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Featured To Cease or to Continue, that is the Question

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JohnT, Sep 15, 2020.

  1. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    Have you spoken to an Evangelical pastor about that, recently? Too many times to count in my ministry (review some of my posts here) it happened with 100% accuracy

    Either you are self-limiting God as to His manner of speaking to His servants, or else you refuse to believe that God can do such a thing, and that may be because of a prejudicial wall that you erected to keep God out of your "theology box".

    This is not snark, but obviously you have never been an Evangelical pastor, nor married to one.

    In reality, I am responding to your personal experiences, as you are to mine. Thus I ask you for some Scripture to back up your position.

    Try reading this: The State Of "Christian Spirituality"
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  2. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    The apostles might not have had any A380s or Boeing Dreamliners, but Paul toured the middle east by the equivalent of the day, boat.
    To find a faster example, you'd have to try Elijah's chariot of fire.
     
  3. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    So so sad.
    I first heard God speak to me back in the 70s. He has been speaking ever since.
    I have many note books of prophecies and words of knowledge that prophets and visionaries have given to me, and words I have received for others.

    I have a long track record of amazing things God has spoken to direct my personal life or business life, and to even save my life.
    If you constantly tell yourself and tell others that God does not speak, then that simply guarantees you will never ever hear if he does.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Oh we communicate. But people just imagine that there are words.
    I have read what people think is prophesy....and knowing scripture, it's not Gods voice they are imagining. He "Speaks" with certainty and modern prophecies are not that.

    Which is why you've not posted anything of it. Also because it's not allowed here, for the reasons I've stated. It has no value.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  5. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    Maybe some modern prophecies are not certain, but I have experienced many that are.

    My son, aged 3, stated with certainty, "Jesus says we are going to have that house, and have it before we go to Norway!"

    We had been negotiating the purchase of a derelict house that God had led us to, then suddenly the agent told us he was selling it to someone else.
    It all sounded fishy, but the agent made it clear that it was a done deal. My wife and I felt very strongly that the agent was working with a builder friend to make money on the renovation project.

    My wife regularly walked past the house daily on her way to the shops, and our son often ran up the path to peek through the window. Immediately following the bad news, as she passed the house he, as usual, ran up the path to the door. She naturally called him back, telling him we can't have that house now.

    My son became quite pensive and on arriving home disappeared into his bedroom. A few minutes later he came out declaring that "Jesus says we are going to have that house and have it before we go to Norway!"

    That gave quite a jolt to my wife and I, making us both seek the face of the Lord for clarity.
    The answer was a very clear affirmative, that my son's words were correct and the house was intended by the Lord for us.

    The Norway deadline was very specific. My mother in law was taking us on a campervan tour of the Norwegian Fiords that summer. We had the ferry across the North Sea booked and any house purchase would have to be agreed before we left home to catch that the ferry. That was about 3 months hence.

    Following God's intervention we immediately went back to the agent and challenged him on his supposed sale of the house, but nothing would shift him.
    Faith comes by hearing, and we had heard God speak. So we started to thank God and to claim that house in prayer every day. Each week we would go and pester the agent, and he would throw us out of his office.

    This carried on for the three months, and then the time approaching our departure arrived. We were due to leave the country on the Tuesday, so the previous Saturday I went in to the agent and pressed him again, all to no avail. I then told him we were leaving the country for 3 weeks and I wanted him to take my written confirmation of the offer and a token check to back it. I had also arranged for a friend to handle our affairs in my absence.

    He very grudgingly took my letter, dropped it in the filing cabinet, slammed the drawer shut and rudely asked me to leave his office.

    Come the Tuesday, we were up early packing the campervan, and getting ready to drive off at our 2pm deadline.
    At 12am, the phone rang, it was the agent.

    "The sale has fallen through, would you like to come in and sign the papers?"

    Would we ever?
    We tore into town and to his office, and shortly after, we had signed the contract to purchase the property.
    As we were leaving, the agent meekly asked us, "How did you know?"

    Our simple answer, "The Lord told us 3 months ago!"

    That simple prophecy, spoken by a 3 year old boy who knew nothing of the intrigues of house purchase, was timetabled against a deadline 3 months hence. It came to pass 2 hours short of that deadline, giving is just enough time to get to the agent and back before our departure deadline.
    That describes certainty and precision in modern prophecy.

    I have had many prophecies and visions with this level of certainty and precision.
     
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  6. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    Read my first sentence - I did not say the others cease. I was trying to build a case.

    If Ephesians 14:11-13 proves that the Gift of Prophecy is for today because the exit clause of Ephesians 14:13 has obviously not been met, then the exit clause used for all the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 13:10 cannot apply to the Gift of Prophecy. If it does not apply to Prophecy, it does not apply to all the others as well. Therefore, the "Perfect has come" exit condition in 1 Corinthians 13:10 has not yet been met either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  7. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Of course Abraham was not like the Jews, but then again he was a pagan before God called him. Jews did not exist until after him.

    But Are you saying you don’t agree with what Paul stated in 1 cor 1:22 as well as what went down in exodus 4?

    I could also show you what Gideon said in judges.
     
  8. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I am saying, contrary to what you are claiming, you are not a pure continualist. You are still a partial cessationist

    nevertheless if you Still want to insist you are, I am fine and we can move on
     
  9. Bob Carabbio

    Bob Carabbio Old guy -

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    Yup - seems that you've been a Carmite for a LONG time,like me. It seems that they've "given up" on V-Bulletin (although it seemed to be functioning this weekend). So we'll see what happens there next -

    In the meantime I've been trying out various other forums, including this one. I didn't realize the LDS folks were responsible for the debacle (I wondered if it was Democrats - Snork!!).
     
  10. JohnT

    JohnT Regular Member

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    This was the first sentence:

    You must see that you have made 2 different categories of gifts.
    The first category is "prophesy".
    The second category is "every other gift"

    Why is the one continuing, and why is there an exclusion of all others?. It is another "by definition, definition". I am not taking any position, yet, but consistence of interpretation demands that there must be a reason why. according to your belief, that one stays, and eleven cease.

    You see, if it is the case that Ephesians supports continuance, then there should likewise be Scriptures to demonstrate the situation of the other 11 Gifts.

    As you are presenting it, there is evidence for prophecy continuing in Ephesians 4, but there is silence about the other eleven. Logically, the only thing that silence proves is silence on THAT issue.

    What is the basis for your saying "This gift does not cease, but the others do?

    Some pertinent questions about that verse:

    Where in Ephesians or any of the books Paul wrote is the phrase "until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God "defined"? If there is no definition found, then no one can actually determine if those conditions are wholly met.

    And if that is the case, being undefined is true, then those attempting to make a sure statement that that proves...... then that person is essentially arguing from silence, and as I stated earlier, silence on an issue only proves silence on THAT issue.

    The same argument as above also skewers this phrase, "attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Since it is not defined, there is no one who can say, "it means thus and such"

    That leaves the person who is advocating a positive response where a negative situation (nothing defined nor explained) in the position of relying more on wishful thinking than on exegesis of the Word.

    I understand that you may not like the reasoning that I expressed, but if I am in error, please demonstrate it, and show it.

    BTW I am not attacking any posters. Instead, I am laying out some of the logical traps we fall into if we do not do diligence to logical thoughts and conclusions.
     
  11. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    Let me rephrase my argument in a better manner - step-by-step.

    1. If I examine one of the gifts of the Spirit, I have not literally created a separation of the gifts of the Spirit into two categories. I am just discussing one of the gifts of the Spirit. Do you agree or disagree with that set of statements?
    2. The criteria listed for the termination of the 5 fold Ministries (of Ephesians 4:11-12) is contained in Ephesians 4:13. Although someone could write a book on all the facets of Ephesians 4:13, you don't have to go very deep to know that all the criteria in Ephesians 4:13 has not come close to coming to pass. For example, does anyone believe that the body of Christ has come to the unity of the faith (how many denominations? and still growing), much less attained to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (consider the condition of the barely saved in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15). Do you agree or disagree that you are confident that ALL of the conditions of Ephesians 4:13 have NOT yet come to pass?
    3. If the Ministry of the Prophet still stands because the termination conditions in Ephesians 4:13 have not been met (#2), then the Gift of Prophecy has not ceased. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?
    4. 1 Corinthians 13:10 speaks of when the gifts of the spirit will cease (which is when the perfect has come). That ceasing condition is brief and not precise enough for humans NOT to interpret it a number of different ways. The true interpretation of this verse, which God knows, affects whether the gifts have ceased. Do you agree or disagree with that last statement?
    5. In speaking of gifts ceasing: 1 Corinthians 13:10 does not differentiate between the various gifts and therefore if some of the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased, then the ceasing condition listed in 1 Corinthians 13:10 does not apply. If the ceasing condition does not apply, then no gift has ceased. Do you agree or disagree with that set of statements?
    6. If you agree with 1 through 5, then logically the Gifts of the Spirit have not ceased. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

    JohnT,
    You have stated your altruistic nature. If you only see minor flaws in this later step-by-step revision, feel free to propose edits to my work. IF there are major flaws, just point them out. Given your feedback, this outline should be easier to critique.

    Thank You - in Christ
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020 at 3:18 AM
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  12. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes, he does.
    Jesus said "my sheep listen to my voice". It doesn't have to be an audible voice, though it may be on occasions. God can also speak through Scripture, other people, sermons/devotional writings or circumstances.
     
  13. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    I have two pages that may interest you, the first list a handful of miracles God has performed in my life. Everybody Matters Ministry | Online Church The second lists my view on divine healing, of which I have seen a few Divine Healing | Everybody Matters Ministry

    In my opinion, there is no valid reason for the ceasing of Spiritual gifts biblically. Healing as an example, there is some help in emotional comfort, but much more help in divine intervention. In reality what Christain if their child got sick would not pray. Really you have to throw out half the bible if you say spiritual gifts have ceased. Faith, no longer has any meaning. Why have faith in a God who will not do anything?
     
  14. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    The perfect ting that Paul speaks of is not the bible, they had the bible, it is when Jesus returns. That is the only time there will be perfection, at that time the gifts are no longer needed. At the moment we live in a fallen and dying world.

    Sickness is an evil, Jesus said:

    Luke 13:16 And is it not right for this daughter of Abraham, who has been in the power of Satan for eighteen years, to be made free on the Sabbath?

    Satan is still today at work in peoples lives, bringing sickness, and deceit, should God leave us with no tools to fight the devil. He has let us with tools, the tools of faith. Faith in Jesus and His word.
     
  15. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    When you claim they had the bible, do you meant scripture was completed when 1 Cor was written by Paul? That they had both the OT and NT available?

    And Paul explained to the Body of Christ in Romans 8:18 onwards, our weapon against various kind of sufferings, what do you think he was saying there?
     
  16. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    Pauls suffering was not the suffering of sickness, he cured it many times if you read Acts, he is not saying we should be prepared to have sickness and loss, because God will no longer be with you, that he will withdraw the gifts. His suffering was as follows:

    2Co 11:24-28 Five times the Jews gave me forty blows but one. Three times I was whipped with rods, once I was stoned, three times the ship I was in came to destruction at sea, a night and a day I have been in the water; In frequent travels, in dangers on rivers, in dangers from outlaws, in dangers from my countrymen, in dangers from the Gentiles, in dangers in the town, in dangers in the waste land, in dangers at sea, in dangers among false brothers; In hard work and weariness, in frequent watchings, going without food and drink, cold and in need of clothing. In addition to all the other things, there is that which comes on me every day, the care of all the churches.

    As for the bible it is a collection of letters that were written at the time of Paul.
     
  17. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Paul suffered a lot, not all are sicknesses, I can agree but I am asking you, what was Paul telling us to look forward to, in times of present sufferings, which also includes sickness and disease?

    You must remember that Paul did work signs and wonders before, his hankerchiefs could heal anyone, but by the end of his life, he could only advise Timothy to drink wine for his illness.

    As for the Bible, are you saying the Body of Christ in 1 Cor had all the letters completed already? Do you know when was 1 Cor written in the first place?
     
  18. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    The verse you quote is clearly been added to the bible. See the context of the passage:

    Verses above we are talking about sin.

    1Ti 5:22 Do not put hands on any man without thought, and have no part in other men's sins: keep yourself clean.

    Suddenly we are out of context talking about drinking wine.

    1Ti 5:23 Do not take only water as your drink, but take a little wine for the good of your stomach, and because you are frequently ill.

    Then we are back to talking about sin.

    1Ti 5:24 The sins of some men are clearly seen, going before them to be judged; but with others, their sins go after them.

    Vesre 1 Tim 5:23 is clearly been added by some one at a latter date, it has no context.

    Paul may have fluctuated through his ministry, he may not have been able to heal all the time. See the following, which seems to indicate there were times God showed special grace:

    Act 14:3 So they kept there for a long time, taking heart in the Lord, who gave witness to the word of his grace by causing signs and wonders to be done by their hands.


    You say at the end of Paul's ministry that he performed no signs, that he was limping into death. That is not true. The very last book of acts, states:

    Act 28:8 And the father of Publius was ill, with a disease of the stomach; to whom Paul went, and put his hands on him, with prayer, and made him well.
     
  19. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Not even close.
    Scripture, for Jesus and the early church, was the OT. Jesus, and the apostles, quoted from it often.
    Paul's epistles were written before the Gospels. Paul died in 62-64 AD, the earliest Gospel was written around 65 AD. Revelation was written around 90 AD.

    The canon of Scripture was finalised in 300+ AD - i.e that was when the church decided which books should be in the NT and joined it together with the OT to make the Bible.
     
  20. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    All I mean is there is nothing "special" about scripture, in the sense that it is the perfect thing that would do away signs, yes the OT was their scripture, but Paul wrote most of the NT, the churches had their letters. They also quoted from books that were never made a part of the bible, so in reality, the bible is not complete. It is truth, the truth, but it is not the "perfect thing".
     
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