TRINITARIANS: A Question about the Holy Spirit?

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Der Alter,
Not a one of the verses you quoted in #104 define a third party Holy Ghost. The old "straw man" that the Holy Spirit is not a mere force like electricity, has been used for years. Trinitarians then go on to quote these verses as proof of someone with emotion, and thus make a grand leap to a third person, ergo trinity, in an effort to prove their point.[/SIZE]

Repeating the same argument over and over does not prove it.

[SIZE=-1]The fact is, none of these verses identify a third person. They all relate to the Father, or Son, or both, depending on the context - never a third person that exists nowhere in the Godhead, or in the Bible, but only in the minds of traditionalists.[/SIZE]

Still repeating the same argument over and over.

[SIZE=-1]Romans 8:14, is a case in point. The Spirit, in Romans 8, is of only two sources. Either the Spirit is the Father's Spirit or Christ's: v. 9; But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. V.10; And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin,; but the Spirit is life, because of righteousness. V.11; But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.[/SIZE]

Of course the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. No Trinitarian ever said otherwise. Simply saying that does not prove your argument. Jesus is God's Son, distinct from God, the Holy Spirit is God's spirit distinct from God, so what is your point? You still have never adequately addressed my posts re: Jesus' use of the word "Himself" in reference to the Father, Jesus,Himself, and the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus uses the word "Himself" to refer to Peter, Satan, Herod, etc. He means to indicate a particular person distinct from all other persons. How or why does the word have a different meaning when Jesus uses it to refer to the Father, Himself, and the Holy Spirit?

Also verse 34 describes who the intercessor is in verse 26. It is not a third person. Verse 34; Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

And how, exactly, does this verse preclude the Holy Spirit from being an intercessor?

[SIZE=-1]The Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father, through Christ, in Christians. Romans 8:6; For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

[/SIZE]

Your verse does not prove your argument. Another verse you have never addressed. Shall we rewrite this Rom 8:27, to make it conform to your interpretation? "And he [God] that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the mind of God.

[bible]romans 8:27[/bible]

 

[Simonline]

Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, the Trinity claim is that God is 3 in 1, each member a person, eternal (without begininning), self-existing, distinct and co-equal to the others. There is no order in this case, and the names like Father and son are merely arbitrary in reality.

Not arbitrary, they are the human terms which God has chosen in order to communicate to his finite creatures (i.e us, as humans) who, unlike Him, do not possess omniscience, the complex and intricate Nature of his Trinitarian Being. The terms chosen by God (i.e. 'Father' and 'Son') do not communicate the exact and perfect Nature of the relationship between the first and second Persons of the Trinity but they are as close aproximations to the truth that our finite experience will still comprehend. As with seeking to translate from one language and culture to another the translations are never always exact and perfect. The problem is not God's ability to state the precise Nature of His internal relationships but rather our ability to comprehend.

If the Holy Spirit is a Distinct person not subjected to God but of equal status, then Trinitarianism makes the Father and Jesus liars in their claims as Father and son. A third party has now become the father. God forbid.

No. With all due respect you have misunderstood.

With regard to God's essential Nature (without reference to his Creation) then the three Persons of the Trinity are indeed as you say "...that God is 3 in 1, each member a Person, Eternal (without begininning [or end]), Self-existing, distinct and co-equal to the others. There is no [hierarchical] order in this case." However, with reference to the Creation (and also salvation) the three Persons of the Trinity have unanimously elected to operate in a hierarchical manner (Jn.16:12-15; 1Cor.15:24-28) but the non-hierarchical Nature of Divinity is essentially unchanged by this (Mal.3:6; Heb.13:8).

The terms 'Father' and 'Son' (see my posts on the thread Is the Gospel Trinity based?') relate exclusively to the nature of the relationship between the first and second Persons of the Trinity and have nothing to do with the Incarnation. The reason why it was the Holy Spirit who miraculously brought about the Incarnation was because it is the Holy Spirit who is the 'dunamis' 'dynamic power' (same root word for dynamite) of God - the one who actually 'gets the job done'. It was the same Holy Spirit who brought the entire Creation into Being (though I doubt he did it alone?) and who later went on to resurrect the Messiah from the dead. Although it was the Holy Spirit who overshadowed Mary, nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is the 'father' of the Messiah. The Divine Word/Son of God has only one Father and He is the first Person of the Trinity and not the third.

We are talking about 3 distinct PERSONS in 1 here.

So I hope someone can explain to me how the Gospel of Jesus Christ handed to us in the bible became so convoluted?

It is 'convoluted' as you put it, precisely because God is the Tri-Une Divine Creator and not simply (using the 'McDonalds principle') a bigger 'Infinite' sized human creature. God is not simply Unitarian like all his creatures otherwise we would have no problem understanding him and he would then be reduced to our level (we could box him up, put him in a pidgeon-hole and forget about him)?! But God is not like that. He is quite literally infinitely beyond our comprehension. That does not mean that we cannot know anything about God but it does mean that we cannot know everything about God. We can only know what God himself chooses to reveal to us (bearing in mind that, not being omniscient, we only have the capacity to comprehend so much..even for the greatest thinkers amongst us, so God has to limit the amount of knowledge he shares with us). Thus, what God reveals to us is absolutely true, but he doesn't reveal everything.

Thanks in advance!

You're welcome.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

This may or may not address the OP, but this topic came up last night in my Alpha class at church. I was asked to explain the Trinity and here's my answer:

I am F4C the father (of 4 squiggly ones)
I am F4C the son (of my parents)
I am F4C the spirit (of the father and the son) in my children's mind. In other words, when they are not physically present with me, they hear (hopefully) and apply (hopefully) what I have taught them (hopefully - did I say that already? ).

I, F4C, am all of these in one person.
And then I'll concede that that's as far a human parallel I can make, since God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are way beyond comparison to little ol' me!

With all due respect, if this is what you said at your Alpha course then what you taught the group was the ancient unitarian (not Trinitarian) heresy of Sabellianism or 'modalism'.

This is essentially that God is unitarian in nature (one being/one Person) but that he manifests himself using three different 'persona' or 'masks'.

Although, your 'god' fulfills three separate and distinct roles in relation to three different people or groups of people, that 'god' is still essentially unitarian (one being/ one person)

Unfortunately, this is not what is understood by the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Furthermore, what is to stop the analogy expanding beyond the 'three' to other 'personas' (the one you 'wear' with your employer, the one you 'wear' with your friends)...the permutations are endless.

Sorry.

Simonline.

 

[Cubes]

Hi Simonline,

Been off CF for several days. Just saw your post. Will read and respond later. Thanks for your contribution.

 

[Cubes]

If God intended for us to neglect the use of logic when reading the bible, then perhaps the trinity would make sense. But I doubt he did because of his call to us to come reason together with him: Isaiah 1:18.


Phil 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

***

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."*

***

Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your *understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.




If Christ was equal in status to The Most High God to begin with, then is this considered to be an exaltation to one who was from eternity always exalted and worshiped? And that to the glory of the Father (Most High)?

So we fallen humans are saved by grace to move on to a better state of life, thanks to what Jesus did for us, but he who was equally YHWH to begin with, who gave himself for us, for his trouble is rather now told that every knee should bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord? And that to the glory of the Father? How is this a promotion to glory for one who already and always had this status?

The word says that for his trouble, God has HIGHLY EXALTED HIM. I consider these verses to be true, which means that Christ although had glory with the Father, could not have had this much glory to begin with, making this a definite exaltation.

The Trinitarian way of thinking turns this and other verses like it into demotions and therefore insults to the one who promoted and to the one who accepts the promotion. One is inadvertently called a cheap skate and the other for not knowing the difference b/n a demotion and promotion.

And what does that do for the hope we have and the promises we hold on to in the beloved? It says that we can expect to be worse off than we are for trusting God and following Jesus. Not good and glorifying to God.


Come on, Trinitarians, be reason--able!

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]If God intended for us to neglect the use of logic when reading the bible, then perhaps the trinity would make sense. But I doubt he did because of his call to us to come reason together with him: Isaiah 1:18.

Phil 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore [Because of the points highlighted above. DA] God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
* * *
How is this a promotion to glory for one who already and always had this status?[/size]

See highlights in Philippians. And also see John 1 where Jesus prayed for God to restore to Him the glory He had with the Father before the world was.

[SIZE=-1]The word says that for his trouble, God has HIGHLY EXALTED HIM. I consider these verses to be true, which means that Christ although had glory with the Father, could not have had this much glory to begin with, making this a definite exaltation.[/size]

Did you read Philippians before you posted it?

[SIZE=-1]The Trinitarian way of thinking turns this and other verses like it into demotions and therefore insults to the one who promoted and to the one who accepts the promotion. One is inadvertently called a cheap skate and the other for not knowing the difference b/n a demotion and promotion.[/size]

No the "oneness" teaching deliberately misrepresents Trinitarian theology, ignores scripture, and tries to prove its teaching with a handful of out-of-context proof texts.

It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that God manifest in the flesh, willingly laying down His life, for His "sheep," is some kind of humbling, demotion, etc.

[SIZE=-1]And what does that do for the hope we have and the promises we hold on to in the beloved? It says that we can expect to be worse off than we are for trusting God and following Jesus. Not good and glorifying to God.[/size]

I don't even understand this paragraph. It does not make sense.

[SIZE=-1]Come on, Trinitarians, be reason--able![/size]

Come on "oneness" read the scriptures, all the scriptures and base your beliefs on the entire Bible not just your handful of out-of-context proof texts.

And if you are going to try to discuss the Trinity then at least make an effort to learn what it is you are trying to discuss, and not the twisted abberation most anti-Trinitarians teach.

 

[Simonline]

If God intended for us to neglect the use of logic when reading the bible, then perhaps the trinity would make sense. But I doubt he did because of his call to us to come reason together with him: Isaiah 1:18.


Phil 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

***

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."*

***

Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your *understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.




If Christ was equal in status to The Most High God to begin with, then is this considered to be an exaltation to one who was from eternity always exalted and worshiped? And that to the glory of the Father (Most High)?

So we fallen humans are saved by grace to move on to a better state of life, thanks to what Jesus did for us, but he who was equally YHWH to begin with, who gave himself for us, for his trouble is rather now told that every knee should bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord? And that to the glory of the Father? How is this a promotion to glory for one who already and always had this status?

The word says that for his trouble, God has HIGHLY EXALTED HIM. I consider these verses to be true, which means that Christ although had glory with the Father, could not have had this much glory to begin with, making this a definite exaltation.

The Trinitarian way of thinking turns this and other verses like it into demotions and therefore insults to the one who promoted and to the one who accepts the promotion. One is inadvertently called a cheap skate and the other for not knowing the difference b/n a demotion and promotion.

And what does that do for the hope we have and the promises we hold on to in the beloved? It says that we can expect to be worse off than we are for trusting God and following Jesus. Not good and glorifying to God.


Come on, Trinitarians, be reason--able!

With all due respect, we Trinitarians are perfectly 'reason-able' as I shall now attempt to demonstrate.

God does not expect us to neglect the use of logic in our deliberations, however, he also does not expect us to worship logic either, since that is idolatry. The truth is that logic can only aid human understanding so far. It is not absolute. God, by definition, is bigger than 'Greek' logic and therefore there will be aspects of God which cannot be understood purely on the basis of logic alone (no Vulcan could ever be a Trinitarian Christian) but must be augmented by Divine Revelation (1Cor.2:6-16).

If God is Infinite Truth (Jn.14:6) then by definition he is much too big for finite human minds to fully comprehend. This is why God often reveals Truth to Mankind in the form of Paradox. Two truths which logically contradict each other but which, in reality, are both equally true (such as the 'Sovereignty of God' and 'Man's free will') and must be given equal emphasis in relation to each other. Therefore, as in this case, the Truth is not a 'compromise' somewhere in the middle but both Truths held in their proper tension with each other. (Needless to say, this (like much theological truth) can only really be understood through Divine Revelation (1Cor.2:6-16)).

Therefore, when God invites us to 'come, let us reason together' he is not expecting us to reason on the basis of pure logic alone but also on the basis of his Divine revelation of both himself and ultimate reality. Logic, for finite beings, has its place but we should not allow it to become an intellectual idol.

Let's move on...

The Son of God was equal with God to begin with, but only as Divine. The whole point of the Incarnation was to enable the Son of God to become Human (in the Person of the Messiah) and incorporate that Humanity [i.e 'Human-ness', what it means to be human, not the entire Human race] into the Divinity of God.

This is why, in the ancient Tabernacle system of worship, the Ark of the Covenant (and the poles with which to carry it) had to be made of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim (accacia) wood and overlayed, both inside and out, with pure gold rather than being made entirely of pure gold (Ex.25:10-22). This is because the wood represented the Humanity of the Messiah and the gold represented his Divinity. God was teaching ancient Israel that at a future point (i.e. the Incarnation) he would identify with his human creation in an absolute sense not only by becoming human but also by incorporating finite Humanity into his Infinite Divine Being. [On the principle of 'The New [Testament] is in the Old [Testament] concealed; the Old [Testament] is in the New [Testament] revealed' the truth was there (in anticipatory preparation) but it was not to be 'revealed' until much later.]

Since the Incarnation, the Messiah, as both Infinite Divine and finite human (the hypostatic union) has now been glorified by God to demonstrate to the entire Creation that, as a [perfect] human being, the Messiah succeded in his mission [in contrast to the failure of Adam] to redeem the Creation from the effects of sin, death and decay.

The exaltation is not with reference to the Messiah's Divinity but with reference to his humanity. It is as a human being that the Messiah has been exalted far above all principalities and powers etc.

How can you say that we Trinitarians are effectively 'demoting' the Messiah (as Divine) through the verses you have cited?! For God to Incarnate as a Human Being was the highest honour that God could graciously bestow upon the Human Race and as such is entirely consistent with his Nature and Character as Love (1Jn.4:8). This too was part of his ultimate expression of Love toward the Creation in general and Mankind in particular. For you to traduce such a magnanimous gesture on God's part is not only the height of folly but also extremely arrogant and contemptuous of God's good grace toward us. [Apart from which, it wasn't a 'demotion', since, contrary to popular Liberal and [popular] Evangelical [heretical] opinion, the Messiah did not give up any aspect of his Divine Nature in becoming incarnate. All he gave up was the way in which his Divinity was made manifest.]

With all due respect, you definitely need to go back to the drawing board!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Yet another exellent post D.A. You set such high standards for which us mere mortals should strive to attain

Simonline.

 

[Cubes]

See highlights in Philippians. And also see John 1 where Jesus prayed for God to restore to Him the glory He had with the Father before the world was.

I acknowledged that Christ had glory prior to his being born on earth. My point is that whatever glory he had then, it is evident that the scriptures are saying that he is much more now, HIGHLY EXALTED. That says to me that his exaltation after his resurrection is more than it had been. Just going by the narrative.

Did you read Philippians before you posted it?

No I had not read the entire Epistle of Philippians at the particular time of posting, though at other times. And yes, I did read the text in question (Phil 2:5-11).

No the "oneness" teaching deliberately misrepresents Trinitarian theology, ignores scripture, and tries to prove its teaching with a handful of out-of-context proof texts.

It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that God manifest in the flesh, willingly laying down His life, for His "sheep," is some kind of humbling, demotion, etc.

I am not a "Oneness" or any thing like that. I have no name other than the fact that I am a christian, a follower of Christ. I also believe that God is one, as each of us is one, but that there is a unity b/n Christ and himself, ...just as there can be unity amongst those who love and are likeminded until we all achieve that unity in Christ who is in the Father. I see this as being the task Jesus calls his followers to besides that to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom.


I have raised a question on Phil 2:11 and other scriptures. You've responded. Let those who read understand. And as always, let the God of our Lord Jesus have his way.

I don't even understand this paragraph. It does not make sense.

God is true. He says Jesus is highly exalted for his humility, obedience, sacrifice, and all he went through...and so he is. HIGHLY EXALTED. He also has made promises to us in Christ and he who promised is faithful.

Come on "oneness" read the scriptures, all the scriptures and base your beliefs on the entire Bible not just your handful of out-of-context proof texts.

And if you are going to try to discuss the Trinity then at least make an effort to learn what it is you are trying to discuss, and not the twisted abberation most anti-Trinitarians teach.

DA, thou dost make me laugh....
It's funny because that's what I say...

Perhaps you think that I deny or don't recognized that there is a:
1. Father
2. (His) Son
3. (His) Holy Spirit.

I do indeed acknowledge and do not deny them:

The difference b/n our belief is that:

1. I believe that YHWH/FATHER says he alone is the God above all and that there is no one beside him to whom he can be made equal. There is certainly no one above him. He is the Source of all things/Life and the giver of all good gifts. All judgment is his. He is True and is Light, and by him Christ gets many of his names/attributes.


2. The Holy Spirit is The Father's spirit in Source and Origin. He has given his spirit to all that are his, Christ being foremost and full of the holy spirit. He has authority to send us the holy spirit too and we have authority (if we are his) to impart the same spirit to those that are God's. Moses imparted the Spirit of wisdom to Joshua...

So by this, I recognize the Spirit of God, but I don't lose sight of the fact that he comes from the Father who is God above all and the Giver of his Spirit.

3. I believe that John 1:1 declares that Christ is the word of God. That he was in the beginnning with God, that he is A God/god. Big "G" little "g", take your pick, it doesn't matter to me as Christ is Christ and is not limited or changed by the case or "a" article.

I use a because the entire body of scriptures indicate him to be not the same as the Father, and you yourselves say he is distinct, that he is a "second" person. He who is with God cannot be the same God he is with (though I realize that you disagree) ...so by simple reasoning we see that John 1:1 refers to two Gods. One God is the Father and the other is the Son.


The Son as the Word of God, Word of Life, Lamb of God, Son of God, Messiah (Anointed One), etc has his origin in the Father and does acknowledge that throughout his sayings and parables. Jesus doesn't make a claim about himself without acknowledging his Father as his head. That is what I see in all of scripture. The Apostles also acknowledge this. And our Father seeks to reconcile us to himself through his beloved son, our Lord Jesus Christ.



So to summarize, the scriptures weren't kidding when they said that the Father/GOD is above all, and that is what I acknowledge when I say that God is One, not that there is no such person as Christ or that God has no Spirit.

I acknowledge that the Father is One as a single entity.
That the Son is one entity and in union with His Father through the Spirit.
That we each is one entity who through the spirit of God are one with another in the Son and so One with the Father as we submit to the will of God. That is what we see at the end of the Book in Revelation and what is meant by "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus."


If you disagree, that is fine.

 

[Cubes]

Therefore, when God invites us to 'come, let us reason together' he is not expecting us to reason on the basis of pure logic alone but also on the basis of his Divine revelation of both himself and ultimate reality. Logic, for finite beings, has its place but we should not allow it to become an intellectual idol.

I had hoped that I would not be understood as appealing to intellect alone, or academics, but also to wisdom and the insight given by the spirit of God or "divine revelation" as you put it which is why I cited Is 1:18 and not a textbook.

Let's move on...

Ok

The exaltation is not with reference to the Messiah's Divinity but with reference to his humanity. It is as a human being that the Messiah has been exalted far above all principalities and powers etc.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, forever.
Also who being in the FORM of God....
So I take the exaltation to encompass him entirely: Son of God/Son of Man Not just one of the two. Anyway, that is how I understand it. He suffered and died as the Son of God/Son of Man, arose and ascended and now reigns as Lord of all, being HIGHLY EXALTED. So I make no separation. I only know that He is Lord of all and I bow my knee to him.

How can you say that we Trinitarians are effectively 'demoting' the Messiah (as Divine) through the verses you have cited?! For God to Incarnate as a Human Being was the highest honour that God could graciously bestow upon the Human Race and as such is entirely consistent with his Nature and Character as Love (1Jn.4:8). This too was part of his ultimate expression of Love toward the Creation in general and Mankind in particular. For you to traduce such a magnanimous gesture on God's part is not only the height of folly but also extremely arrogant and contemptuous of God's good grace toward us. [Apart from which, it wasn't a 'demotion', since, contrary to popular Liberal and [popular] Evangelical [heretical] opinion, the Messiah did not give up any aspect of his Divine Nature in becoming incarnate. All he gave up was the way in which his Divinity was made manifest.]

With all due respect, you definitely need to go back to the drawing board!

Simonline.

Well, Simonline, what else is to be said? God knows. Anyone who is not clear about what I said or meant may surely reread my post.


Your explanation as to Christ's humanity being that which is highly exalted also leaves me with more questions than I started out with.

The Most High GOD/YHWH who is exalted above all and worshiped by all who are not rebels and of the devil comes to earth. He became a man and accomplished his mission, and then becomes highly exalted so that all men should call him Lord? It still doesn't add up to my way of thinking. But oh well, we have other occupations besides this.

 

[Cubes]

Der Alter,
Not a one of the verses you quoted in #104 define a third party Holy Ghost. The old "straw man" that the Holy Spirit is not a mere force like electricity, has been used for years. Trinitarians then go on to quote these verses as proof of someone with emotion, and thus make a grand leap to a third person, ergo trinity, in an effort to prove their point.

The fact is, none of these verses identify a third person. They all relate to the Father, or Son, or both, depending on the context - never a third person that exists nowhere in the Godhead, or in the Bible, but only in the minds of traditionalists.

Romans 8:14, is a case in point. The Spirit, in Romans 8, is of only two sources. Either the Spirit is the Father's Spirit or Christ's: v. 9; But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. V.10; And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin,; but the Spirit is life, because of righteousness. V.11; But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Also verse 34 describes who the intercessor is in verse 26. It is not a third person. Verse 34; Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father, through Christ, in Christians. Romans 8:6; For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

BTW, Peterson, this is very lucid and an important contribution. Thanks

 

[Simonline]

I acknowledged that Christ had glory prior to his being born on earth. My point is that whatever glory he had then, it is evident that the scriptures are saying that he is much more now, HIGHLY EXALTED. That says to me that his exaltation after his resurrection is more than it had been. Just going by the narrative.

The glory which the eternally begotten Son/Word of God shared with the other two members of the Trinity was the glory of pure Divinity. Since the Incarnation however, the second Person of the Trinity (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God) has become human (without giving up or even compromising his Divinity) and now, as the Messiah, has been highly exalted not only as a Divine Being (which is how it was before he became incarnate) but also as a human being. As Divine, (and therefore infinite) the second Person of the Trinity could not increase the amount of glory which he shared with his Father and the Holy Spirit prior to the Incarnation. The reference to his being 'highly exalted' is therefore only with reference to his humanity in that, as the Messiah (who has overcome and destroyed the power of sin and death), who is both Infinite Divine and finite human, his humanity is equal to his Divinity (which is why his humanity is now as much glorified as his Divinity was prior to the Incarnation).

I am not a "Oneness" or any thing like that. I have no name other than the fact that I am a christian, a follower of Christ. I also believe that God is one, as each of us is one, but that there is a unity b/n Christ and himself, ...just as there can be unity amongst those who love and are likeminded until we all achieve that unity in Christ who is in the Father. I see this as being the task Jesus calls his followers to besides that to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom.

According to this definition you are a Unitarian (believing that God is Unitarian (one Being - one Person) rather than Trinitarian (one Being - three Persons) in Nature. If that is the case then your definition of a Christian is not the same as that of either the Judeo-Christian Scriptures or Orthodox Conservative Evangelical Christianity, since both hold that God is Trinitarian rather than Unitarian in Nature. Furthermore the Judeo-Christian Scriptures repudiate any concept of God as Unitarian or the Messiah as a totally finite created being.

Perhaps you think that I deny or don't recognized that there is a:
1. Father
2. (His) Son
3. (His) Holy Spirit.

I do indeed acknowledge and do not deny them:

The difference b/n our belief is that:

1. I believe that YHWH/FATHER says he alone is the God above all and that there is no one beside him to whom he can be made equal. There is certainly no one above him. He is the Source of all things/Life and the giver of all good gifts. All judgment is his. He is True and is Light, and by him Christ gets many of his names/attributes.

This therefore begs the question that if God is Unitarian in Nature (as you both believe and assert) and the Bible says that God [the Father alone?] created the Creation but also says that the Messiah [the Son alone] created the Creation then which one is lying?!

If God is Trinitarian in Nature then there is no problem, but if God is Unitarian in Nature (as you assert) then either God or the Messiah is lying or the Scriptures are false (since they contradict themselves). Either way, such a duplicitous religion is to be repudiated at the first available oportunity (as surely would be by all persons of integrity)?!

2. The Holy Spirit is The Father's spirit in Source and Origin. He has given his spirit to all that are his, Christ being foremost and full of the holy spirit. He has authority to send us the holy spirit too and we have authority (if we are his) to impart the same spirit to those that are God's. Moses imparted the Spirit of wisdom to Joshua...

So by this, I recognize the Spirit of God, but I don't lose sight of the fact that he comes from the Father who is God above all and the Giver of his Spirit.

No, the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinitarian God and as such is not a sub-servient chattel of either the Father or the Son. The Three Persons are fully Divine and equally part of the One Divine Being. As the third Person of the Trinitarian God then he is simultaneously the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son (since all three Persons are part of the One Eternally Divine Being). This, for example, is how the Messiah was able to promise to his disciples that HE (i.e. the Messiah) would be with them always, even to the end of the age (Matt.28:20) since it was only by means of his non-corporeal Infinite Spirit (who, as the Third Person of the Trinitarian God, is simultaneously the omnipresent Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son) that the Messiah could ever hope to fulfil that promise simultaneously to all his disciples scattered throughout the world?! Even so, the Messiah also says that he would send another Comforter/Counsellor (Jn.14:16-18). Ordinarily (in purely human terms) this would be a contradiction but because God is Trinitarian there is no contradiction here because all three Persons are One Being and so can legitimately be spoken of in either the first Person ['I'] or third Person ['He'] without any contradiction. Notice Jn.14:16-17 speak of the Spirit as 'him' but then in verse 18 the Messiah suddenly says 'I will not leave you as orphans. I will come to you.' This obviously does not refer to the Messiah himself (as a corporeal Being) but rather to God. What the Messiah is saying here is 'I [as God] will not leave you as orphans. I [as God] will come to you.' Sure enough God kept his promise to his disciples and returned to them [by his Spirit] at Pentecost, to dwell in them forever (Matt.28:20).

3. I believe that John 1:1 declares that Christ is the word of God. That he was in the beginnning with God, that he is A God/god. Big "G" little "g", take your pick, it doesn't matter to me as Christ is Christ and is not limited or changed by the case or "a" article.

I use a because the entire body of scriptures indicate him to be not the same as the Father, and you yourselves say he is distinct, that he is a "second" person. He who is with God cannot be the same God he is with (though I realize that you disagree) ...so by simple reasoning we see that John 1:1 refers to two Gods. One God is the Father and the other is the Son.


The Son as the Word of God, Word of Life, Lamb of God, Son of God, Messiah (Anointed One), etc has his origin in the Father and does acknowledge that throughout his sayings and parables. Jesus doesn't make a claim about himself without acknowledging his Father as his head. That is what I see in all of scripture. The Apostles also acknowledge this. And our Father seeks to reconcile us to himself through his beloved son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

No. Jn.1:1 does not teach that Christ is the Word of God at all since such a belief is based upon sloppy eisegesis (reading into the Scriptures what you think it should say or what you would like it to say) rather than sound exegesis (reading from the Scriptures what it actually does say).

What Jn.1:1 actually teaches is that the Word is Eternal, the Word was with God and the Word was God (i.e.Divine). One of the numerous declarations of the Trinitarian Nature of God (to those who have eyes to see).

The Word is a reference, NOT to the Messiah (or 'Christ'), since the Messiah did not come into existence until the Incarnation, but to the eternally begotten Son of God (the second Person of the Trinity). The Messiah being the Incarnate Son of God rather than the pre-incarnate Son of God. The Divine Son of God alone is not the Messiah. The Human Jesus of Nazareth alone is not the Messiah. Only when the two natures are amalgamated into ONE PERSON does the Messiah ['Christ'] come into existence.

Furthermore the Scriptures do not teach that the Word was 'a God/god' since that would be a blatant contradiction of Isa.43:10-13 (and another reason to reject Judeo-Christianity as a 'false religion'), but rather that the Word and God were (are) one and the same Divine Being. This is the ONLY way that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves.

The entire body of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures do not, by any stretch of the imagination, teach that the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct Divine Beings, since such a thing would be an absolute impossibility. Nothing can, by the same nature, be both Divine and finite simultaneously since one cancels out the other. To be Divine you have to be Infinite. If you are finite then you cannot be Divine. The Messiah is both Divine and finite because he has two natures (hypostatic union), one Divine and the other human. That is the ONLY way that the Messiah can be both Divine and finite simultaneously (the only Being that can).

The Scriptures actually teach that whilst the Persons are different and distinct, the Being is ONE and the same (Deut.6:4).

So to summarize, the scriptures weren't kidding when they said that the Father/GOD is above all, and that is what I acknowledge when I say that God is One, not that there is no such person as Christ or that God has no Spirit.

But the Scriptures dont teach that the Father alone is above all. That's just your misinterpretation of the Scriptural evidence. The Scriptures teach that God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is above all. With respect, you condemn yourself not by what you acknowledge but by what you deny, namely, the Trinitarian Nature of God and that in spite of all the Scriptural evidence which clearly teaches such (some of which I have endeavoured to show here on this post).

I acknowledge that the Father is One as a single entity.
That the Son is one entity and in union with His Father through the Spirit.
That we each is one entity who through the spirit of God are one with another in the Son and so One with the Father as we submit to the will of God. That is what we see at the end of the Book in Revelation and what is meant by "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus."


If you disagree, that is fine.

With respect, I do most certainly disagree since what you claim to believe is at complete variance with the Judeo-Christian Scriptures (as I have demonstrated Q.E.D.). My prayer is that God will reveal his truth to you so that your eyes might be opened and you might realize the glory of the true Trinitarian Nature of God.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

I had hoped that I would not be understood as appealing to intellect alone, or academics, but also to wisdom and the insight given by the spirit of God or "divine revelation" as you put it which is why I cited Is 1:18 and not a textbook.

No. You appealed to logic. I simply pointed out that even logic has its limitations and should not be used as the final arbiter on all matters of faith and theology. It is the Judeo-Christian Scriptures that are our final arbiter on all matters of faith and practise, not sin-impared human logic or intellect (Jer.17:9).

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, forever.
Also who being in the FORM of God....
So I take the exaltation to encompass him entirely: Son of God/Son of Man Not just one of the two. Anyway, that is how I understand it. He suffered and died as the Son of God/Son of Man, arose and ascended and now reigns as Lord of all, being HIGHLY EXALTED. So I make no separation. I only know that He is Lord of all and I bow my knee to him.

Heb.13.8 is another reference only to the Divine Nature of the Messiah (though this is not stated explicitly but reason dictates that it cannot refer to his human nature since, unlike his Divine Nature, his human nature is neither Eternal nor Immutable).

Phil.2:6 actually says 'nature' [Gk. phusis] whereas verse 7 says 'form' [Gk. morphe] not 'nature' [Gk. phusis] as the N.I.V. has mistranslated it when the 'translators' sacrificed translation on the altar of theological interpretation. The passage says that although the eternally begotten Son/Word of God was [by Nature] Divine [having the same glorified form as the rest of the Divinity] he did not consider the form in which he was manifest to be of primary importance and therefore was willing to give it up [but only the form of manifestation, not his Nature as Divine since, being Immutable, he could neither change it nor give it up]. Thus, having given up his form as glorified God, he then Incarnated and became a human being, taking on the form of a servant.

Thus, when he returned back to the Father in Heaven he did not simply revert back to his pre-incarnate form but was, as the Messiah, both Divine and human, glorified by his Father. Thus the honour of being 'highly exalted' referred to his human nature since his Divine Nature (as part of the one Divine Being) was always 'highly exalted' above every creature (since that's what it means to be Divine). Since the Incarnation however, the Messiah wasn't just Divine Creator (i.e. the eternally begotten Son/Word of God) but also human creature (i.e. Jesus of Nazareth) as well. Therefore, when the Divine Creator was highly exalted (as befits his rank and status as God) then so was the human creature (Jesus of Nazareth) since it was as One Person - the Messiah that he conquered Sin and Death, therefore, it was only right that it be as One Person (Creator and creature combined) that God should highly exalt him. But it was only the human creature (rather than the Divine Creator) who's rank and status within the created order had changed as a result of the exaltation following the ascension. This is why the Scriptures emphasis the exaltation from the human perspective rather than the Divine perspective (and because we are human and not Divine).

You are correct to acknowledge the Messiah to be One Person and to relate to him as such but that doesn't alter the fact that his exaltation is more significant for the Messiah as a human (and for us too) than it is for him as Divine, since, as Divine he is simply reverting back to his pre-incarnate manifestation (i.e. the glorified manifestation of God) but the Messiah, as human, has never been in that position before, which is why the exaltation is more significant for him as a human being that it is for him as Divine.

Well, Simonline, what else is to be said? God knows. Anyone who is not clear about what I said or meant may surely reread my post

Your explanation as to Christ's humanity being that which is highly exalted also leaves me with more questions than I started out with..

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it was only his humanity that was exalted since that would not be correct. It was the Messiah, as both Divine and human, who was (is) 'highly exalted'. But the exaltation was more significant for his humanity than it was for his Divinity.

The Most High GOD/YHWH who is exalted above all and worshiped by all who are not rebels and of the devil comes to earth. He became a man and accomplished his mission, and then becomes highly exalted so that all men should call him Lord? It still doesn't add up to my way of thinking. But oh well, we have other occupations besides this.

Like I said before, the correct understanding of the Trinity is more a matter of Divine revelation (1Cor.2:6-16) than trying to work it out in your head using only sin-impared human reasoning and logic. My advice to you and anyone else who is earnestly seeking after the Truth is to get down on your knees and ask for revelation. Then you might really know what it is to have 'the mind of Christ'?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

BTW, Peterson, this is very lucid and an important contribution. Thanks

Not really. It's just another obstinate refusal to accept what is plainly evident for all to see (Matt.13:14-15). After all, why does the Messiah refer to the Holy Spirit as 'He' (Jn.16:7-15) if it is simply the 'mind of God the Father' (is the Messiah then saying that his Father is schizophrenic)?!

How does one lie to something which is non-personal (Acts.5:3-4), or is this yet another example of the Father's schizophrenia?!

Simonline.

 

[Peterson]

How does one lie to something which is non-personal (Acts.5:3-4), or is this yet another example of the Father's schizophrenia?!

Simonline.[/QUOTE]

Acts 5:4; (Last sentence) Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God (Father).
Ananias wasn't just trying to pull a fast one on Peter and the other apostles. His sin was lying to God the Father. In other words, he didn't have the Spirit of the Father in him, but instead the lying cheating spirit of the flesh, while trying to exhibit an attitude of being in a Godly Spirit.

Also verse 32; And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God (Father) hath given to them that obey him. The Father's Spirit does not reside in those who refuse to put aside their human nature (carnal Spirit).

 

[gort]

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

You forgot verse 3, Peterson. How does one lie to the "mind" of God?

I must also point out that ("Father") is your addition to verse 4.

<><

 

[Simonline]

How does one lie to something which is non-personal (Acts.5:3-4), or is this yet another example of the Father's schizophrenia?!

Simonline.

Acts 5:4; (Last sentence) Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God (Father).
Ananias wasn't just trying to pull a fast one on Peter and the other apostles. His sin was lying to God the Father. In other words, he didn't have the Spirit of the Father in him, but instead the lying cheating spirit of the flesh, while trying to exhibit an attitude of being in a Godly Spirit.

Also verse 32; And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God (Father) hath given to them that obey him. The Father's Spirit does not reside in those who refuse to put aside their human nature (carnal Spirit).

Once again, you are forcing your own personal theological presuppositions onto the text.

Peter expressly and unequivocally states "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit....you have not lied to men but to God."

If God is not Trinitarian as you insist and that the Holy Spirit is simply the non-personal 'spirit' 'energy', 'power' or 'force' of God ['the Father' (?!)] (in spite of all the Scriptural evidence to the contrary) then Peter would have said "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Father....you have not lied to men but to God." but he did not say that, did he?! He said "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit....you have not lied to men but to God."!

To ignore the clear Scriptural evidence in order to blindly and dogmatically assert your own false teaching is nothing short of the height of both deceit and dishonesty, in which case is there really any point in continuing to try and reason with you since your mind is clearly (for all the world to see) hermetically sealed against the Truth.

Simonline.

 

[Der Alte]

More on the personality of the Holy Spirit. This is one section of an approximately 200+ page article on the Trinity. Link at the bottom.

The Trinity (IVa)
The NT Witness: The Personality of the Holy Spirit

Introduction
In this section, I intend to examine the NT data relative to the Holy Spirit-- traditionally considered to be an agent within the Trinity. I will focus on several specific issues:
1. His Individual personality
2. His distinction from God the Father

One of the major challenges will be the relative paucity of the data (relative to Jesus) concerning this Person. This is somewhat predictable from the descriptions of the operations of the Spirit:
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. (John 16.13ff)

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. (I Peter 1.10ff)

Notice that the Holy Spirit has/had a very Christo-centric ministry. (Interestingly, Christ had a 'Patri-centric' ministry--cf. LPJG:102.) If one of his main functions was to 'reveal the things of Christ,' then we would EXPECT much more biblical data on Jesus than we would on the Holy Spirit. (There is certainly enough data to put together an adequate view of the Spirit, for there are several key beliefs in the Judeo-Christian system that depend CRITICALLY on the attributes and operations of the Spirit.)
In the case of the Holy Spirit, we have a different 'problem' than we had with the Son of God. Whereas in the case of Jesus, whose DISTINCTION from the Father was obvious, the OPPOSITE will be the case with the Spirit--He will be perhaps difficult to distinguish from the Father.

Also, in the case of Jesus, His personality was not really under question; but, in the case of the Holy Spirit, we will perhaps have to be sure to cover the 'Personal agent vs. Impersonal Force of God' question in more detail.
The "good news" is that, due to the close association of the Father and the Spirit, we won't have to put too much attention to the DEITY of the Spirit--the battles in pneumatology are fought elsewhere.

The Personality/Consciousness/Agency of the Holy Spirit
The first point we need to make here is a methodological one: what method and criteria are we to use to 'decide' if the "Holy Spirit" textual phenomena in the NT more accurately describe a personal agent OR an impersonal force?

Bickersteth says it this way (BTT:124):
Now if, altogether apart from this investigation, you had been asked to name those qualities which evidence personal existence, you would have been quite content to answer: Show me that which has mind, and affection, and will, which can act, and speak, and direct; and that sentient, loving, determining agent, speaker and ruler, must possess personality, or personality cannot exist.

But it MAY be a bit more complex than that--in my opinion. To invoke 'Christian Skepticism' we are going to have to find possible alternate understandings of these passages perhaps.

It just won't be as simple as finding a text or two in which personal traits are ascribed to the Spirit(!), for two reasons:

• The Holy Spirit COULD be a 'force' that is PERSONIFIED in a given text (e.g. Is 55.12: You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.--the trees are given personal characteristics, as a picture of the universal celebration of YHWH's kingdom.)
• We would STILL need to explain those passages that perhaps describes the Spirit in impersonal terms.
So, how can we proceed?
Well, it seems a little obvious that we have to AT LEAST make sure personal characteristics are ascribed to the Spirit (a la Bickersteth), and to see how extensive these are. So, let's start by listing some of the data points ascribing personal/agency attributes to the Spirit.
3. Passages that demonstrate the nurturing, teaching, and intellectual actions of the Spirit:
• He speaks--
• Mark 13.11: Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
• Acts 1.16: and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus
• Acts 13.2: While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
• Heb 3.7: So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice,
• Acts 8.29: The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
• Acts 10.19: While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you.
• Acts 11.12: The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them.
• I Tim 4.1: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits
• Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (6x)
• Rev 14:13: Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
• Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!"

• He warns--Acts 20.23: I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me.
• He reveals/predicts--
• Luke 2.26: It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
• Heb 9.8: The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.
• John 16.15: That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
• I Pet 1.11: trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

• He teaches/reminds--
• Luke 12.12: for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."
• John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
• I Cor 2.13: This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit,
• John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

• He enables/helps--
• Acts 2.4: began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
• Phil 1.19: for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.
• Rom 8.26: In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

• He witnesses/testifies--
• Acts 5.32: We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
• Heb 10.15: The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
• John 15.26: "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
• Romans 8.16: The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
• I Tim 3.16: Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit,
• I John 5.6: And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

• He encourages--Acts 9.31: Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.
• He counsels--John 14-17 (4x): e.g. John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever
• He knows--I Cor 2.11: In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
• He prays for us--Rom 8.26,27: In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
• He has a mind(!)--Rom 8.27: And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit
• He is ALIVE--
• John 14.17: the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
• Romans 8.9:You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
• Romans 8.11:And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
• I Cor 3.16: Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
• Eph 2.22:And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
• 2 Tim 1.14: Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you -- guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
• 1 John 3.24:Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

4.
5. Passages that describe the Spirit as a volitional agent with decision-making authority.
• He leads--
• Luke 4.1: Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert,
• Rom 8.14: because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
• Luke 2.27: Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts.

• He selects Christian workers for specific actions and positions--
• Acts 13.2: While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
• Acts 20.28: Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.

• He dispatches Christian workers--Acts 13.4: The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit,
• He evaluations/makes decisions--
• Acts 15.28: It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us
• I Cor 12.11: All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

• He directs--
• Acts 16.6: Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia.
• Acts 16.7: When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.
• Acts 8.39: When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away,
• Acts 8.29: The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

6.
7. Our actions to Him and His responses to us indicate a personal agent.
• He can be lied to--Acts 5:3: Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit
• He can be resisted--Acts 7.51: "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
• He can be tested--Acts 5.9: Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord?
• He can be grieved--Eph 4.30: And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
• He can be blasphemed--Mark 3.29: But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven;
• He can be fellowshipped with--
• 2 Cor 13:14:May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
• Phil 2.1:If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit,

8. Passages that use personal pronouns in referring to the Spirit
This issue concerns the Greek term for 'Spirit'--pneuma. Strictly speaking, as a neuter noun it SHOULD be referred to by NEUTER pronouns (e.g. 'it' instead of 'he' or 'she'). But there are a number of passages in which the masculine pronouns (sometimes EMPHATICALLY masculine pronouns--cf. Jn 14.26) are used in referring to the Spirit, giving more support to a "Personal Agency" understanding of Him, than to an "Impersonal Force" understanding.
Let's just note a few of these:
• John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
• John 15.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
• John 16.7: But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
• John 16.8: When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
• John 16.13: But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
• John 16.14: He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
• Eph 1.13,14: And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance

9. The Spirit is compared to Christ
The point of this is that the Spirit is said to be a 'replacement' of some 'equality' to the departed Christ--indicating some type of personal intimacy with His followers:
• John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth. [Commentators point out that the word 'another' is the Greek word 'allos'--meaning 'another of the SAME kind', as opposed to 'heteros'--meaning 'another of a DIFFERENT kind']
• John 16.7: But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. [This would be a SMALL consolation to the grieving disciples if the Spirit were an impersonal power--no matter HOW powerful.]

10. The Spirit appears in co-ordinate statements with other DIVINE Personal Agents
This evidence supports the contention that the Spirit was understood to be a personal agent--He is referred to with OTHER personal agents in co-ordinate statements. There is NOTHING in these passages to suggest that the Spirit, unlike the Father and the Son in the statements, is NOT to be considered a personal Agent as they.
• Matt 28:19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
• 2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
• John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- 17 the Spirit of truth.
• I Peter 1.2: who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
• I Cor 12.4-6: There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

SUMMARY: The term "Holy Spirit" and "Spirit of God" (and parallel terms) appears in a wide variety of statements in the NT. In many of these statements and contexts, this term APPEARS to be denoting a fully conscious/fully personal/fully alive agent. This Agent is said to speak, warn, reveal, predict, teach, remind, enable, help, witness, testify, encourage, counsel, know, and pray. This Agent is apparently invested with active authority over the mission of God--leading, selecting workers for tasks, selecting workers for positions of authority, dispatching workers, evaluating situations, making decisions about distribution of spiritual gifts, 'steering' and directing. Even though the grammar would predict otherwise, this Agent is referred to by non-neuter personal pronouns in several situations (i.e. 'he'). Human interactions with this agent are best categorized as "inter-personal"--we can lie to the Spirit, resist Him, test Him, grieve Him (notice the inner emotional capacity of the Spirit), blaspheme Him. Christ seems to view the Spirit as a 'suitable', non-localized replacement for His earthly, localized presence among the disciples. Finally, the Spirit is used in co-ordinate statements with the other Divine Personal Agents (i.e. Father, Son) in such a way as to suggest the possession of Personality/Consciousness.

It should be noted at this point (prior to really analyzing the probability that the Spirit is simply a personification of an influence/operation of the Father) that the above data points are surprisingly extensive, varied, and consistent. Most personifications are not this robust nor are maintained so pervasively throughout the breadth of literature (e.g. 'love' in I Cor 13--it is rarely used in such a personified way elsewhere). This will create a strong presumption in favor of the impersonal passages being derivative upon the personal--AND NOT VICE VERSA. In other words, it is beginning to look like it makes more sense to understand passages like "poured out the Spirit" as referring to the operations of the Personal Agent the Spirit, than it is to take "grieve not the Holy Spirit" as a personification of God's power...but more on this later.
..................................................................................................................
The Distinction from God the Father

This is the area that we need to be the most diligent in thinking carefully. We will find many, many passages in which God the Father acts THROUGH the agency of the Spirit (e.g. Acts 4.25: "You (the Father) spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant David..."), and these passages may suggest to us that the Spirit is nothing more than a 'localized extension' of God (mystically speaking), much like the 'hand of the Lord' (Acts 11.21: The Lord's hand was with them,).
Now, let me hasten to add that cases of INSTRUMENTAL AGENCY (i.e. the Father doing something through the Spirit as His instrument) do not necessarily constitute evidence for the 'identity' of the Father and Spirit, since PERSONAL AGENCY (i.e. the Father having the Person the Spirit do something under His direction) would be expressed in the same linguistic form.
What this means for our study is that we will need to find passages in which we CANNOT replace the "Sprit"-term with the "God the Father" term, and the passage STILL retain its meaning and force.

Let's look at several types of data in this regard.
6. The 'Dispatching' passages. These passages highlight the fact that the Spirit can be 'moved' from 'with the Father' to other 'locations' (however complex we find that concept!). If the Father stays stationary and yet sends the Spirit from Him to Us (for example), this would indicate SOME KIND of distinction between the Father and the Spirit.
There are, of course, many such passages--a few of which I will cite below.
• Lk 11.13: If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
• Acts 10.45: The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
• Acts 15.8: God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
• I Cor 6.19: Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?
• I Thess 4.8: Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
• 2 Cor 1.22: set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
• Gal 3.5: Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
• Gal 4.6: Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
• I John 4.13: We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
• John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever

Notice that this ONLY shows a distinction between the Sender and the "Sendee"--it makes no claims about the personality of the Sendee (e.g. God sent His voice and sent His word--but THEY are not Personal Agents--but they ARE DISTINCT from the Father) NOR about the deity of the "Sendee" (e.g. God sent angels to do His bidding, but they, although personal, are NOT deity). We have given strong evidence in the section above for the PERSONALITY of the Spirit; we will produce data for the DEITY of the Spirit later. All we have to do in this section is show that the Spirit is DISTINCT "enough" from the Father to be appropriately called an 'Agent'.
7. The various names of 'Spirit of God' do NOT appear to be simple metonymy (a literary device in which one thing is referred to by the name of something typically associated with it--e.g. 'throne' for authority--cf. LIB:136f) for the 'power of God' or 'love of God' or some other 'influence*.* of God'.

If the Spirit WERE not a Person, but rather a simple alternate designation for some influence of God, we WOULD NOT expect to find the following kinds of passages, in which BOTH the Spirit AND the possible influences are co-ordinately named:
• [not identical with power of God]--Rom 15.13: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. [would it make sense to say 'the power of the power'?!]
• [not identical with power of God]--Acts 1.8: But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; ["you will receive power when the power comes on you"?]
• [not identical with love of God]--2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. ["the love of God and the fellowship of the love of God"?!]
• [not identical with power of God]--Acts 10.38: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, ["God anointed Jesus with power and with power..."?!]
• [not identical with love of God]--Rom 5.5: because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. ["God poured his love into our hearts by his love..."?!]
• [not identical with power of God]--Luke 4.14: Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, ["Jesus returned in the power of the power..."?]
• [not identical with power of God]--Rom 15.19: by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit. ["by the power..., through the power..."?]
• [not identical with power of God]--Gal 4.29: At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. [ "by the power of the power..."]

We must conclude on the basis of the data, that the term 'Spirit of God' is NOT a metonymy for the 'Power of God' or the 'love of God'.
8. That the Spirit of God is DISTINCT from God the Father can also be seen by trying to 'substitute' the term 'God the Father' in all the passages in which the Holy Spirit is present. While this would not be a problem in ALL verses, in certain passages it makes no sense at all--indeed, it makes "anti-sense" of the passage.

Note especially that the "Father sends/gives/pours out/etc. the Spirit" passages (above) make absolutely NO practical sense--"the Father sends/gives/pours out/etc. the Father"?! The terms are simply NOT EVEN CLOSE to being identical in referent. In addition to the 'dispatching' verses above, compare:
• Rom 15.16: so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. ["acceptable to God, sanctified by God"?]
• 2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. ["the grace of Jesus, the love of God, and the fellowship of God"?!
• 2 Pet 1.21: For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. ["men spoke from God as they were carried along by God..."]
• I Cor 2.11: For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. ["no one knows the thoughts of God except God"...sorta destroys the whole passage!]
• Eph 2.18: For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. ["Access to the Father by one Father.."?!]

In addition to the above, we might add the passages in which God calls the Spirit 'his Spirit'. Certainly, the word 'God' or 'Father' cannot be substituted in these texts either!
• Rom 8.11: And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
• I Cor 2.10: but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. [God searches the deep things of God?]
• 2 Cor 1.22: and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, [He put HIMSELF in our hearts as a deposit?]
• Gal 3.5: Does God give you his Spirit
• Eph 2.22: And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. ["in which God lives by Himself..."?!
• Eph 3.16: he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit ["He may strengthen you with power through Himself..."?]

The point is this: the literary and linguistic usage of the terms for the Spirit of God demonstrate that they are neither uses of metonymy nor circumlocutions for God. Somehow, those terms (e.g. Spirit of God, Holy Spirit) refer to "something" DISTINCT from God the Father (in some meaningful sense).

9. The 'Spirit of Christ' passages also support the idea that the Holy Spirit is/was distinct from the Father.
The evidence here we have to deal with concerns the implications of those passages that refer to the Holy Spirit as being the "Spirit of Jesus", the "Spirit of Christ", or "Spirit of the Son". Although these passages are probably good supports for the deity of Christ, our intent is to recognize that this differentiation between the "Spirit of Christ" and "the Spirit of God" indicates some kind of distinction between the Spirit and the Father. In other words, if the Spirit is said to be 'of Christ'--who was OBVIOUSLY distinct from the Father--then we have good grounds for understanding that the Spirit which is BOTH 'of Christ' AND 'of God' is DISTINCT FROM BOTH OF THEM!
• Acts 16.7: When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.
• Romans 8.9: You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
• Gal 4.6: Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
• Phil 1.19: for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.
• I Pet 1.11: trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Although these passages seem 'odd' to us (and will be examined more closely when we look at relations between the multiple Agents in the Godhead), they certainly lend weight to the thesis that the Spirit is distinct from the Father.
10. The existence of multiple terms of referring to the Spirit--other than 'My Spirit' and 'His Spirit'--which were used consistently throughout the NT, indicates that God's Spirit was generally considered as 'distinct' from God the Father in heaven. (This is even apart from the highly personal term 'Comforter' or 'Counselor' in John 14-16!)
I find it especially suggestive that the phrases "THE Holy Spirit" and "THE Spirit" became the standard designators for the Spirit of God. Jesus and the early church consistently refer to this Agent under these names, INSTEAD of names that might have indicated a literary device (e.g. synecdoche--part for the whole). Compare the approximate frequencies:
• "The Holy Spirit" (87 times!)
• "The Spirit" (8 times)
• "The Spirit of God" (10 times)
• "The Spirit of Jesus/Christ/his Son" (5 times)
• "The Spirit of the Lord" (4 times)
• "his Spirit" (7 times)
• "my Spirit"(3 times--all quoting the OT!)

[Note: this data is consistent with OT data as well. In the OT we have approximately 82 texts which use the "The" terms, and only 17 that use the "my/his" terms.]
It is difficult to account for this pervasive and stylized usage WITHOUT assuming that those inside redemptive history experienced this Agent as a distinct personal entity--separate from God the Father.
11. There are a few passages that portray (often rather vividly) personal interactions between the Father and the Spirit. As such, these passages constitute VERY STRONG data for a personal DISTINCTION between the two.
• John 16.13-15:
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
NOTICE: The Spirit 'hears' things from the Father--this is clearly personal interaction (just like Christ in John 12.49; 3.32; 7.16ff; 8.38).

• Romans 8.26-27:
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

NOTICE: The Spirit PRAYS TO THE FATHER!--You cannot get more personal interaction than that! And, the Father knows the 'mind of the Spirit'--there is a strong statement of personal relationship and distinction--one Mind knowing another Mind!

• I Cor 2.10-12:
but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

NOTICE: The Spirit searches the 'deep things of God'--sorta the reciprocal personal relation we saw in Romans 8! The Spirit knows the thoughts of God--again, a strong cognitive-aspect relationship between two Knowers.

• Gal 4.6:
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
NOTICE: The Spirit PRAYS TO the Father--"calling out, 'Father.'" Prayer is intensely interpersonal.

• Eph 2.18:
For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

NOTICE: Access to the Father is NOT access TO the Spirit, but THROUGH the Spirit. The two are highly distinct. Other passages that talk about 'through the Spirit' are generally referring to an action of God TOWARD US--in other words, God does 'something' THROUGH the Spirit. In such passages, one could argue that the Spirit was simply an instrumental agency of God (not necessarily a distinct agent). But in THIS PASSAGE, the direction is from US to God--and there is NO WAY the Holy Spirit can be considered an 'extension' of us! Hence, it provides evidence for a distinction between the Father (the 'Accessed') and the Spirit ('the means of accessing').

Heb 9.14:
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

[NOTICE: This passage is similar to the above, in that the direction is TOWARDS the Father. It might be argued that this is another of the 'Spirit of Christ' passages (so that the Spirit COULD be seen as an 'extension' of Christ, perhaps), but the OT practice of 'washing/cleansing' the sacrifices (used in NT 'spiritual' cases--cf. Romans 15.16) is probably the backdrop here. This would mean that the Spirit in this passage was a MEANS of 'reaching' the Father, and therefore DISTINCT from the Father.
12.
13.
14. SUMMARY: We have examined the linguistic data about the Spirit of God and conclude that the textual references to the Spirit are NOT cases of metonymy, synecdoche, or personification--that they DO indicate an Agent that is distinct from God the Father. This can be seen in the active distinctions portrayed in the passages in which the Father sends or gives the Spirit, and attempted substitutions of God/Father terms for Spirit terms render most passages silly, useless, or senseless. The link between the Spirit and Jesus Christ also indicates a structural distinction between the Father and the Spirit. Linguistic patterns of referring to the Spirit under the individualistic terms like 'the Spirit' or 'the Holy Spirit'--as opposed to possible synecdochal terms like "my Spirit" or "His Spirit" seems to indicate an awareness on the part of the Biblical writers of a 'real' distinction between the Father and the Spirit.
15. Indeed, this distinction is seen most clearly in those passages which illustrate the Spirit in personal interaction with the Father--obviously far beyond the possibilities of metonymy and personification. He prays to the Father, knows the Father, listens to the Father, calls out to the Father, brings us to the Father, and lifted up the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to the Father.
16.
17. Overall, the data is abundant, varied, consistent, and occurs in a wide range of literature and genre. And the conclusion is strong: this Counselor/Comforter/Helper that Jesus promised us is indeed a Personal Agent--sent by the Father, distinct from the Father--to bring life, truth, sweetness, healing, direction, and the many benefits of the grace of God to us.
18.
19. The Christian ThinkTank...[http://www.christian-thinktank.com] (Reference Abbreviations)
​

 

[Carpenter0325]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here, I am carrying over a heated discussion we are having on another forum.

I have just one single question for those individuals who embrace the doctrine of the Trinity.

The OPs I speak with insist absolutely and with no doubt that the doctrine of the Trinity forces an individual to believe in Three Gods.

So I would like to ask, do Trinitarians really believe in three Gods like my cohorts on the OP forum believe? They are very careful using the wor tritheism, but that is really what they assume.

Thanks!!!!

Bill

 

[Cubes]

Dear Friends of the Trinitarian Camp,


I am going to read the scriptures that have been posted especially by DA. Thank you, DA, for posting the actual scriptures. I haven't read them (just perused) but plan to within the next several days. Simonline I read your responses from yesterday and would address some of them also later... I don't expect to respond till around next week when hopefully I would have had time to read all the scriptures you all presented. In the meantime, I am posting these other scriptures to show why I believe the Holy Spirit to be the Father's Spirit, and why Peterson is not wrong in his interpretation of the scripture from Acts 5.

Also, you may want to examine whether or not by these scriptures YHWH is the Father as I believe him to be.


Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your *understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling,what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

2 Cor 3:2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]?


Isa 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians [are] men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.

Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him?

Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Exd 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all [that are] wise hearted, whom I HAVE FILLED with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister UNTO ME in the priest's office.

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Deu 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Exd 1:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

1 Cor 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities,but it is the same God who works all in all.

Acts 2.17
" 'And it shall be in the last days' God says',that I will pour out MY SPIRIT on all mankind"


Can any one deny that the Spirit is the Spirit of God?
Can any one deny that God is referring to YHWH/LORD of Hosts/Father?
Who wants to make a claim that YHWH is Christ?

Let's just stick to the scriptures and let them do the explaining. Thanks all.