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Featured To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JohnT, Sep 15, 2020.

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  1. SANTOSO

    SANTOSO Well-Known Member

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    Are you considering whether the gifts of the Holy Spirit are continued or have ceased ?
    Why would the Holy Spirit stop giving gifts ?
    Have those who believed in Jesus perfected ?
    Are you concerned about this:
    but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. -1 Corinthians 13:10

    Who does God the Father consider perfect?
    Yes, it is Jesus Christ our Lord, but how was He made perfect ?

    For it was fitting that He, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation PERFECT THROUGH SUFFERING. -Hebrews 2:10

    So if Jesus Christ, is made perfect through suffering, and God has purposed in Christ in bring many sons to glory through being perfected in suffering.

    Do you really think that many sons have been perfected ?

    What is the point of the Perfect One, Lord Jesus comes when He has not yet brought many sons perfected through suffering?
    If many sons are not perfected through suffering, how it is possible that many sons can be brought to glory.

    As we have heard:
    and if children, then heirs'heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we SUFFER WITH HIM IN ORDER THAT WE may also BE GLORIFIED WITH HIM. -Romans 8:17

    So will you think that the Holy Spirit has ceased to give gifts?

    What is the purpose for Holy Spirit ceasing to give the gifts ?

    Who would want the Holy Spirit cease to give gifts ? What are your concerns ?

    Holy Spirit gives gifts as He will ; not as believers will.

    Believers can desire to have the gifts but it is best to pursue with the gifts to love Holy Spirit.

    Those who may not have not desired yet or desire but are given the gifts are also possible because as Holy Spirit will.

    For the gifts of the Holy Spirit have a purpose to build up the Body of Christ in love. Why ? Because Holy Spirit is the One who is called Love Eternal.

    Why are you stopping the One who is called Love Eternal to stop giving gifts?
     
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  2. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Well I am one...

    What ever has ceased is a function of unbelief rather that a matter of His will.

    It is sad that the superstars have taken the limelight and often misrepresented His way.

    Walking with Him should naturally result in His healing grace bursting forth and His word being heard.
    Jesus healed from compassion - it is not an 'either/or' it is a 'both/and'

    Personally I cant imagine Him healing without His Love there...
     
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  3. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    do you believe that the nation Israel required signs in order to believe one is sent from God?
     
  4. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Because of their unbelief yes... But never forget His healing and deliverance came from compassion - His gifts are an expression of Love.

    His hope was that Israel would know Him when He arrived - signs for belief were not His first hope - knowing Him was...
     
  5. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    One of the misunderstanding, that many Word of Faith preachers teach, is that Jesus healed only because "he is kind and compassionate".

    I am sure he is kind, but Jesus healed during his earthly ministry because he was giving Israel a taste of what the kingdom of heaven on Earth was all about.

    If they are willing to accept him as their Messiah, they can expect no deaths and no diseases once he is ruling over them as their king.

    That was why preaching the gospel of the kingdom to them always meant healing, recall what he instructed the 12 in Matthew 10?

    5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

    If Jesus was healing only because he was kind, as you claim, he would not have instructed them in vs5 to "go not to the gentiles", when he commanded them to heal all.

    So if people were to ask me, "Why is healing no longer guaranteed to us in the Body of Christ today?", I would tell them its because Israel has fallen since Acts 7, they rejected their King.

    Now all of us in the Body of Christ are eagerly waiting for the rapture to get our healing, as Paul would remind us in Romans 8, and 1 Cor 15.
     
  6. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I don't think there is additional prophesy to add to the scriptures. There are no Bible editions with blank pages included. Though that would cut down on all the time spent highlighting with all the different colored highlighters.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    ".... a place to express opinions about one's beliefs about the Gifts of Holy Spirit"
     
  8. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    OK - I have a few issues with your take...

    Yes Jesus demonstrated the signs of the kingdom.

    No deaths ? when do you suppose this was to happen?

    Was Stephen not under Jesus Kingship?

    I never made that claim...

    Healing was not guaranteed then either... Paul is a case in point.

    I once asked Jesus why not all I pray for are healed - the answer was He didn't want me to become proud...
     
  9. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Interesting testimony, okay if you claim you are a pure "continualist", let's use Mark 16:17-18 as a test of that claim.

    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    If its really true that Jesus told you that answer as you claimed, than you are a cessationist in reality. Jesus promised his disciples that they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

    Thus what Jesus gave his apostles, the signs in Mark 16, some has ceased, at least for your case.

    I have not even gone to the snake handling part yet. You don't handle poisonous snakes at all now right? That sign has ceased for you, and for all of us in the Body of Christ as well.
     
  10. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    V17-18 certainly does not refer to every individual doing all these signs... the Body of Christ should - not all individuals are equally gifted - Paul makes this clear.

    Again in answer to your claim in Bold... the fact that not all are healed does not evidence a lack of gifting. Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing - the same applies to us.

    Sorry I don't appreciate your reasoning at all to claim cessation.
     
  11. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe

    If you want to claim that you are a pure continualist, than don't change what Jesus is saying in vs 17.

    He is saying "them that believe". Are you one of them that believe?

    Paul only came in after Israel has fallen in Acts 7, so if you want to use Paul to justify your doctrine, then don't kid yourself, you are a cessationist, at least you are not a pure continualist, as I have already explained.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  12. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Both camps are in error. To say that supernatural gifts are no longer granted by the Father or to demand that "sign gifts" , specifically tongues , are proof of salvation, they both fail to do the will of the Father. Both cause division. Both are in error. There are some who walk in His Holy Spirit who do not belong to either man made system. Be blessed.
     
  13. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    If the gift of healing like we read with Jesus and the Apostles are for today why don't we see it being used like them with hundreds of people with miraculous healing's like raising the dead, lame from birth, the crippled, limbs restored on paraplegics, demons cast out,people dying of poison healed, hospitals in ICU emptied etc......
     
  14. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    I do appreciate your vigor in the discussion, but I should give a little "push back" for the sake of discussion. I created the topic as general, about all of them, not focused on the one issue of tongues. My reason for that was to avoid any focus on one tree in the forest, but to see the gifts as a unified whole, as Paul did.

    Bringing up any of the signs as a "proof of salvation" is contrary to Scripture. Yes, there are some unlearned people who propose that, but that is their eisegesis and unsubstantiated opinion. Thus, you are correct in the next paragraph when you call that a "man (no women? :p ) made system".

    I am not sure if that rigid dichotomy (division is bad, division proves error) can be maintained. Anyone doing a study of the Early Church Fathers and/or the Ecumenical Councils will see men like Bishop Irenaeus of Lyons (His name means "peaceable" ) who wrote his monumental book Against Heresies in 180 to demonstrate the errors of Valentinus, and Gnosticism.

    FYI Irenaeus had impeccable theological credentials. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John. Many Evangelicals do not appreciate the work of the people in the second and third centuries because mistakenly, their church history begins with the 95 Thesis posted on the door of the Wittenburg Cathedral


    True Dat!

    However, if you are in a church that teaches believers baptism, you are indebted to Meno Simons (father of the Menonites) who taught a group of English refugees all about that. Those who opposed them executed them in a cruel parody of baptism--death by drowning. Cutting to the chase, these Englishmen returned to England, and split up. Some of those remaining in England became English Baptists, and the others went to the Colonies, first landing in Massachusetts in 1620. We in the US call them Pilgrims.

    Ain't history cool??
     
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  15. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    If you're praying privately to God, you don't need to.
    It's only those who speak in tongues in public worship who need to wait for an interpretation.

    I have heard people speaking in tongues.
    I have also read accounts of people who spoke in tongues in church and their tongue was understood by someone else who spoke that language and who was attending the service. People like Denis Bennet have also written books about the Spirit and speaking in tongues.

    The Holy Spirit has not withdrawn a couple of his gifts but not others.
     
  16. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Well I do.
    He healed me; miraculously, overnight. I know of others who have been healed, and read books about healings - Kathryn Kulman, David Watson, Denis Bennet and accounts from the church overseas.
    I've heard a vicar tell how he visited a church where someone was raised from the dead.

    If "no one believes", maybe that is why no one is seeing people being healed, and why it is thought that healings have stopped.
     
  17. lastofall

    lastofall Active Member

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    [for me anyway] scripture does not tell us that the manifestation of the Spirit ceases as a whole or in part: if it were so that the manifestation of the Spirit ceased in part of perticular manifestations then the scripture would tell us; but it does not. Likewise if the manifestation of the Spirit ceased as a whole, then there would be no more faith, nor words of wisdom, nor words of knowledge. Furthermore we see in (1 Corinthians 12:28) for example if miracles or healings have ceased, then there can be no more teachers either. It is a matter of what is needed and not what we think is needed as is made clear in v31 "But covet earnestly the best gift" which is to say that it depends on what is needed, and not whether or not these gifts exist: That should not at all be in question!
     
  18. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Luke 17:11-19
    Jesus healed all 10 lepers but only one obeyed showing that he was the only one that had faith.

    John 18:10
    when Peter cut of the ear of Malchus, Jesus healed him without any faith from anyone.

    Acts 3:2-6
    “And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us." So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."

    There are numerous other examples of Jesus healing because He had compassion on them, no faith required.
     
  19. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    I do not know, exactly, but whatever your position on healing is. it must not ignore these:

    Isaiah 53:
    3 He was despised and rejected by men;
    a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
    and as one from whom men hide their faces
    he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4 Surely he has borne our griefs
    and carried our sorrows;
    yet we esteemed him stricken,
    smitten by God, and afflicted.

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
    and with his stripes we are healed.

    thus healing is in the Atonement of Jesus Christ

    Matthew agrees with Isaiah:

    Matthew 8:
    14 And when Jesus entered Peter's house, he saw his mother-in-law lying sick with a fever.
    15 He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him.
    16 That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.
    17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.

    Matthew 9
    6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins….” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
    7 And the man got up and went home.
    8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.​

    So also does Luke, the physician/historian/disciple:

    Luke 5:
    12 While Jesus was in one of the towns, a man came along who was covered with leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell with his face to the ground and begged him, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.”
    13 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” And immediately the leprosy left him.
    14 Then Jesus ordered him, “Don’t tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.”
    15 Yet the news about him spread all the more, so that crowds of people came to hear him and to be healed of their sicknesses.

    As did John:

    John 4:
    46 Once more he visited Cana in Galilee, where he had turned the water into wine. And there was a certain royal official whose son lay sick at Capernaum.
    47 When this man heard that Jesus had arrived in Galilee from Judea, he went to him and begged him to come and heal his son, who was close to death.
    48 “Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
    49 The royal official said, “Sir, come down before my child dies.”
    50 Jesus replied, “You may go. Your son will live.” The man took Jesus at his word and departed.
    51 While he was still on the way, his servants met him with the news that his boy was living.
    52 When he inquired as to the time when his son got better, they said to him, “The fever left him yesterday at the seventh hour.”
    53 Then the father realized that this was the exact time at which Jesus had said to him, “Your son will live.” So he and all his household believed.

    So did James, the half-brother of Jesus, and (traditionally) the first Bishop of Jerusalem:

    James 5:
    14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
    15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
    16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.​

    And so did Peter, who quoted Isaiah:

    1Peter
    2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.​

    All from NIV

    As to your question of "Why not today?", I cannot answer. Nevertheless, from this compilation (and there is lots more) there is no indication of them ceasing, ever.

    As a matter of practical application because the Prophet, all the Synoptic writers plus the Apostles John and Peter and James ALL LINK HEALING TO THE ATONEMENT. That is a vital connection, and it is repeated many more times than I posted.

    To be consistent, if healing has ceased, then so must the effects of the Atonement cease. In practicality, (and I really do not want to contemplate the consequences of this), it would then mean that no person can be saved today, and that is one reason why this is so important to discuss.
     
  20. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Isaiah 53 is our sins that were healed. Where is sicknesses/ diseases mentioned ?

    But He was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

    The healing is SIN not diseases right there in the text.

    1-Paul left Trophimus behind during one of his missionary journeys because of illness (2 Timothy 4:20).
    2-He recommended wine to Timothy for his “stomach and his frequent ailments” (1 Timothy 5:23).
    3-Epaphroditus got so sick he nearly died (Philippians 2:25–27).
    4-And sometimes God sent sickness to discipline members of His church (1 Corinthians 11:29–32).gty
    5-2 Corinthians 12:9-10 Paul had a thorn in the flesh .“Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.”

    hope this helps !!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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