TRINITARIANS: A Question about the Holy Spirit?

[repentandbelieve]

Hi r & b,

Jesus is my lord and saviour. i have no problem with his divinity.
and there is no contradiction with the first commandment.

all worships goes to the Father, the one true God through Jesus Christ.
if we worship Jesus he will accept it but eventually give it to the father.
THe father gave all power and authority on earth, that includes to recieve worship in his behalf.

We actually have very much in common.
It is my belief that the finite mind of man is incapable of fully compehending the infinite God or fully understand how the Father (or life giver) created all things through Christ.

In keeping with the Spirit of unity and the bond of peace, I prefer to focus on those things in which we share a common belief. God is infinite and all powerful. He is able to manifest Himself in any form He chooses. A burning bush to Moses, a blinding light to Saul.

In keeping with this theology, I see no reason that God could not present Himself in the form of a human being.

 

[hypernike]

Yes bro, that's why i prefer the Apostle's Creed. It is something my finite mind is capable of understanding ...

 

[hypernike]

nice thread you got going here.

but on my way to registering, i can't believe you need to agree with the Nicene creed to call yourself as a christian.

anyway just drop by to say hello.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]You posted and I quote[/SIZE]

“1 Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Or we can say the same thing in one word, Trinity”. end of quote.

[size=-1]This is exactly what I’m talking about, der. The father the word and the holy spirit is not the same as trinity. The father the word and the holy spirit is the father the word and the holy spirit. Can you see the simplicity of this argument?[/size]

No I can't see the simplicity in your argument. You obviously have no idea what the word Trinity means. You then go on to explain what you mean by Bible, another word that does not appear in scripture.

[SIZE=-1]When I say the bible, I mean the books from genesis to revelation and its essential message (the whole counsel of God) with regards to man and the unfolding salvation history. I believe that this should only be the authoritative basis of discussion on matters of Christian doctrines otherwise its futile, because we will have no common reference to agree upon. But of course you knew that already.[/SIZE]

So why do you find it so hard to understand my explanation of the word Trinity? It expresses in one word the meaning conveyed by the 22 words of 1 John 5:7.

[SIZE=-1]My problem with trinity is the declaration of equality of the father to Jesus Christ, when its plain in the book of John (in Jesus own words) that.. “The Father is greater than me.”[/SIZE]

The problem you have with the Trinity is the same that every other anti-Trinitarian has with it. First they have no idea what Christians who believe in the doctrine, actually believe, and second, they as you have just done, base their arguments on a few out-of-context proof texts.

Read Philippians 2:6-11. Jesus EXISTING in the morphe of God thought his BEING (then and there reality) EQUAL WITH GOD, not something to be grasped but humbled Himself and took upon himself the form of a servant, and made himself in the likeness of men. He made Himself a servant and a man, what was He before? See John 1:14, the Word acting upon Himself became flesh.

[SIZE=-1]But of course you can always give me links upon links to explain this with proposition upon proposition until the co-equality of the creed is justified. But really if you take this scripture with a child like heart, it’s very easy to see that they are contradictory.[/SIZE]

In addition to links to my posts and scores of articles on the topic, I can also give you a Bible that doesn't mean you will read it. I strongly suspect you will do just as you have done, you have your handful of proof texts and anything that might upset your applecart and prove you wrong, you won't even read.

[SIZE=-1]If Jesus would not consider himself equal with the Father for whatever reasons, could we not take his word at face value and accept and believe it, if we profess to be followers of our lord Jesus? Do we have to disagree with Jesus words on this because our doctrine asserts otherwise? Is the doctrine of trinity greater than Jesus?[/SIZE]

If Jesus had openly and plainly said, "I am equal to God. or "I am God," what would have happened? The Jews tried to stone Him several times for saying He was the son of God. And they finally crucified Him for saying He was the Son of the Most High and they would see Him sitting on the right hand of power.

If anyone proclaims a Jesus, based on their few out-of-context proof texts and ignoring many, many scriptures, then that is a different Jesus and not the Son of God. Read or don't I posted many scriptures which show that Jesus IS God.

 

[Der Alte]

If Mohhamad will not go to the mountain, then the mountain will come to Mohammad. For and understanding of the Trinity read this. If you want to discuss or criticize the Trinity, this is it, not what you may have been told by someone who was not a Trinitarian.

Note, Jews are definitely non-Trinitarians, and if a Jewish reference work can accurately and correctly summarize the doctrine of the Trinity, it should be a piece of cake for anyone who claims to be a Christian.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Trinity \Trin"i*ty\, n. [OE. trinitee, F. trinit['e], L. trinitas, fr. trini three each. See Trinal.]

1. (Christian Theol.) The union of three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality.

A Brief Definition of the Trinity
by James White

It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.

The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.

NOTE: We are not saying that the Father is the Son, or the Son the Spirit, or the Spirit the Father. It is very common for people to misunderstand the doctrine as to mean that we are saying Jesus is the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity does not in any way say this!

The three Biblical doctrines that flow directly into the river that is the Trinity are as follows:

1) There is one and only one God, eternal, immutable.
2) There are three eternal Persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These Persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.
3) The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully deity---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

One could possibly represent this as follows:

he three sides of the triangle represent the three Biblical doctrines, as labeled. When one denies any of these three teachings, the other two sides point to the result. Hence, if one denies that there are Three Persons, one is left with the two sides of Full Equality and One God, resulting in the "Oneness" teaching of the United Pentecostal Church and others. If one denies Fully Equality, one is left with Three Persons and One God, resulting in "subordinationism" as seen in Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way International, etc. (though to be perfectly accurate the Witnesses deny all three of the sides in some way---they deny Full Equality (i.e., Jesus is Michael the Archangel), Three Persons (the Holy Spirit is an impersonal, active "force" like electricity) and One God (they say Jesus is "a god"---a lesser divinity than Yahweh; hence they are in reality not monotheists but henotheists). And, if one denies One God, one is left with polytheism, the belief in many gods, as seen clearly in the Mormon Church, the most polytheistic religion I have encountered.

http://www.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

Definition of the Trinity (Triunity) of God
Trinity: Webster’s dictionary gives the following definition of trinity: “The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality).” Synonyms sometimes used are triunity, trine, triality. The term “trinity” is formed from “tri,” three, and “nity,” unity. Triunity is a better term than “trinity” because it better expresses the idea of three in one. God is three in one. Hypostases is the plural of hypostasis which means “the substance, the underlying reality, or essence.”
Ryrie writes:

A definition of the Trinity is not easy to construct. Some are done by stating several propositions. Others err on the side either of oneness or threeness. One of the best is Warfield’s: “There is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence.”13

Person: In speaking of the Triunity, the term “person” is not used in same way it is in ordinary usage in which it means an identity completely distinct from other persons. Actually the word persons tends to detract from the unity of the Trinity. According to the teaching of Scripture, the three Persons are inseparable, interdependent, and eternally united in one Divine Being.

It is evident that the word “person” is not ideal for the purpose. Orthodox writers have struggled over this term. Some have opted for the term subsistence (the mode or quality of existence), hence, “God has three substances.” Most have continued to use persons because we have not been able to find a better term. “The word substance speaks of God’s essential nature or being and subsistence describes His mode or quality of existence.”14

Essence: In its theological usage, essence refers to “the intrinsic or indispensable, permanent, and inseparable qualities that characterize or identify the being of God.” The words triunity and trinity are used to refer to the fact that the Bible speaks of one God, but attributes the characteristics of God to three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of the trinity states that there is one God who is one in essence or substance, but three in personality. This does not mean three independent Gods existing as one, but three Persons who are co-equal, co-eternal, inseparable, interdependent, and eternally united in one absolute Divine Essence and Being.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=215

The Athanasian Creed follows, taken from Schaff's work:

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. But this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity, and trinity in unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons; nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father: another of the Son: another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one: the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father is uncreated: the Son is uncreated: the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
9. The Father is immeasurable: the Son is immeasurable: the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
10. The Father is eternal: the Son eternal: the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet there are not three eternals; but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated: nor three immeasurable: but one uncreated, and one immeasurable.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty: the Son almighty: and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet there are not three almighties: but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God: the Son is God: and the Holy Spirit is God.
16. And yet there are not three Gods; but one God.
17. So the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord:
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none; neither created; nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone: not made; nor created; but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son: not made; neither created; nor begotten; but proceeding.
24. Thus there is one father, not three Fathers: one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.
28. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation, that we believe also rightly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. Now the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
31. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds: and Man, of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God: perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead: inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.
34. And although He be God and Man; yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance; but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ.
38. Who suffered for our salvation: descended into Hades: rose again the third day from the dead.
39. He ascended into heaven. He sits on the right hand of God, the Father almighty:
40. From whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men must rise again with their bodies;
42. And shall give account for their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; but they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ101.HTM

International Standard Bible Dictionary-1. The Term “Trinity”:

. . .we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. . . The doctrine of the Trinity lies in Scripture in solution; when it is crystallized from its solvent it does not cease to be Scriptural, but only comes into clearer view. Or, to speak without figure, the doctrine of the Trinity is given to us in Scripture, not in formulated definition, but in fragmentary allusions; when we assemble the disjecta membra into their organic unity, we are not passing from Scripture, but entering more thoroughly into the meaning of Scripture.

http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/

Catholic Encyclopedia- I. THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

Jewish Encyclopedia-Trinity

The fundamental dogma of Christianity; the concept of the union in one God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three infinite persons. It was the Nicene Council and even more especially the Athanasian Creed that first gave the dogma its definite formulation: "And the Catholick Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Substance." Equalization of the Son with the Father marks an innovation in the Pauline theology: "Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him" (I Cor. viii. 6, R. V.), while in another passage the Holy Ghost is added (ib. xii. 3; comp. Titus ii. 13), thus rapidly developing the concept of the Trinity (II Cor. xiii. 14). Although the Judæo-Christian sect of the Ebionites protested against this apotheosis of Jesus ("Clementine Homilies," xvi. 15), the great mass of Gentile Christians accepted it.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=338&letter=T
​

 

[hypernike]

AS expected, the old mystical and complicated definition of the trinity. Funny rev 17:5 comes to mind. And with those high faultin words… disjecta membra, fragmentary allusions, there are three and yet there is one, hypotases, same substance but distinct subsistence, subordinationism? WHAT in the world do they mean? Anybody? Pls raise your hand!



No wonder you need a whole lot of volumes to explain its definition and a whole new lot to explain the explanation of the definition! And as if scriptures are not to enough to support the doctrine, you even mention Mohammad, who are going to quote next, Buddha, Shakespeare? No wonder only a few and bright people can “fully grasp” the meaning of the word. And you look down to those with humble mind and what is it again they say to people like me?



“Try to understand it and lose your mind”

“Try to deny it and lose your soul”



Sounds like a threat from an angry theologian. They admit that it is not a direct revelation but in so many words, only implied in the scriptures. What? Are we supposed to read the scriptures between the lines? The scriptures are so plain,

The father sits at the center of the throne and the lamb standing at his right side

The father is greater than me

The head of the church is Christ and the head of the Christ id god

After he subjected all things unto him, he will subject himself to God,

so that God will be all in all.

The father has sent me

Jesus does only what the father told him to do

The life of the son is in the Father

The Father gave all power and authority to the son​

The wisdom of this world is foolishness to God.


These scriptures are self-explanatory. You don’t need volumes to explain it, only the brightest people can confuse and twist the meaning of these scriptures.



One God - Biblical

Triune GOD - Mystical

Father above all - Scriptural

TRIUNE GOD - Mystical



Never ever in scriptures Jesus and the apostles taught, preach in words and in deeds a triune god.



But the framers of the Nicene Creed did, probably the brightest mind in their time.



But whom are you going to believe? Those bright boys or Jesus? Not much of a choice.

 

[Peterson]

Trinity can be expressed in one word; unbiblical. It's amazing how trinitatrians grasp at straws to prove their theory, and avoid surrounding verses where the nature of God is clearly and expressly stated and defined.

1 John 5;7 is a case in point. Trins jump at this verse and claim, "See,see," and avoid everything that John plainly states about the Godhead in the rest of the chapter through verse 20. John acknowledges the Father and Son only. He couldn't have made it clearer in 1 John 2:22 - 24, where he acknowledges the Father and the Son only- period!

Again, in 2 John 9; Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. This is a complete and total description which identifies the Father and Son only, and as you will note, is the doctrine of Christ - not man's doctrine. There is no third coequal person called the Holy Ghost.

Trinitarians avoid these plain descriptions of the God of the Bible and seek out vague verses, here and there, to support a manmade creed that has no basis in Scripture.

 

[drstevej]

Trinity can be expressed in one word; unbiblical. It's amazing how trinitatrians grasp at straws to prove their theory, and avoid surrounding verses where the nature of God is clearly and expressly stated and defined.

1 John 5;7 is a case in point. Trins jump at this verse and claim, "See,see," and avoid everything that John plainly states about the Godhead in the rest of the chapter through verse 20. John acknowledges the Father and Son only. He couldn't have made it clearer in 1 John 2:22 - 24, where he acknowledges the Father and the Son only- period!

Again, in 2 John 9; Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. This is a complete and total description which identifies the Father and Son only, and as you will note, is the doctrine of Christ - not man's doctrine. There is no third coequal person called the Holy Ghost.

Trinitarians avoid these plain descriptions of the God of the Bible and seek out vague verses, here and there, to support a manmade creed that has no basis in Scripture.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. -- Matthew 28:28

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.” -- Acts 5:3-4

Thanks for playing. Please insert another token.

 

[Peterson]

These are exactly the vague Scriptures I'm talking about. Why not address the plain Scripture in John's epistles, or the salutations in the epistles of Paul? He also, acknowledges Father and Son only - never a trinity.

Acts 5:4, clearly states that Ananias lied to God. God, here means the Father, not a third person. Verse 30-32 makes this clear.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Trinity can be expressed in one word; unbiblical. It's amazing how trinitatrians grasp at straws to prove their theory, and avoid surrounding verses where the nature of God is clearly and expressly stated and defined.

1 John 5;7 is a case in point. Trins jump at this verse and claim, "See,see," and avoid everything that John plainly states about the Godhead in the rest of the chapter through verse 20. John acknowledges the Father and Son only. He couldn't have made it clearer in 1 John 2:22 - 24, where he acknowledges the Father and the Son only- period!

Again, in 2 John 9; Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. This is a complete and total description which identifies the Father and Son only, and as you will note, is the doctrine of Christ - not man's doctrine. There is no third coequal person called the Holy Ghost.

Trinitarians avoid these plain descriptions of the God of the Bible and seek out vague verses, here and there, to support a manmade creed that has no basis in Scripture.[/SIZE]

Deliberate and malicious falsehoods straight from the depths of Satan! You know as well as I do I have addressed everything you said here several times. I have shown you several verses in John which clearly show a Triunity. I have posted several times 80+ verses which show Father, Son, and Holy Spirit distinct from each other, interacting with one another. Several verses which clearly show the distinct self, mind, and will of the Holy Spirit. I have posted 70+ verses showing the 35+ personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit. Your reaction is always the same you ignore my posts, run for the hills, then after a few weeks you come back posting the same few verses over and over and over again, as if nothing happened.

 

[CHARLES H]

Deliberate and malicious falsehoods straight from the depths of Satan! You know as well as I do I have addressed everything you said here several times. I have shown you several verses in John which clearly show a Triunity. I have posted several times 80+ verses which show Father, Son, and Holy Spirit distinct from each other, interacting with one another. Several verses which clearly show the distinct self, mind, and will of the Holy Spirit. I have posted 70+ verses showing the 35+ personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit. Your reaction is always the same you ignore my posts, run for the hills, then after a few weeks you come back posting the same few verses over and over and over again, as if nothing happened.

BRO.......don't let it get to you. he's just pushing your buttons

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]These are exactly the vague Scriptures I'm talking about. Why not address the plain Scripture in John's epistles, or the salutations in the epistles of Paul? He also, acknowledges Father and Son only - never a trinity.

Acts 5:4, clearly states that Ananias lied to God. God, here means the Father, not a third person. Verse 30-32 makes this clear.[/SIZE]

Yeah right, typical Christian Unorthodox Later Theology religions, the words of Jesus are vague, lets go look at the handful of proof texts Peterson keeps posting over and over and over again, while he ignores the 80+ verses, including several in John, that do show a distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, including the Spirit having a distinct mind, self, and will.

Peterson is so proud that John has salutations that only mention the Father and the Son, while he deliberately ignores Peter's salutation, which shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each having a different role in the salvation of men.

1 Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.​

 

[Der Alte]

[size=-13]AS expected, the old mystical and complicated definition of the trinity. Funny rev 17:5 comes to mind. And with those high faultin words… disjecta membra, fragmentary allusions, there are three and yet there is one, hypotases, same substance but distinct subsistence, subordinationism? WHAT in the world do they mean? Anybody? Pls raise your hand![/size]

You don't like the word hypostases? Maybe you should try reading your Bible.

Heb 1:3 [His Son, vs. 2] Who being the brightness of his [God. vs. 1] glory, and the express image of his [God. vs. 1] person [size=+1]υποστασεως[/size], and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

G5287 [size=+1]υποστασις[/size] hupostasis
Thayer Definition:
1) a setting or placing under
1a) thing put under, substructure, foundation
2) that which has foundation, is firm
2a) that which has actual existence
2a1) a substance, real being
2b) the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
2c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
2c1) confidence, firm trust, assurance
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a compound of G5259 and G2476
Citing in TDNT: 8:572, 1237​

[SIZE=-1]No wonder you need a whole lot of volumes to explain its definition and a whole new lot to explain the explanation of the definition! And as if scriptures are not to enough to support the doctrine, you even mention Mohammad, who are going to quote next, Buddha, Shakespeare? No wonder only a few and bright people can “fully grasp” the meaning of the word. And you look down to those with humble mind and what is it again they say to people like me?[/SIZE]

I didn't quote Mohammad, dood. That shows how honest you are, NOT! If you want to talk to me, stick to the truth, I don't want to hear garbage! No wonder "only a few and bright people" don't understand what is being said, you don't even read.

You seem to have a BIG problem with the truth. I didn't need anything but one verse to explain the Trinity. The rest was just explanation.

* * * meaningless drivel omitted.* * *

[SIZE=-1]They admit that it is not a direct revelation but in so many words, only implied in the scriptures. What? Are we supposed to read the scriptures between the lines? The scriptures are so plain,

The father sits at the center of the throne and the lamb standing at his right side[/SIZE]

Scripture, please? There is one throne in heaven, there is one on the throne, BUT Jesus is SET down with the Father in His throne.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. (Also 4:3-6, 9-1, 5:1,6-7, 11, 13, and eighteen more.)

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.​

[SIZE=-1]The father is greater than me.[/size]

I notice you ignored the scripture I posted on this. Philp 2:6-11. JESUS EXISTED EQUAL WITH GOD!

[SIZE=-1]The head of the church is Christ and the head of the Christ id god.

After he subjected all things unto him, he will subject himself to God,

so that God will be all in all.

The father has sent me

Jesus does only what the father told him to do

The life of the son is in the Father

The Father gave all power and authority to the son

These scriptures are self-explanatory. You don’t need volumes to explain it, only the brightest people can confuse and twist the meaning of these scriptures.[/SIZE]

Just what I expected the same handful of out-of-context proof texts, now since you are a Bible expert harmonize these verses with the other 31, 168 verses in the Bible, particularly the ones I have quoted many times before, see my links. How about the scriptures I posted are they not self-explanatory, John 1:14, 1 John 5:7, Philp 2:6-11?

[SIZE=-1]Never ever in scriptures Jesus and the apostles taught, preach in words and in deeds a triune god.[/SIZE]

Of course, Jesus did not command baptism in the authority of three having equal authority, did He? Jesus did preach that He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit had distinct selves, minds, and wills.

Anti-Trinitarians teach there is no Trinity, God is not Triune, but Jesus said that, The Father; the Son, Himself; and the Holy Spirit had separate and distinct “selves,” Jn 5:19, 20, 26; 16:13.

[size=-1]Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself [[size=+1]εαυτου[/size]]; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;[/size]​

In this verse, Joh 5:26, Jesus speaks of two separate and distinct “selves.” One “self,” the Father, gives to the other “self,” the Son.

[size=-1] G1438 [size=+1]εαυτου[/size] heautou heh-ow-too'
(Including all the other cases); from a reflexive pronoun otherwise obsolete and the genitive (dative or accusative) of G846; him (her, it, them, also [in conjunction with the personal pronoun of the other persons] my, thy, our, your) -self (-selves), etc.: - alone, her (own, -self), (he) himself, his (own), itself, one (to) another, our (thine) own (-selves), + that she had, their (own, own selves), (of) them (-selves), they, thyself, you, your (own, own conceits, own selves, -selves).

Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.[/size]​

In this verse, Joh 16:27, Jesus again refers to the Father having a “self,” as distinct from Jesus.

[size=-1]Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself [[size=+1]εαυτου[/size]]; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.[/size]​

In this verse, Joh 16:13, Jesus clearly indicates that the Spirit has a “self,” using the same word, “himself,” He used to distinguish between, Jesus, himself, and the Father. Does the word himself somehow have a different meaning in this verse than in John 5:26?

“Oneness,” and other anti-Trinitarians, teach that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but it is “the mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God. If that is true, in John 16:13,

• Who does the, “mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God, speak from if not from God?
• Who does the, “mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God, hear from if not from God?
• Who tells the “mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God, of things to come in the future, if not God?

If the anti-Trinitarian doctrine is correct then the Christians at Ephesus did not know that God had “a mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

[size=-1]Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who [Christ] through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?[/size]​

The “self,” of Christ distinguished from “the eternal spirit,” and from “God.” And note the clear distinction of the Triune God, 1. the blood of Christ, 2. the eternal Spirit, and 3. the living God?

Does the word, himself somehow have a different meaning in this verse, than it does in John 5:26, which seems to have a different meaning in John 16:13, according to anti-Trinitarian teaching?

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit[size=+1]*[/size], because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.[/size]​

“Oneness” and other anti-Trinitarians teach that the Holy Spirit is merely, “the mind of God, God’s active force, God’s energy, God’s power, God’s influence,” etc.

If that is true does, “the mind of God, God’s active force, God’s energy, God’s power, God’s influence.” have a “mind” of its own, [size=+1]*[/size] Rom 8:27?

Should this verse be rewritten to say,

“And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is “the mind of God, God’s active force, God’s energy, God’s power,” of the “the mind of God, God’s active force, God’s energy, God’s power,”, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.?”​

[SIZE=-1]But the framers of the Nicene Creed did, probably the brightest mind in their time.[/SIZE]

Where in the Nicene creed is a Triune God mentioned?

[SIZE=-1]But whom are you going to believe? Those bright boys or Jesus? Not much of a choice.[/SIZE]

So who are you going to believe this bright boy, and his handful of out-of-context proof texts, or Jesus and the scripture, ALL the scripture, in-context?. Not much of a choice.

 

[hypernike]

1 John 5:6-8

6 This is the one who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

New International Version (most versions are like this only the KJV is like below.)



1 John 5:7

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” King Kames Version



“The text of this verse should read, Because there are three that bear record. The remainder of the verse is spurious. Not a single manuscript contains the trinitarian addition before the fourteenth century, and the verse is never quoted in the controversies over the Trinity in the first 450 years of the church era. 8. The three witnesses are the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. "The trinity of witnesses furnish one testimony" (Plummer, The Epistles, p. 116) namely that Jesus Christ came in the flesh to die for sin that men might live.”

(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)



Most bible commentators agree on this, even the Trinitarian ones. At least they have the intellectual honesty to know that this verse was never use to defend trinity.



But even so, The father the word and holy spirit are one. One in what? In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ. That’s the context. Me out of context.? Jesus said it already, The father and I are one. So as the church is one in Christ. So where is the triune God here as you would have in their mystical definition? None. Because the triune god only exist in the their mind..



You are right all along, Peterson. The poor guy has a preconceived idea of a triune god. Probably born in it. Raised in it. Well, it could happen to anybody.

 

[hypernike]

Phil 2:5-11

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7 but made himself nothing,

taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness. - NIV



Phil 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: - KJV



9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

and gave him the name that is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father. – NIV



Phil 2:5-6

Let this mind . . . (AV). Better, Maintain that inner disposition towards one another which was exemplified (the verb must be supplied) by Christ Jesus. 6. Being in the form of God (AV). Better, Though in his pre-incarnate state he possessed the essential qualities of God, he did not consider his status of divine equality a prize to be selfishly hoarded (taking harpagmos passively). Morphe, form, in verses 6 and 7 denotes a permanent expression of essential attributes, while schema, fashion (v. 8), refers to outward appearance that is subject to change.

(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)



The verse says that Jesus is Divine. The Father is Divine. They are equally Divine. Same nature. But the supremacy of the Supreme being belongs to the father as the following passages reveals… And though He can consider himself equal with the father and guess what? HE DID NOT CONSIDER IT!





Triune doctrine did.

Satan did. (Remember? I will be like the Most High God, but of course failed)



Sorry, no triune God here



I guess that is why the Father loves Him so much that ….



The Father gave Jesus the highest position.

The Father gave him a power name that is above all names

For what? That his Father will be glorified.



As far as Our Lord Jesus Christ is concern, The Father is Supreme.



But I don’t expect some intelligent people would accept this truth. Guess just too simple….

On John 1:1



(The Word of God). He was with God in the beginning and He is Divine. Jesus was the eternal Word of God. To be exact john used the Greek word LOGOS by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to express his understanding of Jesus and his relationship with God.. Now the bible is not a complete book of anatomy on God’s nature, since the bible is primarily centered on Jesus as the messiah and his relation to mans salvation, (in that sense to be sure that the nature of God is Triune is dangerous, we could all end up with wrong conclusions, you know.)



Logos was a popular idea during John’s time, it means thought and speech. If we follow the logic of john, logos could mean the thought and speech of God, or the mind or even the very soul of God. Since a person’s thought and speech comprises who that person is.



If this is what he meant when he borrowed the Greek idea of logos to express the nature of Jesus, He would have never come in to a conclusion that God is a triune being.



At any rate, Still no triune God in this verse as you would have as believe.

 

[hypernike]

You say Few out of context verse?



John 17:1-3

Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

NASU



Say again? What did Jesus called his Father? The one true God? Oh yeah!



Jesus called his Father the One True God.



Do these verses really need an explanation? I love to see them try… with their reasoning like “well god is one but not really one, they are three. Yes they are persons but no only in the sense of their being blah, blah, blah.” Who need that kind of explanation. I’m sure with so many words they can justify that well. Maybe its gonna goes like this – “yes Jesus really said that the father is the one true god, but what he really meant was….and in their so many high falutin words they will conclude that Jesus never really meant it that way because he is part of a triune god.



So much for the triune god.



Triune god exists in the mind of the Trinitarians.



Father as the one true God exists in the mind and heart of Jesus Christ!



To the Glory of the Father, we declare that Jesus Christ is Lord!

 

[Peterson]

Yeah right, typical Christian Unorthodox Later Theology religions, the words of Jesus are vague, lets go look at the handful of proof texts Peterson keeps posting over and over and over again, while he ignores the 80+ verses, including several in John, that do show a distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, including the Spirit having a distinct mind, self, and will.



Peterson is so proud that John has salutations that only mention the Father and the Son, while he deliberately ignores Peter's salutation, which shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each having a different role in the salvation of men.

1 Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.​

The Spirit, here in 1 Peter 1:2, is plainly revealed in verse 5. It is the power of God. "God," in the NT, is the Father, and Spirit refers to the power and nature of the Father and his like-minded Son Jesus Christ, as verse 11 makeds clear: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify...

Here's another salutation by Peter himself in 2 Peter 1:2; Grace and peace be mutiplied unto you through the foreknowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
Notice Peter does not profess a trinity.

Otherwise, how's everything going for you in charm school these days?

 

[Peterson]

Concerning Philippians 2:6-11: Verse 6; Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. "Equal" here does not mean equal in authority. Jesus never made that claim. "Equal" isos, means of like kind and substance; similar; to agree. It does not mean equal in authority and stature.

Jesus always stated that the Father is supreme. Verse 9, makes this clear. It is the Father that has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.

Also, verse 11: And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God theFather. Also notice, that there is no mention of a coequal third person here called the Holy Ghost.

 

[Cubes]

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. -- Matthew 28:28

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.” -- Acts 5:3-4

Thanks for playing. Please insert another token.

Hi doc,

You're right that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God: And God, according to Peter, is the Father... a specific individual, whose is the Spirit.


Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."


When Peter says, "God," he doesn't mean Jesus or a group of persons or interchangeable persons, but the Father only whose will alone is done in heaven and on earth by all those who love him.

 

[Cubes]

Hi DA,

I am interested in dialoguing with you. I must confess that I get bogged down by your references and links - which take the fun out of reading. It is not to say I am not interested or even disputing what you have to say. I am just talking about the volume and getting through it. Can you amend this, and let's deal with a handful of verses at a time which God willing, I can answer directly. I shall try and devote some time to that pursuit if it's ok with you. Also, I would very much like to stick with scripture solely.

Thanks for the consideration.