To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

[Guojing]

The verse you quote is clearly been added to the bible. See the context of the passage:

Verses above we are talking about sin.

1Ti 5:22 Do not put hands on any man without thought, and have no part in other men's sins: keep yourself clean.

Suddenly we are out of context talking about drinking wine.

1Ti 5:23 Do not take only water as your drink, but take a little wine for the good of your stomach, and because you are frequently ill.

Then we are back to talking about sin.

1Ti 5:24 The sins of some men are clearly seen, going before them to be judged; but with others, their sins go after them.

Vesre 1 Tim 5:23 is clearly been added by some one at a latter date, it has no context.

Paul may have fluctuated through his ministry, he may not have been able to heal all the time. See the following, which seems to indicate there were times God showed special grace:

Act 14:3 So they kept there for a long time, taking heart in the Lord, who gave witness to the word of his grace by causing signs and wonders to be done by their hands.


You say at the end of Paul's ministry that he performed no signs, that he was limping into death. That is not true. The very last book of acts, states:

Act 28:8 And the father of Publius was ill, with a disease of the stomach; to whom Paul went, and put his hands on him, with prayer, and made him well.

No I did not say Paul was limping. Acts 28 was before he started writing his prison epistles which started from with Colossians Ephesians and Philippians, so it was still early on in his ministry.

By the time he wrote 1 and 2 Timothy, it was the at the end of his life, he was executed shortly after that. Do you notice he did not tell Timothy to believe, as most Word of Faith preachers would teach today, that Jesus could heal all (Acts 10:38) or that by his stripes he was healed?

I am contrasting how earlier in the ministry in Acts, he had the signs, his handkerchiefs could heal. Neither did he sent him one of his miracle handkerchiefs.

Instead he gave good common sense advice, drink wine instead of the dirty water, since your stomach is giving you problems.

All these are indications of cessationalism.

 

[Aussie Pete]

If the gift of healing like we read with Jesus and the Apostles are for today why don't we see it being used like them with hundreds of people with miraculous healing's like raising the dead, lame from birth, the crippled, limbs restored on paraplegics, demons cast out,people dying of poison healed, hospitals in ICU emptied etc......

It's simple. People mostly reject the truth of the gospel. Lord Jesus healed and delivered all who came to Him. Even those who call themselves Christians have little trust or confidence in the Lord's power to heal. It's more complicated with Christians but I won't discuss that now.

I've prayed for people to be healed and they have, instantly. I've been prayed for and healed too. I met a Christian whose son was in a Christian band. He was so sick (terminal cancer) that it was reported in the music industry press that he had died. Not true. He was prayed for and eventually healed, without medical intervention. We prayed for a guy just down the road from where I live. He was healed of cancer also. When God's people get real with God, healing and deliverance start to happen again. We routinely cast out demons. Healing and deliverance is the children's bread. Many Christians are bound by evil spirits and never get free because they don't realise that they have a problem.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes, he does.
Jesus said "my sheep listen to my voice". It doesn't have to be an audible voice, though it may be on occasions. God can also speak through Scripture, other people, sermons/devotional writings or circumstances.

We have all heard the stories of God speaking to people and usually determine those people are on the fringe of reality. In most cases they have crossed the line and no longer are rational members of society. When people say they have heard God speaking to them we check to make sure they are not responsible for small children.

As an apartment building manager, I know people who hear God speaking will not be able to live independently much longer and in one case, the death scene was horrific and a mess to clean up. I don't spend much time with the homeless anymore so I've not had the experiences you've had.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No I did not say Paul was limping. Acts 28 was before he started writing his prison epistles which started from with Colossians Ephesians and Philippians, so it was still early on in his ministry.

By the time he wrote 1 and 2 Timothy, it was the at the end of his life, he was executed shortly after that. Do you notice he did not tell Timothy to believe, as most Word of Faith preachers would teach today, that Jesus could heal all (Acts 10:38) or that by his stripes he was healed?

I am contrasting how earlier in the ministry in Acts, he had the signs, his handkerchiefs could heal. Neither did he sent him one of his miracle handkerchiefs.

Instead he gave good common sense advice, drink wine instead of the dirty water, since your stomach is giving you problems.

All these are indications of cessationalism.

No I did not say Paul was limping. Acts 28 was before he started writing his prison epistles which started from with Colossians Ephesians and Philippians, so it was still early on in his ministry.

By the time he wrote 1 and 2 Timothy, it was the at the end of his life, he was executed shortly after that. Do you notice he did not tell Timothy to believe, as most Word of Faith preachers would teach today, that Jesus could heal all (Acts 10:38) or that by his stripes he was healed?

I am contrasting how earlier in the ministry in Acts, he had the signs, his handkerchiefs could heal. Neither did he sent him one of his miracle handkerchiefs.

Instead he gave good common sense advice, drink wine instead of the dirty water, since your stomach is giving you problems.

All these are indications of cessationalism.

Jesus never said we could heal all. He said he has put gifts within the church, for the benefit of all. These gifts in scripture include the ability to heal. Which I have seen. Now either you are calling me a devil, or God still heals. Read your bible for a change. Read about how God would have us use the faith that he gives us to move mountains.

 

[Strong in Him]

We have all heard the stories of God speaking to people and usually determine those people are on the fringe of reality.

Speak for yourself.

In most cases they have crossed the line and no longer are rational members of society.

It's a shame that you seem to class Christians who have heard God speak to them as abnormal.

When people say they have heard God speaking to them we check to make sure they are not responsible for small children.

You might do.
It depends on what a person says that God is saying. "God told me to kill someone/have sex with a married man/harm this child because she has demons", will always be wrong.
But "I believe God is telling me he wants me to apply for this job and work as ....." may very well be correct. Especially if the person does then get the job and is in it for several years.

As an apartment building manager, I know people who hear God speaking will not be able to live independently much longer and in one case, the death scene was horrific and a mess to clean up. I don't spend much time with the homeless anymore so I've not had the experiences you've had.

You seem to be assuming that when people say "God spoke to me" it will be only with an audible voice, as at Jesus' baptism. And that the only people who can have that kind of experience are the homeless and mentally ill.

I'm sorry if you don't believe that when Jesus said "my sheep listen to my voice" he meant it.
I'm sorry if you can't distinguish between the voice of God and schizophrenia.
God can speak in many ways - sometimes it may be audibly, as happened to me many years ago when he said "Jesus loves you".
It was so audible, to me, that I thought it was my brother playing a joke in his bedroom next door. It was certainly from God, because of the immediate effect it had on my life, and has had since.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus never said we could heal all. He said he has put gifts within the church, for the benefit of all. These gifts in scripture include the ability to heal. Which I have seen. Now either you are calling me a devil, or God still heals. Read your bible for a change. Read about how God would have us use the faith that he gives us to move mountains.

No one is saying God doesn't heal today.

Anyway, the question I originally raised to your point was that those in 1 Cor had the complete bible, that is clearly false.

 

[SkyWriting]

Speak for yourself.



It's a shame that you seem to class Christians who have heard God speak to them as abnormal.



You might do.
It depends on what a person says that God is saying. "God told me to kill someone/have sex with a married man/harm this child because she has demons", will always be wrong.
But "I believe God is telling me he wants me to apply for this job and work as ....." may very well be correct. Especially if the person does then get the job and is in it for several years.



You seem to be assuming that when people say "God spoke to me" it will be only with an audible voice, as at Jesus' baptism. And that the only people who can have that kind of experience are the homeless and mentally ill.

I'm sorry if you don't believe that when Jesus said "my sheep listen to my voice" he meant it.
I'm sorry if you can't distinguish between the voice of God and schizophrenia.
God can speak in many ways - sometimes it may be audibly, as happened to me many years ago when he said "Jesus loves you".
It was so audible, to me, that I thought it was my brother playing a joke in his bedroom next door. It was certainly from God, because of the immediate effect it had on my life, and has had since.

I have been clear that God communicates and never with words.

 

[Saint Steven]

Good point. Many in the pro-tongues community gloss over that instruction from Paul.

The instruction for interpretation of tongues only applies to #3 below.

Five Different Kinds of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

 

[Carl Emerson]

We have all heard the stories of God speaking to people and usually determine those people are on the fringe of reality. In most cases they have crossed the line and no longer are rational members of society.

They said that about Jesus... However, you seem to be saying there may be exceptions? Are you saying some may be genuinely hearing from Him???

 

[Saint Steven]

But his point is salient. What matters most? If I can speak in the tongues of angels but have not love...

If love is the only thing that will remain, what should we be striving for?

Right!
The point of 1 Cor.13 is not that the gifts will cease. The point is about love.

 

[SkyWriting]

They said that about Jesus... However, you seem to be saying there may be exceptions? Are you saying some may be genuinely hearing from Him???

Absolutely. But people are constantly begging to hear God's voice.
I am saying this is not the correct request. God does not speak with a voice.
He communicates through feeling and knowing and assurance and faith.
The growth of faith is God's voice. Knowing God is there is God's voice.
Knowing God Through Answered Prayer - Steps 1, 2, & 3

Matthew 7:7
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

"Ask" and the response?
"Knock" and the response?

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

The "voice" is the knocking. Our response to the knocking? Open up.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Absolutely. But people are constantly begging to hear God's voice.
I am saying this is not the correct request. God does not speak with a voice.
He communicates through feeling and knowing and assurance and faith.
The growth of faith is God's voice. Knowing God is there is God's voice.
Knowing God Through Answered Prayer - Steps 1, 2, & 3

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ (and that is not the bible...)

 

[Saint Steven]

It's for sure not the only means of healing. I had a chronic liver condition when I got saved. I knew nothing of healing, I was spooked by this "Holy Ghost" and I knew nothing of the gifts. I went to a meeting run by Teen Challenge Sydney. The leader had a word of knowledge about my condition. He said that if the individual asked for prayer, they would be healed. Hey, that was me. And I was healed instantly. I also suffered chronic nosebleeds. It started again later that night. I said to myself if God can heal my liver, He can heal this problem too. And He did. Instantly.

I've had a gift of healing for someone who was in agony with toothache. It was a Sunday and he had a 300 kilometre motor bike ride ahead of him. One of the group said that we should pray. Mr doubt and unbelief (me) said to myself that God does not heal teeth. The Lord said to me, indeed I do! And I had the anointing to pray for this guy and he was healed instantly. I've had nothing like that before or since. Don't put God in a box. He's bigger than anything you can even imagine.

Thanks for sharing this testimony.
Your sentence, "I've had nothing like that before or since.", stood out to me.
I have had similar experiences. I prayed for someone and they were healed. I thought that might be the start of a healing ministry for me. Nope. Just a single event. Years later I had a vision that led me to a place where someone needed prayer for healing. Never happened again. Not that it won't.

I think the key is to be OPEN and WILLING to be used in any way God seeks to use us. We don't own the gifts, the gifts own us. Stop bucking the HS. We aren't the rider, we are the horse. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

I have been clear that God communicates and never with words.

What does this mean?

 

[Saint Steven]

If the gift of healing like we read with Jesus and the Apostles are for today why don't we see it being used like them with hundreds of people with miraculous healing's like raising the dead, lame from birth, the crippled, limbs restored on paraplegics, demons cast out,people dying of poison healed, hospitals in ICU emptied etc......

Cessationism actually prevents miracles. Even for Jesus.
That should tell us something.

Matthew 13:57-58
And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”
58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

 

[Saint Steven]

One the Bible has been written there is no further need for prophecy and special gifts.
You didn't mention what God said.....through tounges so "Gods words" are forever lost.
Not likely God's method.

There is a BIG misunderstanding about what prophecy is about in the NT church and how it is defined. It's not about predicting the future our making theological statements.

1 Corinthians 14:3
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

1 Corinthians 14:4
Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

[Strong in Him]

I have been clear that God communicates and never with words.

Well sorry, but he did with me.
So that disproves your "never" statement.

 

[SkyWriting]

There is a BIG misunderstanding about what prophecy is about in the NT church and how it is defined. It's not about predicting the future our making theological statements.

1 Corinthians 14:3
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

1 Corinthians 14:4
Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

I think the misunderstanding is the idea that "infant" churches use the same nourishment as adult churches. The NT letters are all about infant formula and diaper changing. We shouldn't be reading them as a guidebook for adults.

 

[Saint Steven]

I love all the personal testimonies of miracles. Let's keep it going. This one has some instruction for those who want to learn how to pray for the sick.

We had an evening service with a healing emphasis at church. After the sermon/teaching those who wanted prayer were asked to line up in front of the church. I took my place at the end of the line. We were then asked to pray for the person ahead of us in line.

We begin with an interview. Ask the person what they need. Then we determine a benchmark. Rate the pain from one to ten, or in the case of mobility of a limb, how far can you lift it now?

Then we pray. After some prayer, restate the interview questions. How much pain now? How is your mobility now? If the headache goes from an 8 to a 5, then we are making progress. Keep going. If increased mobility is present, then we are making progress. Keep going.

The man ahead of me in line had come to the meeting using a cane to walk. He had not used a cane previously. He was suffering from a back injury/pain. I interviewed him and we went to prayer. I noticed heat on my hands held over his back. I didn't report this to him, but asked if he was feeling anything in his back. Yes, he said. He felt a tremendous heat. Yes, indeed. My hands felt like they were on fire with heat. (did not cause me any pain, but VERY hot) We were making progress. Keep going. We prayed again and suddenly he stood up straight and said, I'm healed! He left the line and walked around the sanctuary waving the cane over his head. Wow.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think the misunderstanding is the idea that "infant" churches use the same nourishment as adult churches. The NT letters are all about infant formula and diaper changing. We shouldn't be reading them as a guidebook for adults.

I've never seen an "adult" church per se.
I think there are two types of people at church. Spiritual parents and spiritual children. Those of us spiritual parents are always busy feeding the spiritual children. We usually have to feed ourselves. - lol

But if you are open to it, even a spiritual parent can receive something from spiritual children. I am always encouraged by their enthusiasm for seeking God.