Trinity Facts

[CherubRam]

Doesn't really address my post in any way does it?

For what ever the reason, you just do not see or hear what I am saying.

 

[BelCantoBaptist]

My understanding is that the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father and not another person.
Being "one" is all about unity. A husband and wife are "one." We are also called to be "one" with the Father in the body of Christ.

So in answer to my question, it looks like you hold that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are "forms" or "modes" of God?

 

[stan1953]

My understanding is that the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father and not another person.
Being "one" is all about unity. A husband and wife are "one." We are also called to be "one" with the Father in the body of Christ.

Then you understanding wrong. The Holy Spirit is God just as Jesus is God and just as the Father is God. One tripartite God.

 

[2ducklow]

My understanding is that the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father and not another person.
Being "one" is all about unity. A husband and wife are "one." We are also called to be "one" with the Father in the body of Christ.

The bible says that God is spirit or a spirit, and the bible also says that God is holy. the bible says also that God the father is the one and only true or real God. Thus I derive, as does my church, from the above statements of scripture that God the Father is Holy Spirit, and since there is only one Holy Spirit, God the Father would have to be the Holy Spirit. To say that God manifests himself as the Holy Spirit is not really that much different than my saying that God personifies his spirit in scripture, in my opinion.
I assume you mean by your oneness statements that you mean that Jesus and the Father are one in the same way that the church and Jesus are to be one. Not that the Father and the holy spirit are one the same way that Jesus and the church are one, because that would contradict your statement that the Holy spirit is a manifestation of God.

 

[CherubRam]

The bible says that God is spirit or a spirit, and the bible also says that God is holy. the bible says also that God the father is the one and only true or real God. Thus I derive, as does my church, from the above statements of scripture that God the Father is Holy Spirit, and since there is only one Holy Spirit, God the Father would have to be the Holy Spirit. To say that God manifests himself as the Holy Spirit is not really that much different than my saying that God personifies his spirit in scripture, in my opinion.
I assume you mean by your oneness statements that you mean that Jesus and the Father are one in the same way that the church and Jesus are to be one. Not that the Father and the holy spirit are one the same way that Jesus and the church are one, because that would contradict your statement that the Holy spirit is a manifestation of God.

Basically that is what I am saying. Yahshua is "a god" from the kingdom of heaven, sent by the Father. A body was prepared for Peniel and placed in Mary's womb. He was born into this world and named Yahshua. Peniel was the messenger of Yahuah. God has only one personal name, and that is Yahuah, as written in the scriptures. He has many name titles, Holy Spirit being one of His name titles. Trinitarianism has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Trintarianism was introduced into scriptures by the Catholic Church.

 

[CherubRam]

So in answer to my question, it looks like you hold that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are "forms" or "modes" of God?

Yahuah and Yahshua are separate persons, they, and we, are called to be one. That is, one in unity.

 

[CherubRam]

Then you understanding wrong. The Holy Spirit is God just as Jesus is God and just as the Father is God. One tripartite God.

There is only one true God. The people who have or will have life immortal are also called gods. Trinitarianism is a Pagan belief, it has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Scriptures were altered by the Catholic Church to make it appear as if Trinitarianism is a biblical truth.

 

[2ducklow]

Basically that is what I am saying. Yahshua is "a god" from the kingdom of heaven, sent by the Father. A body was prepared for Peniel and placed in Mary's womb. He was born into this world and named Yahshua. Peniel was the messenger of Yahuah. God has only one personal name, and that is Yahuah, as written in the scriptures. He has many name titles, Holy Spirit being one of His name titles. Trinitarianism has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Trintarianism was introduced into scriptures by the Catholic Church.

I believe, as does my church, that Jesus is a product of new human male seed that God used to fertilize Mary's egg with, thus making Jesus literally the new man, or last adam.

Jer. 31.22 is interpreted by some, not just my church, to be a messianic prophesy referring to the virgin birth.

KJV) Jeremiah 31:22
22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter?
for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth,
A woman shall compass a man.

The new thing God created, after he created adam and eve and the world, was new human male seed or by extension, the man Christ Jesus. A woman refers to Mary, and compassing a man refers to her conceiving without a man.
Thus this interpretation makes every statement about Jesus being begotten by God literal.

As to the part about Jesus coming down from heaven, I take that figuratively because it refers to the word of god that came down from heaven and Jesus being the exact fulfillment of God's word or plan for man.

I've heard the term peniel before but I forget it's meaning.

I think we are pretty much in total accord on the subject of trinity.

 

[BelCantoBaptist]

Yahuah and Yahshua are separate persons, they, and we, are called to be one. That is, one in unity.

Two separate Gods is polytheism. Your one in unity idea sounds more like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon belief or even somewhat Unitarian.

 

[Albion]

Trinitarianism is a Pagan belief, it has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism.

Neither has polytheism, CherubRam.

 

[stan1953]

There is only one true God. The people who have or will have life immortal are also called gods. Trinitarianism is a Pagan belief, it has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Scriptures were altered by the Catholic Church to make it appear as if Trinitarianism is a biblical truth.

You have not supported your POV, and as a Messianic believer you should accept what the OT says.

[FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]Is 9:6[/FONT]
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Der Alte]

There is only one true God. The people who have or will have life immortal are also called gods.

Wrong! Psalm 82:6 is addressed only to the corrupt judges of Israel, not all mankind. And even they were not gods in any sense. Gods don't die like men.

Trinitarianism is a Pagan belief, it has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Scriptures were altered by the Catholic Church to make it appear as if Trinitarianism is a biblical truth.

There is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence that scriptures were changed to promote Trinitarianism or anything else.

There was never a clearly defined Trinity in any society which could have influenced early Christianity. There was not even a clearly defined Triad. Just because some anonymous person might say different does not make it true.

 

[CherubRam]

You have not supported your POV, and as a Messianic believer you should accept what the OT says.

[FONT=Verdana","sans-serif]Is 9:6[/FONT]
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEAD-ER-S-ING).

The Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).
And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words.

The word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Lead-er-s-ing.

The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “leader.” And the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6 is "leading, or, minister."

The other alternate Hebrew words for PRINCE are these.
5592. NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times. / 5618. NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times. / 5687. NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times. / 5817. NASIYK (PRINCE-S). 3 times.

You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".

In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD.

In our different bibles, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.


Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is how that verse should read below.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, ministering in Peace. ( Or, leading in peace.


If you run that Hebrew word through a Hebrew to English translator is will read “minister.”

 

[CherubRam]

Wrong! Psalm 82:6 is addressed only to the corrupt judges of Israel, not all mankind. And even they were not gods in any sense. Gods don't die like men.



There is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence that scriptures were changed to promote Trinitarianism or anything else.

There was never a clearly defined Trinity in any society which could have influenced early Christianity. There was not even a clearly defined Triad. Just because some anonymous person might say different does not make it true.

I'm starting to suspect that you do not read anything I write. Christian Forum

 

[ChetSinger]

Hello. The divinity of the Word of YHWH was a Jewish idea that predated Christianity. When John wrote "and the Word became flesh and lived among us", that phrase alone declared that the appearance of Jesus was an appearance of the Divine.

 

[Der Alte]

...This is how that verse should read below.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, ministering in Peace. ( Or, leading in peace.

If you run that Hebrew word through a Hebrew to English translator is will read “minister.”

Here is how Isaiah 9:6 was translated by Hebrew speaking scholars in the Targum, the Aramaic translation of the OT.

Isaiah 9:6 His name is called from eternity, Wonderful, The Mighty God, who liveth to eternity, Wonderful, The Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days.
7. The greatness of those who do the law shall be magnified, and those, that preserve peace. There shall be no end to the throne of David, and of his kingdom, to establish it and to build it in judgment and in righteousness from henceforth, even for ever. By the Word of the Lord of hosts this shall be done.

The Chaldee Paraprase The Prophet Isaiah, Translated By Rev. C. W. H. Pauli, London Society's House, 1871​

 

[stan1953]

This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEAD-ER-S-ING).

The Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).
And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words.

The word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Lead-er-s-ing.

The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “leader.” And the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6 is "leading, or, minister."

The other alternate Hebrew words for PRINCE are these.
5592. NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times. / 5618. NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times. / 5687. NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times. / 5817. NASIYK (PRINCE-S). 3 times.

You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".

In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD.

In our different bibles, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.


Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is how that verse should read below.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, ministering in Peace. ( Or, leading in peace.


If you run that Hebrew word through a Hebrew to English translator is will read “minister.”

I'm a person who believes the credentialed scholars KNOW what they are doing when translating. What you've simply done is select one of the connotations that suits your POV, rather than what suits the context of the verse.
B-D-B shows the following;

prince, ruler, leader, chief, chieftain, official, captain

1. chieftain, leader
2. vassal, noble, official (under king)
3. captain, general, commander (military)
4. chief, head, overseer (of other official classes)
5. heads, princes (of religious office)
6. elders (of representative leaders of people)
7. merchant-princes (of rank and dignity)
8. patron-angel
9. Ruler of rulers (of God)
10. warden

As the following link shows, the five most reliable and modern English translations don't agree with your summation.
Is 9:6 NASB;HCSB;NIV;NET;NRSV - For a child will be born to us, a son - Bible Gateway

I think the more salient point is that Jesus was also Mighty God AND Everlasting Father so your equivocation of Prince is not really of any value.
Besides, in the context of this verse nobody is CALLED ministering in peace.

 

[CherubRam]

Here is how Isaiah 9:6 was translated by Hebrew speaking scholars in the Targum, the Aramaic translation of the OT.

Isaiah 9:6 His name is called from eternity, Wonderful, The Mighty God, who liveth to eternity, Wonderful, The Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days.
7. The greatness of those who do the law shall be magnified, and those, that preserve peace. There shall be no end to the throne of David, and of his kingdom, to establish it and to build it in judgment and in righteousness from henceforth, even for ever. By the Word of the Lord of hosts this shall be done.

The Chaldee Paraprase The Prophet Isaiah, Translated By Rev. C. W. H. Pauli, London Society's House, 1871​

A "PARAPHRASE" is not a true translation.

 

[CherubRam]

Hello. The divinity of the Word of YHWH was a Jewish idea that predated Christianity. When John wrote "and the Word became flesh and lived among us", that phrase alone declared that the appearance of Jesus was an appearance of the Divine.

Christ name is not Yahuah: Now or ever.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm starting to suspect that you do not read anything I write. Christian Forum

Oh I read but this post as with others you ignore virtually evything I post and complain that I don't read your posts. I usually don't follow links unless something is quoted from it. I note that at this link is the usual copy/paste from some atheists-я-us.com clone with the same ol' lame ol' halftruths, out-of-context, misrepresented stuff and even out and out prevarications. For example the Matt 28:19 Eusebius fakery.

Eusebius uses a form of Mt 28:19, 29 times and cites it in three different forms:

Form 1: " Go ye and make disciples of all nations " (7 times)
Form 2: "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name" (17 times)
Form 3: The traditional Triadic form (5 times) in The Theophania, The Theology of the Church, Contra Marcellum 2x, and Letter to Caesarea.

In the Theopania, Eusebius uses all three forms, in the Theology of the church Eusebius uses both forms 1 and 3, the traditional Triadic form.

In his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/TC-Matthew.pdf​

Eusebius' Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine was written 338 AD, 13 years after the Council of Nicaea.