Trinity Facts

Phantasman

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Trinitarianism only makes sense to Trinitarians, there's no point arguing with them.

Agreed. I mention monad and I get a false answer rather than the philisophical one.

You either believe the Father had no beginning and the others were "of the Father" (begotten from him) or you don't. At one single point there was nothing but the Father. He has no beginning or end. In the BEGINNING was the Word.

If there is a Trinity, God made it. He needs nothing (to make him complete).

Just my image of him.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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People were not baptized using the trinity formula, not until after the Catholic Church declared the Holy Spirit a third person.

The early church didn't recognize the Holy Spirit as a god-person, so this did come much later.
 
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Albion

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The early church didn't recognize the Holy Spirit as a god-person, so this did come much later.

We know for a fact that baptism in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost was routine by ca. 100 and perhaps as early as AD 70, so it has nothing to do with the Council of Constantinople or Constantine or any of that.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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We know for a fact that baptism in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost was routine by ca. 100 and perhaps as early as AD 70, so it has nothing to do with the Council of Constantinople or Constantine or any of that.

The church that emerged at the end of the first century would have been barely recognizable to the disciples. It was a mysterious period of 'wondrous' changes within the church (so say many historians).
 
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Albion

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The church that emerged at the end of the first century would have been barely recognizable to the disciples. It was a mysterious period of 'wondrous' changes within the church (so say many historians).

Perhaps. My point was that if there was a change in the Baptismal formula, it didn't occur at a later time. It had to have occurred in the first century. Naturally, we are all in the same boat when it comes to knowing the details of everyday church life in the first generation or two of church history.

And BTW, the definition of the nature of the Holy Spirit as given in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed does not have anything directly to do with the wording of the Baptismal formula.
 
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Der Alte

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The early church didn't recognize the Holy Spirit as a god-person, so this did come much later.

Justin recognized that the Holy Spirit was a person in the early 2nd century. cf. chapter XXXVI

Justin according to Justin

Click link, to Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho; (ca. 150 a.d.) [110-165 AD]

  1. XI "There will be no other God, He alone is God who led your fathers out from Egypt, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob.
  2. CXVOur Priest, who is God, and Christ the Son of God.
  3. CXXV Christ is called God, He is God and Appeared to the Patriarchs.
  4. He became man was foretold by the mystery of Jacob's wrestling with Him who appeared to him, in that He ministered to the will of the Father, yet nevertheless is God, in that He is the first-begotten of all creatures.
  5. Chapter CXXVI.-The Various Names of Christ According to Both Natures. It is Shown that He is God, and Appeared to the Patriarchs.
  6. CXXVIII The Word is Sent Not as an Inanimate Power, But as a Person Begotten of the Father's Substance.
  7. CXXVI He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God indivisible and inseparable from the Father.
  8. CXXVIII Begotten from the Father but not by abscission (cutting off).
  9. LXII When God said, “Let Us make”, God conversed with some one who was numerically distinct from Himself, and also a rational Being.
  10. LXII (In Gen 1), there are persons associated with one another, and that they are at least two.
  11. LXII This Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with Him.
  12. LXIII (God speaking of the Son,) “Your holiness have I begotten Thee from the womb, before the morning star.”
  13. LXIII (God calls the Son, God,) “Thy throne, O God is forever,”
  14. LXIII (God calls the Son, God,) “Therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness.”
  15. LXIII (Jesus), Deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ
  16. Chapter LXXV.-It is Proved that Jesus Was the Name of God in the Book of Exodus.
  17. Chapter LXXXV.-He Proves that Christ is the Lord of Hosts from Ps. XXIV., and from His Authority Over Demons.
  18. LV The true God, God who made all things, is Lord alone.
  19. Chapter LXVI.-He Proves from Isaiah that God Was Born from a Virgin.
  20. XXXII The Lord is called the Christ by the Holy Spirit, Our Lord Jesus Christ.
  21. XXXVI Who is this King of glory? 'And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, `The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.'
 
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CherubRam

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We know for a fact that baptism in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost was routine by ca. 100 and perhaps as early as AD 70, so it has nothing to do with the Council of Constantinople or Constantine or any of that.

It is my understanding that there is no record of a trinity formula baptism, not until some time after the passing of the disciples. Produce your so called facts, so that we may see that you are right.
 
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CherubRam

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OK, let's back up a bit. Can we agree that one of the titles given to Jesus in the NT is "the Word of God"?

Christ "BECAME" the word of God by being God's servant. Therefore, what ever Christ says, that is to be viewed as God speaking through him.
 
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Albion

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It is my understanding that there is no record of a trinity formula baptism, not until some time after the passing of the disciples. Produce your so called facts, so that we may see that you are right.

Passing of "the disciples?" That would place it about...where? It seems to me that if you had read my post closely you'd be agreeing that there is no disagreement between us on this score.

You wrote this: "People were not baptized using the trinity formula, not until after the Catholic Church declared the Holy Spirit a third person."

That is not very specific as concerns dates, but it appears that you meant to say that the Trinitarian formula did come into use prior to the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople which fashioned the Creed that is famously associated with the doctrine of the Trinity. If so, that's wrong. We do have ample evidence that baptisms were performed in the name of the F, S, and HG from sometime in the first century.
 
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CherubRam

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I think you just like to waste my time.

Baptized in the name

Matthew 28:19
“Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name

Luke 24:47
and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:16
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 19:5
On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Romans 6:3
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

1 Corinthians 1
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.


People were not baptized using the trinity formula, not until after the Catholic Church declared the Holy Spirit a third person.

Bump.
 
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2ducklow

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Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Vol. 3, Page 365-366. The baptismal formula was changed from the Name of Jesus Christ to the words "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" by the Catholic Church in the second century.

Britannica Encyclopedia,Vol. 3, Page 82. Everywhere in the oldest sources it states that baptism took place in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Canney Encyclopedia Of Religion, Page 53. The early Church always baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus until development of trinity doctrine in the second century.

Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 2, Page 263. Here the Catholics acknowledged that baptism was changed by the Catholic Church in the second century.

Hastings Encyclopedia Of Religion, Vol. 2. Page 377. Christian baptism was administered using the words, "In the Name of Jesus." Page 378, the use of a trinitarian formula of any sort was not suggested in early church history. Page 389, baptism was always in the Name of the Lord Jesus until the time of Justin Martyr when a triune formula started.

Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 8. Justin martyr was one of the early fathers of the Roman Catholic Church.

Hastings Encyclopedia Of Religion, Vol. 2, Page 377, Acts 2:38. Name was an ancient synonym for "person." Payment was always made in name of some person referring to ownership. Therefore one being baptized in Jesus' Name became His personal property. "Ye are Christ's."

New International Encyclopedia, Vol. 22, Page 477. The term "trinity" was originated by Tertullian, a Roman Catholic Church father.

Catholics Put Jesus Out In 325 A.D. The Name of Jesus Christ was removed from water baptism at the Nicene Council in Rome, 325 A.D., when backslidden Christianity amalgamated with pagan Rome and formed the Roman Catholic Church and added a trinity of gods, and started using titles of "Father, Son, Holy Ghost." Catholic daughters, protestant churches, continued baptizing like Catholics, but contrary to what Jesus, Peter and the early Church did for 325 years.
Water Baptism
here's some info. go to the history button. So it is evident that not all scholars believe baptism in the triadic formula was an early practice of the church. obviously there must be some evidence against it.
 
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CherubRam

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Passing of "the disciples?" That would place it about...where? It seems to me that if you had read my post closely you'd be agreeing that there is no disagreement between us on this score.

You wrote this: "People were not baptized using the trinity formula, not until after the Catholic Church declared the Holy Spirit a third person."

That is not very specific as concerns dates, but it appears that you meant to say that the Trinitarian formula did come into use prior to the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople which fashioned the Creed that is famously associated with the doctrine of the Trinity. If so, that's wrong. We do have ample evidence that baptisms were performed in the name of the F, S, and HG from sometime in the first century.

There were Gnostics who used the trinity formula, perhaps even before the passing of the disciples. The Trinity formula was not popularized until after the Holy Spirit was declared a third person. Is that better?
 
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Albion

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There were Gnostics who used the trinity formula, perhaps even before the passing of the disciples.
Whether or not they did, it's the mainline church that we are discussing.

The Trinity formula was not popularized until after the Holy Spirit was declared a third person. Is that better?
It's still demonstrably false...unless you want to say, by use of the word "popularized" that the triune invocation was unusual before the fourth century or confined to the Gnostics. I would that this is not the intent because you cannot show that to be true.

Rather than spar, let me be even more explicit.

All the evidence is that both methods were in use from the Apostolic Age forward; in time baptisms performed in the name of Jesus only ceased. Again, this question about forumlas does not have anything directly to do with the official doctrine of the Trinity.
 
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CherubRam

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Whether or not they did, it's the mainline church that we are discussing.


It's still demonstrably false...unless you want to say, by use of the word "popularized" that the triune invocation was unusual before the fourth century or confined to the Gnostics. I would that this is not the intent because you cannot show that to be true.

:doh: I'm taking a break. Anyone want to show him the history?
 
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2ducklow

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I don't think anyone of us in here can prove conclusively either side of the issue. It boils down to which sources one believes. And it also depends on which ones make the most logical sense, which in turn depends on what one's doctrine is. If one is a trinitairan 3 are one makes perfect logical sense, if one isn't Trinitarian 3 are one is the pinnacle of illogic. What we need is some video cam recording of early baptisms, that would totally resolve the argument.
 
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Der Alte

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There were Gnostics who used the trinity formula, perhaps even before the passing of the disciples. The Trinity formula was not popularized until after the Holy Spirit was declared a third person. Is that better?

Please note the dates in these ECF citations of Matt 28:19 with the Triadic formula and the number of years before Nicaea.

To verify citations, [ECF Link]

1. Ignatius – The Epistle to the Philadelphians [30-107 a.d.], [a disciple of John.] [218 + years before Nicaea]

Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better

"Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
" All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another.

2. Irenaeus – Against Heresies Book III [a.d. 120-202.], [a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.] [123 + years before Nicaea]

That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."308 And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God,309 He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "

3. Justin – 1st Apology Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. [110-165 a.d. ][ca. 175 years before Nicaea]


Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127

4. Tertullian – The Prescription Against Heretics.1 [a.d. 145-220] [105 + years before Nicaea]

Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost." 203

4a. Tertullian – On Baptism. [105 + years before Nicaea]

For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

5. The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. – Part II. – Dogmatical and Historical. (c.170-c.236). [89 + years before Nicaea]

The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy (disposition) and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.

6. Cyprian – Treatise XII.1 – Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews. [c.200-258][67 + years before Nicaea]

And He laid His right hand upon me, and said, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and He that liveth and was dead; and, lo, I am living for evermore289 and I have the keys of death and of hell."290 Likewise in the Gospel, the Lord after His resurrection says to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

7. Origen – de Principiis Book I [c.185-c.254] [71+ years before Nicaea]


From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.

8. The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. –
Chapter VII. – Concerning Baptism. [120 AD][205 years before Nicaea]


1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,75 in living water.76 2. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou3canst not in cold, in warm. 3. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice77 upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the 4 baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

9. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles – Book II. Of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. [Late 2d to early 3d century] [100 + years before Nicaea]

Let the presbyters be esteemed by you to represent us the apostles, and let them be the teachers of divine knowledge; since our Lord, when He sent us, said, "Go ye, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

10. Life and Conduct of the Holy Women Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca [mid 3d century] [75 years before Nicaea]

XIV.
Therefore the great Paul straightway taking her hand, went into the house of Philotheus, and baptised her in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost.

11. Tatian – The Diatessaron [ca. 175] [150 years before Nicaea]

Then said Jesus unto them, I have been given all authority in heaven 5 and earth; and as my Father hath sent me, so I also send you. Go now into [sup]6[/sup] all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world.

At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256 [69 years before Nicaea], a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, 'Go ye, lay on hands in My name, expel demons.' And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'" Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19. Despite attempts by some interpreters to connect the first quotation to Matthew 10:8, the references to going, laying on hands, expelling demons, and doing so in My name add up to a reference to Mark 16:15- 18, especially when placed side-by-side with the parallel passage from Matthew

Seventh Council of Carthage - Concerning the Baptism of Heretics. The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics. 256 a.d. [69 years before Nicaea]

12.
Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt should have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out of doors, and to be trodden under foot of men." And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

13.
Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother6 the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

14.
Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

15.
Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons." And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."​
 
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Baptized in the name
. . .
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
...
Acts 8:16
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 19:5
On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
. . .
People were not baptized using the trinity formula, not until after the Catholic Church declared the Holy Spirit a third person.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Baptism is mentioned 37 times from Acts to Revelation. Of those only 5 occurrences use the phrase "in the name of." All listed above. There are four different "formulas" given, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," Matt 28;19. in the name of Jesus Christ," Ac 2:38, 10:48, "in the name of the Lord" Ac 10:48, "in the name of the Lord Jesus" Ac 8:16, 19:5.

So of these three different formulas, which is the correct one?

Having said this, none of these verses describe a baptism as they are being conducted, where the person being baptized enters the water, is baptized and the person comes up out of the water. They all either speak of a completed baptism or are a command to be baptized. There are only two baptisms recorded as they are being conducted. The baptism of Jesus and the baptism of the Ethiopian official in Acts 8:38. Neither of these baptisms record any words being spoken. So according to the views being presented here Peter disobeyed Jesus because he did not baptize using "in the name of Jesus."
 
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