Trinity Facts

[CherubRam]

Facts about Trinitarianism. Link to subject removed.

 

[Albion]

I think we need to also consider the New Testament's description of the Holy Ghost as a person, Christ's description of himself as not the Father in the flesh, and the point that almost all of us accept--the Oneness of God Almighty. Leaving all development of doctrine and baptismal forumlas aside for a moment, how can all of that be reconciled in the absence of a Trinitarian view of the nature of God?

 

[CherubRam]

I think we need to also consider the New Testament's description of the Holy Ghost as a person, Christ's description of himself as not the Father in the flesh, and the point that almost all of us accept--the Oneness of God Almighty. Leaving all development of doctrine and baptismal forumlas aside for a moment, how can all of that be reconciled in the absence of a Trinitarian view of the nature of God?

The Holy Spirit is the Father our God whose name is (Yahuah / Yahwah.) "Holy Spirit" is a title and not a name.

 

[CherubRam]

It was understood that the Messiah would be a god sent from heaven. The Jews did not believe Yahshua was a god.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

 

[CherubRam]

Who is equal with God: Christian Forum

 

[BelCantoBaptist]

It was understood that the Messiah would be a god sent from heaven. The Jews did not believe Yahshua was a god.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

"a" God? This sounds like JW tactics. No it was not understood that the Messiah would be "a" god as that would violate Jewish monotheism. THe prophecy in Isaiah says that he will be called Immanuel which means "GOD WITH US"

Also it doesn't matter if the word god is capitalized or not, ho theos or theos in the NT unless otherwise noted in the sentence structure always refer to Yahweh.

 

[Der Alte]

Facts about Trinitarianism. Christian Forum

Same ol' lame ol' anti- rubbish copy/pasted from any number of anti-Christian websites. The list of so-called references at the end of that trash dump is totally false. But people who want to attack the Trinity will believe anything they read online.

For example this blatant lie.

Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger:
He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome." The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.

As this quote is presented it reads,

"The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."​

However, what does the actual text from his book say?

Here is the 2004 reprint of the book online for anyone to view.

Ratzinger’s remarks come at the start of a chapter subtitled: Introductory Remarks on the History and Structure of the Apostles' Creed. He is not giving a history on the text of Matthew 28:19. The subject of this paragraph is the Apostle’s creed NOT Matt 28:19. Now here's the actual quote from Cardinal Ratzinger:

It may be useful to preface the discussion with a few facts about the origin and structure of the Creed; these will at the same time throw some light on the legitimacy of the procedure. The basic form of our profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text comes from the city of Rome; but its internal origin lies in worship; more precisely, in the conferring of baptism. This again was fundamentally based on the words of the risen Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."​

The words in parentheses, (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) from your link are not in his text. The "text" he's referring to in the quote is the text of the Creed, not the text of Matthew 28:19. And as you can see, he goes on to quote Matthew 28:19 a few verses later the same way it appears in our modern translations and in the writings of Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, etc.

Introduction to Christianity - Pope Benedict XVI - Google Books

 

[CherubRam]

"a" God? This sounds like JW tactics. No it was not understood that the Messiah would be "a" god as that would violate Jewish monotheism. THe prophecy in Isaiah says that he will be called Immanuel which means "GOD WITH US"

Also it doesn't matter if the word god is capitalized or not, ho theos or theos in the NT unless otherwise noted in the sentence structure always refer to Yahweh.

You are gods: Christian Forum

 

[CherubRam]

Same ol' lame ol' anti- rubbish copy/pasted from any number of anti-Christian websites. The list of so-called references at the end of that trash dump is totally false. But people who want to attack the Trinity will believe anything they read online.

For example this blatant lie.



As this quote is presented it reads,

"The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome."​

However, what does the actual text from his book say?

Here is the 2004 reprint of the book online for anyone to view.

Ratzinger’s remarks come at the start of a chapter subtitled: Introductory Remarks on the History and Structure of the Apostles' Creed. He is not giving a history on the text of Matthew 28:19. The subject of this paragraph is the Apostle’s creed NOT Matt 28:19. Now here's the actual quote from Cardinal Ratzinger:

It may be useful to preface the discussion with a few facts about the origin and structure of the Creed; these will at the same time throw some light on the legitimacy of the procedure. The basic form of our profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text comes from the city of Rome; but its internal origin lies in worship; more precisely, in the conferring of baptism. This again was fundamentally based on the words of the risen Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."​

The words in parentheses, (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) from your link are not in his text. The "text" he's referring to in the quote is the text of the Creed, not the text of Matthew 28:19. And as you can see, he goes on to quote Matthew 28:19 a few verses later the same way it appears in our modern translations and in the writings of Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, etc.

Introduction to Christianity - Pope Benedict XVI - Google Books

No one cares what Ratzinger has to say. It is my understand that the wording was later change in his book.

 

[Der Alte]

You are gods: Christian Forum

Same ol' out-of-context scripture which does not say what antis- think it does.

 

[Der Alte]

No one cares what Ratzinger has to say. It is my understand that the wording was later change in his book.

What you think you understand about Ratzinger is not verifiable therefore irrelevant. You may notice I provide easily verifiable evidence, not suppositions, assumptions or presuppositions.

 

[Albion]

The Holy Spirit is the Father our God whose name is (Yahuah / Yahwah.) "Holy Spirit" is a title and not a name.

Why would anyone think that? I mean, it's a theoretical possibility, but the Bible describes him using a personal pronoun, and Jesus said he would be sent from the Father. No one describes any person as "sending" himself.

 

[Der Alte]

The Holy Spirit is the Father our God whose name is (Yahuah / Yahwah.) "Holy Spirit" is a title and not a name.

ויאמר עוד אלהים אל־משׁה כה־תאמר אל־בני ישׂראל יהוה אלהי אבתיכם אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב שׁלחני אליכם זה־שׁמי לעלם וזה זכרי לדר דר׃

 

[CherubRam]

Why would anyone think that? I mean, it's a theoretical possibility, but the Bible describes him using a personal pronoun, and Jesus said he would be sent from the Father. No one describes any person as "sending" himself.

Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God and not another person. God our Father is a Holy Spirit. God is Spirit, and He is Holy. God is a living being and not a concept.

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Isaiah 63:10
Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

Isaiah 63:11
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

 

[Phantasman]

Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God and not another person. God our Father is a Holy Spirit. God is Spirit, and He is Holy. God is a living being and not a concept.

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Isaiah 63:10
Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

Isaiah 63:11
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

It's interesting in your so called "facts", that the Holy Spirit (as you claim) is the same thing as a holy spirit. Or (depending on translation) a holy Spirit.

It's funny that Christ said he was going to send this Holy Spirit, and John said it couldn't be given until Christ was glorified, yet lo and behold.........there it is was back with David.

Maybe Jesus didn't know the facts as you know them. Maybe the interpreters can't agree on what it was David said. The Jewish Bible doesn't even use holy spirit. But what do they know? Obviously not the facts.

 

[Der Alte]

Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God and not another person. God our Father is a Holy Spirit. God is Spirit, and He is Holy. God is a living being and not a concept.

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Isaiah 63:10
Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

Isaiah 63:11
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely an impersonal force or power, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is, there are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

[91]​

Sources Consulted:

CARM.org

DTL.org/Trinity

 

[CherubRam]

It's interesting in your so called "facts", that the Holy Spirit (as you claim) is the same thing as a holy spirit. Or (depending on translation) a holy Spirit.

It's funny that Christ said he was going to send this Holy Spirit, and John said it couldn't be given until Christ was glorified, yet lo and behold.........there it is was back with David.

Maybe Jesus didn't know the facts as you know them. Maybe the interpreters can't agree on what it was David said. The Jewish Bible doesn't even use holy spirit. But what do they know? Obviously not the facts.

The translation is correct, you are in error. The term "Holy Spirit" was not a new invention in the New Testament.

 

[Phantasman]

The translation is correct, you are in error. The term "Holy Spirit" was not a new invention in the New Testament.

Thanks, but I think I'll stick with the son of God on this one over you.

 

[CherubRam]

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely an impersonal force or power, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is, there are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

[91]​

Sources Consulted:

CARM.org

DTL.org/Trinity

Interesting, but there are different ways to translate those verses. I will copy them down to make a further study.

 

[Der Alte]

Interesting, but there are different ways to translate those verses. I will copy them down to make a further study.

What makes you think there is a different way to translate the verses since you have not yet studied them?