority, Elohim is a name.

And Elohim denotes plurality of God/. How many Gods could have created man?

 

[Jpark]

One God is one Spirit. God is Spirit; God's form is Spirit (John 4:24). One living God is one living Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7311880-55/#post53550470

The Holy Spirit is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.

Ephesians 1:17 says that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him

The Holy Spirit is the presence of God, the Spirit of God

2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence [literally, "the Face"] of the Lord and from the glory of His power

Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?

The Holy Spirit is the presence of God, the breath of God, the Spirit of God, and the Creator.

Psalm 104:29-30 You hide Your face, they are troubled (Psalm 51:11); You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust (Job 34:14-15; Psalm 90:3). You send forth Your Spirit, they are created (Job 33:4); and You renew the face of the earth (Titus 3:5; John 6:63).

The Holy Spirit is the life-giving Spirit.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.

Isaiah 43:7 Everyone who is called by My name, whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him."

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

The Holy Spirit is God.

 

[Jpark]

3 beings are one being is invalid to everyone, even trinitarians. That is why they avoid explaining how trinity does not mean that. Think not? just ask any trinitarian if god the father is a being, is god the son a being, is god the holy spirit a being is god a being? they won't answer it yes or no, just some evasive answer to get around it because they would have to admit that either trinity is the contradiction of 3 beings are one being or they are going to have to admit that eithr the persons of g od do not exist or god does not exist by either denying that say god the father is a being, or denying that god is a being. so it condmens trinity as being false.

Yes, Trinity is wrong. Or more precisely, the established definition of Trinity is wrong.

Trinity definition - Dictionary - MSN Encarta

Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

God does not exist in three forms, three beings, or three persons. This is blasphemy.

How can God be in three forms when God's form is Spirit (John 4:24; Deuteronomy 4:12; 2 Chronicles 6:18; 1 Kings 19:12)?

Even Jesus was in the form of God. (Philippians 2:6)

Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Yes, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God (Psalm 51:11; Psalm 139:7) and is a Spirit.

Trinity needs to be redefined.

God is a Spirit.

 

[hybrid]

there is no need to redefine trinity. the only thing that stops people in general in understanding Trinity is a core belief that God is an individual person (Anthropomorphism) set apart from the rest of his creation. such a view is utterly inconsistent with an infinite being.

God is not an individual person. individuality implies finity and limitations. god is unbounded and unlimited in nature. god is the totality of all, personal or none personal, local and universal.

if a simple substance of water can form an ocean and by its movements form waves , why can that be for god? if spirit can have forms, would the forms be less than spirit?

God as an essential substance called spirit is simple and undivided.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_simplicity

 

[Jpark]

there is no need to redefine trinity. the only thing that stops people in general in understanding Trinity is a core belief that God is an individual person (Anthropomorphism) set apart from the rest of his creation. such a view is utterly inconsistent with an infinite being.

God is not an individual person. individuality implies finity and limitations. god is unbounded and unlimited in nature. god is the totality of all, personal or none personal, local and universal.

if a simple substance of water can form an ocean and by its movements form waves , why can that be for god? if spirit can have forms, would the forms be less than spirit?

God as an essential substance called spirit is simple and undivided.

Divine simplicity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no need for the currently established doctrine of Trinity in Christianity.

Inerrancy of this Trinity doctrine is evident in that not many people can understand it. How can God be in three forms, yet one? It doesn't make any sense.

God is one being, a Spirit in form, not three.

It is a simple doctrine:

God is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God (Psalm 51:11; Psalm 139:7). Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit, manifested in the flesh (Philippians 2:6), bodily resurrected (Luke 24:39), bodily received up in glory (Acts 1:9), and will return bodily, literally (Acts 1:11).

God in essence is Spirit. God's form is Spirit. God is the Holy Spirit.

Before God, there was no God formed (Isaiah 43:10), but Jesus was God, the Holy Spirit, in the beginning. And after He was received up in glory, is God, the Holy Spirit.

Trinity needs to be redefined.

By looking for a direct operational Spirit it is easy to deny that Christ as God was manifest in the flesh and justified in the Spirit. He is the Triune God acknowledged before Neo-trinitarianism which sees three separate persons or members of the "god clan."

That is, God was Thought, Word and Breath or Spirit. Jesus of Nazareth was a human "body prepared for me" Hebrews 10:5. This is the very common way the theologians who used "trinity" understood the ONE God. He is never represented as THEY and they never see one of the "personae" separated from the Godhead into another BEING.

http://www.piney.com/HsComPau.html

What I see now is God being split into three distinct, separate persons, three beings, three forms with distinct functions, personality, purposes. God is not three beings. God is one being with one function, one personality, and one purpose.

This is the true doctrine.

That the purposes of God, and of Jesus, and of the Holy Spirit was for the glory of God (Ezekiel 38:23; Ezekiel 39:13). That the function of God, and of Jesus, and of the Holy Spirit was for the salvation of mankind. That the personality of God, and of Jesus, and of the Holy Spirit is zealous for holiness (Deuteronomy 4:24; Mark 15:34; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8).

 

[hybrid]

Inerrancy of this Trinity doctrine is evident in that not many people can understand it. How can God be in three forms, yet one? It doesn't make any sense.

at night when you looked at the pool, you see the reflection of the moon. as much a many poosl you looked you'll see the same reflection of the moon, does this mean there are many moons? no, we know there is only one moon.

what about the reflections of the moon in the pool itself? do we say there are many reflections of the moon or we think that the reflections in all the pool is the one and the same reflection? is it both or neither?

you see the problem to mentally understand is purely a problem of semantics.

 

[Jpark]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is the problem. Many people are actually ordinary people.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

God is the Holy Spirit for only God knows the things of God.

Compare the unity of God to the unity of man made in His image: man is comprised of spirit, soul, and body. Man is not three "beings", but "one being" with physical, emotional, and spiritual elements.

Yet God is not three beings, but one being with physical (Jesus) and spiritual (Holy Spirit) elements.

God has no soul. God is Spirit.

A spirit has no soul.

Unlike man angels don’t have the capacity to love because angels have no soul. Angels are spirit and body, not soul. Angels have no emotions. Angels are not capable of loving anybody just like they do not take tea and play with your dog. Angels cannot receive revelation too.

Robert Kayanja Ministries - benny hinn fire conf

 

[Godfixated]

And Elohim denotes plurality of God/. How many Gods could have created man?

I'm curious, could you name any examples of this or are you just going make us go find it?