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Featured To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JohnT, Sep 15, 2020 at 11:24 PM.

  1. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    I found some definitions from Wiki today, and thought it would be a decent place to express opinions about one's beliefs about the Gifts of Holy Spirit being continued or ceasing. I do request that posters use Scripture in its context to back things up, and also to state "I am just guessing" when you are unsure.

    Just as all of us do not have the same gifts, we do not all have the same ministry.

    1 Corinthians 12:
    4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
    5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
    6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
    7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
    ESV

    Therefore, just I cannot condemn you for being different than me, so also you cannot condemn me for being different than you. However, we ALL must answer to the same Master.

    Let's begin!

    Cessationism is a Protestant doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. Reformers such as John Calvin originated this view. More recent development has tended to focus on other spiritual gifts too, owing to the advent of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement that have popularised a radical continuationism – the position that the spiritual gifts are meant for all Christians in every age.

    Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the spiritual gifts have continued to the present age, specifically those sometimes called[by whom?] "sign gifts",[1] such as tongues and prophecy. Continuationism as a distinct theological position arose in opposition to cessationism.
     
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  2. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    All special gifts have ended based on.....all special gifts have ended. Not even people speaking in tongues bother to seek a translator these days. I have experienced answered prayer a few times and how "it works" fits perfectly with the conclusion that all special gifts have ended.

    Knowing God Through Answered Prayer - Steps 1, 2, & 3
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020 at 11:36 PM
  3. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Love never ends. Prophecy, it will end. Tongues, they will end. Knowledge, it will end. When the complete comes, the partial comes to an end. Since the complete has not yet come, I guess it will take something less than love to get folks going. Give them tongues. Give them prophecy. Without love, it doesn't really matter.

    Edit: Sorry, "I'm just guessing." ;)
     
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  4. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    Good point. Many in the pro-tongues community gloss over that instruction from Paul.
     
  5. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    While that is certainly a controversy, what are you hoping to take place in this thread?

    I got saved in a cessationist church (so I recognize that they are part of the Body of Christ), but God led me to a continuationist church shortly after that. I have not changed my opinion on how to get saved. On cess vs. con, we just have to agree to disagree.
     
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  6. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I have not met a pure continuationist, everyone of us is a cessationist one way or another.

    No one believe that the miracles Jesus did during the 4 Gospels, where he performed all those in front of John the Baptist disciples and quoting Isaiah, are going on today.

    So everyone of us, to a certain extent, is a cessastionist.
     
  7. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    We all know that Paul wrote in 53-57 AD that they all will end, but is not the question in the OP. HAVE the gifts ceased, or should they continue?

    If they were to cease, then what indication do we have of the "ceasing date" some may use 1 Corinthians 13:10 as a basis for ceasing, and then point to the Bible as the "perfect thing"

    1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. ESV

    13 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV

    13 and when that which is perfect may come, then that which is in part shall become useless. Young

    13 οταν δε ελθη το τελειον το εκ μερους καταργηθησεται Wescott & Hort

    It is important to note that τελειον (perfect) is a singular, neuter adjective, and according to the rules Greek grammar, the adjective must agree in case number and gender of the noun that it modifies.

    The article το is a definite article (the), nominative, singular and neuter. Therefore the Greek grammar is correct.

    HOWEVER the Greek word for Bible is feminine. Besides the fact that the word "Bible" does not appear, and the grammar is "incorrect" in gender, thus, those supporting the cessationist position using that reasoning will have a hard time exegeting that verse to support the cessationist position.
     
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  8. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    Simply this, from the OP:

    No fighting, just rational discussion.
     
  9. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    Agreed
     
  10. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    But his point is salient. What matters most? If I can speak in the tongues of angels but have not love...

    If love is the only thing that will remain, what should we be striving for?
     
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  11. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If the church was functioning in Kingdom power and authority, if people were routinely saved, healed and delivered, if the Kingdom of God was the primary focus of all Christians and unity was the norm, not the exception, then I would say that there was no need for spiritual gifts. They are valid for this day and age and we need them more than ever. For sure they are open to abuse and they are no substitute for fruit. But gifts will cease when the church is so pure, so enlightened, so holy, so loving and so powerful that the gifts become redundant. I'm not holding my breath.
     
  12. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Love without power is weak. Power without love is destructive. Both are necessary.
     
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  13. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Both are necessary? Not in this world. Not by us, in this world.

    Huh, that looks a lot like Christ on the cross, doesn't it? When I am weak, then I am strong. So says Paul. Don't confuse the two kingdoms. The kingdoms of this world (power) have no compatibility with the Kingdom of God (love). The church shows itself impotent every time it gets a little power. When will we ever learn?
     
  14. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If Lord Jesus had stayed dead, you would have a point. I'm not talking about the human power that corrupts. Spiritual power is essential. It's the key to the warfare that is essential to casting Satan out and ushering in the reign of the Lord Jesus.
     
  15. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    James 5:14-15
    Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    The individual gift of healing went bye bye. This is how the church is to pray for the sick.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  16. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Without love there's nothing spiritual in it. That's my point. You can talk about fighting and warfare all day long, but as far as we are concerned, if that doesn't translate into love it's just a bunch of noise. A clanging cymbal, if you will.
     
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  17. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Act 1:8
    "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
    Lord Jesus thought the power of the Holy Spirit was important enough to wait for it prior to being His witnesses.
     
  18. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5: 22-23
     
  19. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's for sure not the only means of healing. I had a chronic liver condition when I got saved. I knew nothing of healing, I was spooked by this "Holy Ghost" and I knew nothing of the gifts. I went to a meeting run by Teen Challenge Sydney. The leader had a word of knowledge about my condition. He said that if the individual asked for prayer, they would be healed. Hey, that was me. And I was healed instantly. I also suffered chronic nosebleeds. It started again later that night. I said to myself if God can heal my liver, He can heal this problem too. And He did. Instantly.

    I've had a gift of healing for someone who was in agony with toothache. It was a Sunday and he had a 300 kilometre motor bike ride ahead of him. One of the group said that we should pray. Mr doubt and unbelief (me) said to myself that God does not heal teeth. The Lord said to me, indeed I do! And I had the anointing to pray for this guy and he was healed instantly. I've had nothing like that before or since. Don't put God in a box. He's bigger than anything you can even imagine.
     
  20. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    That is because Israel always needed signs in order for them to believe, ever since Exodus 4, Paul reminded us in 1 Corinthians 1:22.

    But we, in the Body of Christ, walked by faith and not by sight. (2 Cor 5:7)
     
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