TRINITARIANS: A Question about the Holy Spirit?

[drmmjr]

Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, the Trinity claim is that God is 3 in 1, each member a person, eternal (without begininning), self-existing, distinct and co-equal to the others. There is no order in this case, and the names like Father and son are merely arbitrary in reality.

If the Holy Spirit is a Distinct person not subjected to God but of equal status, then Trinitarianism makes the Father and Jesus liars in their claims as Father and son. A third party has now become the father. God forbid.

We are talking about 3 distinct PERSONS in 1 here.

So I hope someone can explain to me how the Gospel of Jesus Christ handed to us in the bible became so convoluted?

Thanks in advance!

Cubes,

Did you ever get an answer on this? If I read your post correctly, the question you have is that if the Holy Spirit is what came upon Mary and caused her to conceive, then shouldn't the Holy Spirit be the father of Jesus. If we look at Matthew 1:18, we see that Mary is found with child of the Holy Ghost.

But we also see that in the scripture you show, the Holy Spirit is referred to as the power of the Highest. This doesn't sound like the Holy Spirit is a third person, but the power of God. If it was a third person, then it would be the father of Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.[/SIZE]

Cubes,

[SIZE=-1]Did you ever get an answer on this? If I read your post correctly, the question you have is that if the Holy Spirit is what came upon Mary and caused her to conceive, then shouldn't the Holy Spirit be the father of Jesus. If we look at Matthew 1:18, we see that Mary is found with child of the Holy Ghost.

But we also see that in the scripture you show, the Holy Spirit is referred to as the power of the Highest. This doesn't sound like the Holy Spirit is a third person, but the power of God. If it was a third person, then it would be the father of Jesus.[/SIZE]

In Biblical Greeek, the Granville Sharp rule states that when two nouns are joined by the copulative "kai", "and" and both nouns have the definite article, they refer to different persons or things.

And here are links to my previous posts.

Eighty passages mentioning all three Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15573157&postcount=50

Seventy attributes of the Holy Spirit, including a mind and a self.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15702615&postcount=145

Personality of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15644577#post15644577

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14913632&postcount=104

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I guess if I'm to understand more about God, I'm gong to have to read the comics.

Eph 4:4-6; One God and Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in you all. This verse relates to the Father - period. It, by itself, disproves the trinity.[/SIZE]

That is right, that verse relates to the Father. And quoting that one verse and ignoring many, many, other verses proves absolutely nothing about the Trinity. There are 7,959 verses in the N.T.. Please explain to me how quoting 1 and ignoring the other 7,958 proves something?

 

[gort]

Lol!

 

[Der Alte]

I guess if I'm to understand more about God, I'm gong to have to read the comics.

Eph 4:4-6; One God and Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in you all. This verse relates to the Father - period. It, by itself, disproves the trinity.

Something you seem unable to understand is an argument from silence does not prove anything, except silence. For example, for hundreds of years anti-Christians attacked the faith and the Bible claiming that the Hittites, never existed because there were no non-Biblical records of such a people. All that “argument from silence,” meant absolutely nothing when proof of the Hittites was discovered in the Tell El-Armana tablets, in 1887.

You quoted Eph 4:6, grossly, out-of-context, ignoring vss. 4 and 5, and claiming it related only to the Father. You didn’t say exactly what you thought it proved, except, somehow it supposedly disproves the Trinity.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.​

When we read the passage, in context, rather than disproving the Trinity, it actually proves it,

• "one Spirit. . . who is above all, and through all, and in you all.,”
• “one Lord. . . who is above all, and through all, and in you all., and
• "One God and Father who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

How could this passage which clearly includes Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, possibly disprove the Trinity?

There are, at least, eighty-one (81) passages in the N.T. that speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Posted [Here]. [size=+1]IGNORED![/size]

Then note all these verses, in the same chapter, which only mention Christ, the Son of God, or Jesus. What do these verses prove about the Father? You seem convinced that if you can find one verse, somewhere, that does not mention the Holy Spirit, or in this case Jesus, it somehow proves something about who is not mentioned. Does someone or something cease to exist simply because it is not mentioned in any particular verse?

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

Eph 4:2 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:​

And last your misquote of Eph 4:6 also refutes whatever argument you were trying to make with your other two proof texts, which mention only the Father and Son. So which is it, Father and Son, or Father, only?

 

[drmmjr]

In Biblical Greeek, the Granville Sharp rule states that when two nouns are joined by the copulative "kai", "and" and both nouns have the definite article, they refer to different persons or things.

And here are links to my previous posts.

Eighty passages mentioning all three Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15573157&postcount=50

Seventy attributes of the Holy Spirit, including a mind and a self.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15702615&postcount=145

Personality of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15644577#post15644577

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14913632&postcount=104

And how does this answer the question about the Holy Spirit being the father of Jesus? If you look at Matthew 1:18, we see that Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost. That would mean that the Holy Ghost needs to be considered the father of Jesus, wouldn't it?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]And how does this answer the question about the Holy Spirit being the father of Jesus? If you look at Matthew 1:18, we see that Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost. That would mean that the Holy Ghost needs to be considered the father of Jesus, wouldn't it?[/SIZE]

I wasn't attempting to answer your question, I was only clarifying an apparent misunderstanding. And I doubt very seriously that you were really interested in an answer. Your "question" is the same old, same old, typical, Christian Unorthodox Later Theology religion, "This is the one question (or verse) which completely, totally, absolutely, and utterly, destroys the doctrine of the Trinity, and no Trinitarian can answer it."

Matthew 1:18 was not written in a vacuum. Christians practice something called harmonization of the scriptures. Read the last four words of this verse. Any more questions?
[bible]luke 1:35[/bible]

 

[repentandbelieve]

Some questions I have for non-trinitarians are:

"Who is your Lord, who do you serve, to whom does your allegiance belong?"

The Word says that we cannot serve two masters. So who is your master, God the Father or Jesus Christ?

Who teaches you, who brings you revelation, who called you, God the Father or the Holy Spirit?

Trintarians can answer these questions by simply saying that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are One.

 

[Der Alte]

Post deleted. Member suffering from terminal sometimers disease.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Oneness as practiced today never existed in the church until April 15, 1913, at an AofG revival in Arroyo Seco, CA, where it was concocted by Frank Ewart, an AoG pastor. All the oneness believers who have ever posted here have been unable to identify any church or denomination who practiced anything resembling modern oneness, before that date.

Also your questions show you don't have a clue what the Trinity is or what Trintarians believe. Just the same old, same old, cobbled up, "three gods" strawman.

Here is a link to my earlier post with several working definitions of Trinity. If you're going to talk about sommething you should at least have some idea what you are talking about. You quite evidently don't.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15838640&postcount=402

Thank you for the links, but I'm not interestested. The only link needed to discern spiritual things is Gods Holy Spirit.

God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one. This is what the term "Trinty" means and this is what Trinitarians believe.

It's true that the word "Trinity" is a modern term, however the word "Godhead" is as old as the Bible. And I'm willing to acknowledge that "Modern" Oneness (borrowing from you) may be responsible for taking the liberty of making such a translation.

But the doctrine of "Oneness" originated in the Church that Christ built upon Peter. And in this Church, which is the True Church (and an invisable Church) this "Oneness" continues to be practised the same today as it has always been. This is the only "Oneness" worthy of our thought and worth discussing.

"Oneness", in the sense that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and Gods Holy Sprit are united in such a way that they are inseperable. These three parts to the Godhead, or Trinity, cannot be divided and they will always be in complete harmony with One another. Therefore, in this sense they are One in the same.

Because of this, I can see how theoretically Trinitarians can offer their love and allegiance to each part of the Trinity (each, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and Gods Holy Spirit) simultanously and undividedly.

But it should raise this question to all non-trinitarians, "If God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are not One in the same, to which do we offer our love and allegiance to.?????"

IMO, this is a fair question, considering that the Word teaches that man cannot serve more than one master. Therefore, it seems to me, that a believer who denies the Trinity places themself in a serious dilema that would somehow have to answered.

There is no dilema (at least here) for Trinitarians. The answer to this question is very simple, for to love One is to love all three, because they are all three One in the same.

I would appreciate an honest answer to this question from a non-trinitarian perspective. Without sarcasism, catagorizing, labeling, name calling, link referencing, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you for the links, but I'm not interestested. The only link needed to discern spiritual things is Gods Holy Spirit.

God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one. This is what the term "Trinty" means and this is what Trinitarians believe.

It's true that the word "Trinity" is a modern term, however the word "Godhead" is as old as the Bible. And I'm willing to acknowledge that "Modern" Oneness (borrowing from you) may be responsible for taking the liberty of making such a translation.

But the doctrine of "Oneness" originated in the Church that Christ built upon Peter. And in this Church, which is the True Church (and an invisable Church) this "Oneness" continues to be practised the same today as it has always been. This is the only "Oneness" worthy of our thought and worth discussing.

"Oneness", in the sense that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and Gods Holy Sprit are united in such a way that they are inseperable. These three parts to the Godhead, or Trinity, cannot be divided and they will always be in complete harmony with One another. Therefore, in this sense they are One in the same.

Because of this, I can see how theoretically Trinitarians can offer their love and allegiance to each part of the Trinity (each, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and Gods Holy Spirit) simultanously and undividedly.

But it should raise this question to all non-trinitarians, "If God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are not One in the same, to which do we offer our love and allegiance to.?????"

IMO, this is a fair question, considering that the Word teaches that man cannot serve more than one master. Therefore, it seems to me, that a believer who denies the Trinity places themself in a serious dilema that would somehow have to answered.

There is no dilema (at least here) for Trinitarians. The answer to this question is very simple, for to love One is to love all three, because they are all three One in the same.

I would appreciate an honest answer to this question from a non-trinitarian perspective. Without sarcasism, catagorizing, labeling, name calling, link referencing, etc.

I sincerely apology for my post. There is no excuse, but by way of mitigation it was late, and I was tired and I misread the first part of your question as being directed at Trinitarians rather than non-Trinitarians.

 

[repentandbelieve]

I sincerely apology for my post. There is no excuse, but by way of mitigation it was late, and I was tired and I misread the first part of your question as being directed at Trinitarians rather than non-Trinitarians.

Your apology is accepted. Please accept my apology for taking so long to respond. My computor has been down.

It's really easy to misinterpet what someone is trying to say, especially over the net. I think that we all make the same mistake quite often.

 

[Peterson]

Luke 1:35; And the angel answered and said unto her, the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Here is yet, another example of trying to make Scriptures fit a preconceived notion. The angel Gabriel, in this verse, is talking about Mary conceiving from the Father alone. There is no third person involved here in the conception of Jesus.

The Holy Ghost (Spirit) shall come upon thee. This is the Father's Spirit that is given to Mary. She would receive understanding of why, and how, the purpose, and responsibility that was being placed on her by the Father.

The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. In other words, Mary would become pregnant by supernatural means, since she would not be made pregnant by a normal relationship with a man. It would be by the will and power of the Father. Consequently, Mary would go through a normal process of pregnancy to term, and give birth to a son in the normal manner, who would be the Son of God the Father. Overshadow, in this instance, is by supernatural means.

The Father did it all. There was no third person called the Holy Ghost even remotely involved in the conception and birth of Jesus. Jesus always addressed and acknowledged the Father only. His person contained the Spiritual genes of the Father only. Nothing in the conception can be used to justify the Trinity.

 

[hypernike]

But it should raise this question to all non-trinitarians, "If God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are not One in the same, to which do we offer our love and allegiance to.?????"

Dear Repentandbelieve,



The hierarchy is plain in the bible.

Our love and allegiance should ultimately end up to the Father.

Father Sent Jesus ( The who sends is greater than the one who was sent)

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit (by asking the Father)whom proceeds from the father.

Jesus did only what His Father told him to do.

Christ came that we may know the Father, The One true God.

The Holy Spirit did things only in Jesus behalf.

The Father is greater than Jesus. Jesus said it himself. So forget about co-equality.

(Suggested readings John 14-17)



Question: If Jesus does not consider himself to be equal with the Father, can we just accept it as it is. Do we really have to disagree with Jesus and insist on our belief that he is equal with the Father because the doctrine of trinity asserts it? Is man made concept of trinity greater than Jesus? Are we followers of Jesus or not?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Luke 1:35; And the angel answered and said unto her, the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Here is yet, another example of trying to make Scriptures fit a preconceived notion.[/SIZE]

It sure is another example, and you are the one trying to make it fit your false teachings. Read the verse again pay close attention to all the words. There are two things happening.

And the angel answered and said unto her, the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, [size=+1]and[/size] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.​

Up to your same old, same old, hit and run tactics come in take a few pot shots, ingnore virtually everything posted in response to you, when the discussion gets too difficult, you run for he hills

 

[hypernike]

Hey guys,

"And the angel answered and said unto her, the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, [size=+1]and[/size] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee."


i think this simply means that wherever the Holy Ghost is ,the power of the Highest (God) is also present. For the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God, and with Him also the presence, the power, the holiness and everything that is of God.

Now given that the Holy Ghost is "He", does it mean for sure that He is a person? maybe? maybe not? church is personafied in the scriptures, also Israel and false religion, do they make them persons? and if the Holy Ghost say is indeed a person, do scriptures plainly said that he is? Did jesus ever taught unequivocally that the comforter is God in his discourses or any of the apostles in their epistles. Yes the Holy Ghost is personafied, but honestly, the scriptural support for the diety of the Holy spirit are at best implied! isn't it dangerous that such a foundational doctrine could be founded in such a way? trinitarians themselves admit that the word trinity is not even in the bible. it was an invented term to explain the nature of God. now, the bible admonished us in the scriptures not to go beyond what was written.
in formulating the trinity, don't you think we stretch the scriptures a bit beyond what was written.

also let's say that the bible teaches God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. can we just take that at face value, as the way it is? i mean to coin the word trinity to represent the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost can be construed as an idolatry. because you made a mental representation of God which is not God, almost but not quite. (however close it is, still a representation). why not say i believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, instead of saying i believe in the trinity? you see the doctrine of trinity is unnecessary. the scriptures can explain God even without that doctrine. Jesus is the exact image or representation of God. GOd can be known thru Him. He came that we may know the Father, The One True God and have eternal life. (John 17 1-3)

​

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Hey guys,

"And the angel answered and said unto her, the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, [size=+1]and[/size] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee."​

i think this simply means that wherever the Holy Ghost is ,the power of the Highest (God) is also present. For the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God, and with Him also the presence, the power, the holiness and everything that is of God.

Now given that the Holy Ghost is "He", does it mean for sure that He is a person? maybe? maybe not? church is personafied in the scriptures, also Israel and false religion, do they make them persons? and if the Holy Ghost say is indeed a person, do scriptures plainly said that he is? Did jesus ever taught unequivocally that the comforter is God in his discourses or any of the apostles in their epistles. Yes the Holy Ghost is personafied, but honestly, the scriptural support for the diety of the Holy spirit are at best implied! isn't it dangerous that such a foundational doctrine could be founded in such a way? trinitarians themselves admit that the word trinity is not even in the bible. it was an invented term to explain the nature of God. now, the bible admonished us in the scriptures not to go beyond what was written.
in formulating the trinity, don't you think we stretch the scriptures a bit beyond what was written.

also let's say that the bible teaches God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. can we just take that at face value, as the way it is? i mean to coin the word trinity to represent the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost can be construed as an idolatry. because you made a mental representation of God which is not God, almost but not quite. (however close it is, still a representation). why not say i believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, instead of saying i believe in the trinity? you see the doctrine of trinity is unnecessary. the scriptures can explain God even without that doctrine. Jesus is the exact image or representation of God. GOd can be known thru Him. He came that we may know the Father, The One True God and have eternal life. (John 17 1-3)[/SIZE]

About the word, Trinity. We can say these twenty two words,

1 Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.​

Or we can can say the same thing in one word, Trinity. The argument is fallacious for many reasons. For example, the word Bible is not in the scripture. I saw several other words in your post that are not in the Bible, which we use to discuss the Bible.

Here are links to a few of my posts on this topic, most here in this thread. There is a short description of the specific points discussed in the post. I think, based on the number of posts in this thread every argument ever devised against the doctrine of the Trinity has been answered, at least, once and many several times.

Please check these out and if you think there is anything left out let me know and I will be glad to respond.

Thirty five personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit, including a distinct mind, self, and will.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14913632&postcount=104

An article which discusses the personality of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15644577#post15644577

Copied article with eighty (80) passages which mention Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, distinct from each other, interacting with one another.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15573157&postcount=50

YHWH the Mighty God, the Son the Mighty God.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15572056&postcount=190

A few of over 40, O.T passages which refer to YHWH, applied to Jesus in N.T.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15571672&postcount=189

My discussion of the mind and the self of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15528967&postcount=139

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15135486&postcount=112

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15108180&postcount=106

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14793983&postcount=230

Three articles discussing the personality of the HS

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15702615&postcount=145

Christian Thinktank, personality of the spirit.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15644577&postcount=138

John 10:33, and no other gods, living God, true God.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15816967&postcount=548

Definition of Trinity.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15838640&postcount=402

Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Judaism before Christian era.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15816272&postcount=24

YHWH, No other God

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15872214&postcount=278

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15873878&postcount=279

But, Jesus is God.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16490187&postcount=224​

 

[hypernike]

Dear DA,



Wow that’s a lot of readings, thanks for the link anyway. I’ll try to read all of them when I found the time. but I did had my own readings about the Trinity, Unitarianism and its variants. But to make sure I reread the Nicene Creed. The creed is simple but the explanations and supportive commentaries are enormous ranging from philosophical to metaphysical. I wonder why….



You posted and I quote

“1 Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Or we can say the same thing in one word, Trinity”. end of quote.



This is exactly what I’m talking about, der. The father the word and the holy spirit is not the same as trinity. The father the word and the holy spirit is the father the word and the holy spirit. Can you see the simplicity of this argument?



When I say the bible, I mean the books from genesis to revelation and its essential message (the whole counsel of God) with regards to man and the unfolding salvation history. I believe that this should only be the authoritative basis of discussion on matters of Christian doctrines otherwise its futile, because we will have no common reference to agree upon. But of course you knew that already.



My problem with trinity is the declaration of equality of the father to Jesus Christ, when its plain in the book of John (in Jesus own words) that.. “The Father is greater than me.”

But of course you can always give me links upon links to explain this with proposition upon proposition until the co-equality of the creed is justified. But really if you take this scripture with a child like heart, it’s very easy to see that they are contradictory.



If Jesus would not consider himself equal with the Father for whatever reasons, could we not take his word at face value and accept and believe it, if we profess to be followers of our lord Jesus? Do we have to disagree with Jesus words on this because our doctrine asserts otherwise? Is the doctrine of trinity greater than Jesus?



Please answer but please no more links!

 

[repentandbelieve]

Question: If Jesus does not consider himself to be equal with the Father, can we just accept it as it is. Do we really have to disagree with Jesus and insist on our belief that he is equal with the Father because the doctrine of trinity asserts it? Is man made concept of trinity greater than Jesus? Are we followers of Jesus or not?

My question is "Is Jesus Christ your Lord?"

It seems to me that it would be a violation of the first commandment to call Jesus your "Lord" without recognizing His divinity.

 

[hypernike]

Hi r & b,

Jesus is my lord and saviour. i have no problem with his divinity.
and there is no contradiction with the first commandment.

all worships goes to the Father, the one true God through Jesus Christ.
if we worship Jesus he will accept it but eventually give it to the father.
THe father gave all power and authority on earth, that includes to recieve worship in his behalf.
all prayers are addressed to the father through and in the name of JEsus.
even Jesus prays to the Father.