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Featured To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JohnT, Sep 15, 2020.

  1. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I know.

    But my post was in reply to the statement "no one believes that the miracles that Jesus did are going on today."
    If the forummer doesn't have faith that healing miracles can happen today, they won't look for evidence of them. And if people are healed, they may not believe it is a miracle/miraculous healing, because they have already said/decided that this can't happen. Thus is it quite easy to say "these things aren't happening".
     
  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    As far as 1 Cor. 13:10 goes:

    What Paul has been talking about in gifts and the body in Chp. 12 and takes a little tangent to talk about Love, but than in Chp.13: 8 Paul returns to his discussion of gifts and the body. In Paul’s discussion of the body he talks a lot about the different parts and how we all need to be one. But are there actually one at that time or is this something Paul is wanting and encouraging them to be?

    Paul says: 1 Cor. 12: 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

    Paul uses that same idea in Eph. 4: 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

    In Eph. Paul tells them they need to be united in one body and he also tells them how they are in parts now (have not reached the unity). Eph. 2: 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

    14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

    19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.


    “To teleion” in context is the opposite of being apart (meaning put together). The parts just previously being discussed by Paul were parts of the “body”, the body had not yet come together even at the time of the Ephesians letter, because there were still Jewish Christians and gentile Christians. This was a huge problem that Paul worked on heavily and would explain the persecution, famine and final destruction in Judas. “Body” is neuter and would be the word the Corinthian reader would easily chose to be the neuter word “to teleion” is referring to.

    Paul is saying “when the body is made united as one” or “the parts of the body are joined”. Again it would be poor grammar in Greek or English to say “it” (or the equivalent of “it”) and be referring to a word you used a sentence later, but maybe you can give me examples?

    I would say it was only some time after the destruction of Jerusalem that Jewish Christians quite referring to themselves as Jewish Christians and just called themselves Christians.
     
  3. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Jesus believed and He didn't heal everyone...

    Why not just enjoy your conclusions and respect others - read my testimony here Jesus's Ministry and rejoice with those who rejoice?
     
  4. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Because the church has lost it's way and doesn't function as in early Acts.
     
  5. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Or those sign gifts might of ceased with the Apostles.

    When we speak of the biblical sign gifts, we are referring to miracles like speaking in tongues, visions, healing, raising the dead, and prophesying. There is no question among believers whether or not they existed, for the Bible plainly describes them. Where disagreement arises among believers is their purpose, as well as the question of whether we should experience them today. Some say that these gifts are a sign of one’s salvation, while others say they are a sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and yet others say their purpose is to authenticate the message of the gospel. How can we know the truth? We must search the Scriptures to find God’s purpose statements about these things.

    One of the earliest references to sign gifts in the Bible is found in Exodus 4, when Moses is being instructed by God about the impending deliverance from Egypt. Moses worried that the people would not believe that God sent him, so God gave him the signs of the rod becoming a snake and his hand becoming leprous. God said these signs were “that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you” (v. 5). If the people still did not believe, God told Moses to take water from the Nile and pour it on the ground, where it would turn to blood (v. 9). The purpose for the children of Israel was that they would believe God’s messenger.

    God also gave Moses miraculous signs to show Pharaoh, in order that he would let the people go. In Exodus 7:3-5, God told Moses that He would multiply His signs and wonders in Egypt, so “the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them.” God wanted the Egyptian people to know that He was the one working to deliver the Israelites. In Exodus 10:7, Moses told Pharaoh that the final plague, which would kill the firstborn, was to show that God distinguished between the Egyptians and the Israelites. The signs and wonders confirmed God’s message to Pharaoh and the Egyptians, so they would know that Moses was sent by God.

    When Elijah confronted the false prophets on Mount Carmel (1 Kings 18), he prayed for God to miraculously send fire from heaven so the people would know “you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word....that this people may know that you, O LORD, are God” (v. 36-37). The miracles he and the other prophets performed were a confirmation that God had sent the prophets and that God was at work in Israel’s midst.

    Joel was given a message of God’s judgment on Israel, and within that message was a prophecy of mercy and hope. When the judgment came as prophesied, and the people responded with repentance, God said that He would then remove the judgments and restore His blessing: “You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God and there is none else. And my people shall never again be put to shame” (Joel 2:27). Immediately after that statement, God spoke about pouring His Spirit on the people, so they would prophesy, see visions, and see wonders happening. When the disciples began speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-21), Peter declared, “This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” What was the purpose? That the people would know the message brought by Peter and the others was God’s message.

    Jesus’ ministry was accompanied by various signs and wonders. What was the purpose of His miracles? In John 10:37-38, Jesus was responding to the Jews who wanted to stone Him for blasphemy, and He said, “If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." Just as in the Old Testament, the purpose of Jesus’ miracles was to confirm God’s hand on His Messenger.

    When the Pharisees asked Jesus to show them a sign, Jesus said, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here” (Matthew 12:39-41). Jesus was very clear that the purpose of a sign was so people would acknowledge God’s message and respond accordingly. Likewise, in John 4:48, He told the nobleman, “Unless you see signs and wonders, you will not believe.” The signs were a help to those who struggled to believe, but the message of salvation in Christ was the focus.

    This message of salvation was outlined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:21-23: “It pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles.” Signs have their purpose, but they are a means to a greater end—the salvation of souls through the preaching of the gospel. In 1 Corinthians 14:22, Paul states clearly that “tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers.” God used miraculous signs like speaking in tongues to convince unbelievers that the message of Christ was true, but as the rest of the context shows, the more important thing was the clear declaration of the gospel message.

    One thing that is often overlooked in discussions about signs and miracles is the timing and placement of them in the Scriptures. Contrary to popular belief, people in Bible times did not see miracles all the time. In fact, the miracles of the Bible are generally grouped around special events in God’s dealing with mankind. Israel’s deliverance from Egypt and entrance into the Promised Land were accompanied by many miracles, but the miracles faded away soon afterward. During the late kingdom years, when God was about to place the people in exile, He allowed some of His prophets to do miracles. When Jesus came to live among us, He did miracles, and in the early ministry of the apostles, they did miracles, but outside of those times, we see very few miracles or signs in the Bible. The vast majority of people who lived in Bible times never saw signs and wonders with their own eyes. They had to live by faith in what God had already revealed to them.

    In the early church, the signs and wonders were primarily centered on the first presentation of the gospel among various people groups. On the day of Pentecost, we read that there were “Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven” gathered in Jerusalem (Acts 2:5). It was to these Jews, who had been raised in other lands and spoke those foreign languages (v. 6-11), that the sign of tongues was first given. They acknowledged that they were hearing in their native tongues about the wonderful works of God, and Peter told them that the only appropriate response was to repent of their sins (v. 38). When the gospel was first presented among the Samaritans, Philip did signs and wonders (Acts 8:13).

    Again, when Peter was sent to Cornelius, a Gentile, God gave a miraculous sign to confirm His work. “And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God” (Acts 10:45-46). When Peter was questioned by the other apostles, he gave this as evidence of God’s leading, and the others “glorified God, saying, ‘Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life’” (Acts 11:18).What was the purpose of the biblical sign gifts? | GotQuestions.org

    In every instance, the sign gifts were a confirmation of God’s message and messenger, in order that people might hear and believe. Once the message was confirmed, the signs faded away. We typically don't need those signs to be repeated in our lives, but we do need to receive the same gospel message.got?

    hope this helps !!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  6. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    I have seen too much to believe that...

    And there are some faithful who see these things and don't make a noise about it i.e. Jackie Pullinger in Hong Kong, Canon Andrew White in Bagdad and Fr. Rick Thomas - remember 'Viva Christo Rey' ??

    The harvest is ripe and the labourers are very few...
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You may find this thread I created a while back helpful.

    Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  8. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    One the Bible has been written there is no further need for prophecy and special gifts.
    You didn't mention what God said.....through tounges so "Gods words" are forever lost.
    Not likely God's method.
     
  9. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    This is an argument for the continuation of the Gift of Prophecy. I am not arguing about the other Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

    In Ephesians 4:11-16, Paul talks about the following 5 ministries within the Church and their overall purpose as a group: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers.

    Ephesians 4:11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

    Ephesians 4:13 indicates the condition under which those 5 ministries would cease. So unless you believe Ephesians 4:13 has been fulfilled, the ministry of the Prophet is still active in the body of Christ. The ministry of the Prophet requires the Gift of Prophecy.
     
  10. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Yes - and this is still happening.

    I left NZ with $150 on a jumbo Jet to Jerusalem. The money for the flight came in by faith one hour before the tickets had to be paid for. I was away for 10 weeks and everything I needed was paid - strangers supported me.

    When I got there I didn't have a clue what He wanted so I prayed three days solid in a big leather chair in the King David Hotel. I was down to my last $50. I got to the point of saying "Lord if you wanted a man of faith - you got the wrong guy - I might as well pack up and fly back to NZ."

    Then God...

    A couple came into the Hotel and pointed at me - come with us...

    They were running a ministry giving support to believing Jews in Gilo.

    They took me in - I did practical work for them.

    I observed the way they were operating the ministry and had misgivings but had no authority to speak about it.

    Then I visited and was having dinner with Esther Dorflinger and half way through the meal God spoke to me very deeply, very urgently - leave immediately !!!

    Wow.. how embarrassing but Esther was lovely and 'understood that sort of guidance'

    I jumped in a Taxi and got back to Gilo ASP.

    As the taxi pulled up - it was raining - I saw the husband running down the road - I jumped out of the car and yelled 'what's wrong ? He yelled back 'my wife is having a heart attack I am getting the Doctor.

    Mmmm... God leads me here urgently - lady dying - do I ring the Pastor ?

    No - He wants me to pray.

    I go in the door - she is crying out not to be taken as her children are still young.

    She explained her Auntie died of the same symptoms at the same age...

    Her pulse fast and erratic...

    I pray as led - speaking against the condition in Jesus Name and for healing.

    Within two minutes complete healing and never had a relapse.

    Why am I telling you all this ??

    Because then after seeing God move - they were able to receive words from me that addressed issues in their ministry.

    As you said...

    " the sign gifts were a confirmation of God’s message and messenger, in order that people might hear and believe "

    I have waited 40 years to be able to share this stuff.

    I am an ordinary Joe Blow - no profile - and He wants others to move into this exciting life of faith.
     
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  11. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    You'd better tell the Holy Spirit that - I'm telling you, I've heard, and read about, them.

    Not to the people and congregations involved, they weren't.

    Not at all.
    I don't need to read a written account of what God has said to you before I believe that he has. I am quite sure that you worship him, speak to him, hear and learn from him - I don't need proof, nor details.
    Besides, what makes you think that what God might say to me is at all relevant, or his will, for you? Or what he might say to our medium sized church that is 90% older people, would be at all relevant to a huge church that has many families and young people?

    Jesus said many more things than are written in the Gospels, John 21:25. Does that mean they've all been wasted? No; the disciples heard them and if WE needed to know they would have been recorded.
     
  12. Bob Carabbio

    Bob Carabbio Old guy -

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    Personally, I've been running with Pentecostal and Charismatic folks for over 55 years, and I can STILL count on the fingers of both hands without running out of fingers, the number of times that a "Message in a tongue" has been spoken in a congregational meeting, and there as NOT been an Interpretation thereof - often given by ME as I was Burdened to do so. SO my experience so far is that NOBODY "in the pro-tongues community" glosses over anything as YOU claim we do.
     
  13. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    Essentially, I believe that you are doing what you say that you are not doing, splitting the Gifts up. Yes, we moderns categorize them as to their function but Paul did not do that.

    What is the basis for your saying "This gift does not cease, but the others do?

    That goes without saying; it is a "by definition" statement.

    But your statement begs the question if ever anyone at any time this side of heaven will meet the conditions described here:
    Our hermeneutics (method of "pulling apart Scripture") must be consistent; or else we become like the cults, inconsistent and ignoring context.

    Really, the OP is a difficult issue!
     
  14. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    Is that not almost the same thing that happened when Jesus sent out the 12? No, I am not doubting what you stated, BUT since that happened to you, also, then is that not a case for a continuance of the Gifts?

    I do not believe that they had any A380s during the ministry of Jesus. :p
     
  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Not possible. God doesn't "speak" to people. There is nothing to write down.
    Which is exactly as you claim. There are no modern prophets.

    Knowing God Through Answered Prayer - Steps 1, 2, & 3
     
  16. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    I said "many" because that was my experience. I did not include your name, Bob; you have my permission to dismount from your hobby horse. (Hyperbolic humor, not an intended insult.)

    We go back a long time, before certain Mormons on CARM crashed your website, so I was poking fun at an old friend.
     
  17. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    Given your oft stated unbelief in these things, its no surprise you never witness them!
    Given that you don't move in those circles, you have no idea how frequently tongues get interpreted.
    And I speak with over 40 years of seeing frequent interpretation of tongues.
    You poor thing, but it could all change if you chose to seek him.
    My 50 years experience of God speaking to me and my friends through dreams, visions, prophecies, words of knowledge, words of wisdom etc. has been an amazing experience.

    Even my spirit filled 3 year old son, back in the early 80s had a prophecy about us buying house. That prophecy had a fixed deadline 3 months ahead which came to pass two hours before that last cut off time.
     
  18. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    This is complete nonsense. Just because some didn't believe, you can't denigrate the whole history of Israel
    The whole nation and inheritance of Israel was founded on someone walking by faith and not by sight, ie. Abraham.
    Read Hebrews11 to see the great cloud of witnesses who walked by faith not by sight.
     
  19. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    Jesus had the same problem in some places.-
    Matt13v58Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

    Reading the profound unbelief being expressed on this thread and elsewhere on the forum, it's hardly surprising we see little evidence of healings miracles and the use of gifts.
    Go to the third world and its a very different matter.
     
  20. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    Thank you for expressing it so clearly, I agree whole heartedly.
     
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