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Tithing, A requirement?

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groktruth

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Our righteousness lies in Christ and Him alone. Our works are filthy rags. It's ironic that you question people's salvation regarding works and yet Paul would probably question yours because of the misplaced faith you have in works.

Want to exceed the Pharisees righteousness? No problem. Start by never walking more than 3/5 of a mile on the Sabbath, not lighting a fire (including a gas hotplate or oven) on the Sabbath, adhering to all their washings and ceremonial works etc etc.

There is a better way ..... choose to accept Christ and His sacrifice and stop relying on your filthy rags.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Faith is "the evidence of things not seen." Now, whatever we do, we remain unprofitable servants. Our righteousness as filthy rags refers to the fact that the only righteousness we are capable of is dealing with our filth. But, we are saved through faith. By grace, yes, but through faith. Through evidence, of things not seen. What is not seen? God's knowing us. What is the evidence? The level of our giving, in response to our repentance from selfishness. Our maybe just our repentance, if that tree has not grown to a size to produce fruit appropriate to repentance.

The deluded, as we know from the many stories Jesus told of judgement day, are sure they are saved. They only find out otherwise when it is too late. Maybe they "have searched the scriptures, thinking that in them" they have truth and eternal life, knowing the Lord, and being known by Him.
But Jesus is the truth, not the scriptures. His sheep know His voice, and believe because He told them that all is well with them. They will not be disappointed on Judgement day. If, after judging and discerning the spirits, one hears Him say this, that is that. But, If anyone struggles to know the Lord's voice, ask Him about tithing and giving and repenting. Do a fruit check on yourself. Judge yourself and you won't be judged.
 
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Mister_Al

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Faith is "the evidence of things not seen." Now, whatever we do, we remain unprofitable servants. Our righteousness as filthy rags refers to the fact that the only righteousness we are capable of is dealing with our filth. But, we are saved through faith. By grace, yes, but through faith. Through evidence, of things not seen. What is not seen? God's knowing us. What is the evidence? The level of our giving, in response to our repentance from selfishness. Our maybe just our repentance, if that tree has not grown to a size to produce fruit appropriate to repentance.

The deluded, as we know from the many stories Jesus told of judgement day, are sure they are saved. They only find out otherwise when it is too late. Maybe they "have searched the scriptures, thinking that in them" they have truth and eternal life, knowing the Lord, and being known by Him.
But Jesus is the truth, not the scriptures. His sheep know His voice, and believe because He told them that all is well with them. They will not be disappointed on Judgement day. If, after judging and discerning the spirits, one hears Him say this, that is that. But, If anyone struggles to know the Lord's voice, ask Him about tithing and giving and repenting. Do a fruit check on yourself. Judge yourself and you won't be judged.


What do you mean that Jesus is the truth, not the Scriptures? Aren't the Scriptures the very words that speak of Jesus. How did you learn about Jesus if not from the Scriptures? If you know of Jesus at all that knowledge came to you at some point from the Scriptures.

These same scriptures tell us that Jesus fulfilled the Law (which includes tithing) as a means of righteousness. That means that in Christ you are righteous before God if you tithe or not.

Also, the gentiles never were under the Law. The Law was between God and Israel, and not God and the world. The gentiles never were required to tithe because it wasn't commanded of them to do so. Being a profitable servant has nothing to do with tithing but watching over your Master's house.

I know the Lords voice, and I know the Scriptures, and neither of them have yet to tell me I have to tithe.


Blessings,

Alan
 
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groktruth

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What do you mean that Jesus is the truth, not the Scriptures? Aren't the Scriptures the very words that speak of Jesus. How did you learn about Jesus if not from the Scriptures? If you know of Jesus at all that knowledge came to you at some point from the Scriptures.

These same scriptures tell us that Jesus fulfilled the Law (which includes tithing) as a means of righteousness. That means that in Christ you are righteous before God if you tithe or not.

Also, the gentiles never were under the Law. The Law was between God and Israel, and not God and the world. The gentiles never were required to tithe because it wasn't commanded of them to do so. Being a profitable servant has nothing to do with tithing but watching over your Master's house.

I know the Lords voice, and I know the Scriptures, and neither of them have yet to tell me I have to tithe.


Blessings,

Alan

The scriptures are a recipe for getting into the presence of the Lord. Like recipes in a cook book, they are not the meal, but directions for getting the meal. Big difference. He is the meal, the truth. The recipe is true, which means that if you do what is written, you get what is promised. But it is not the truth, a source of words on any subject that you can bet your whole life on. That would be Jesus Himself.

Now, God tells me that He will keep the promise of testing Him in Malachi, where tithing brings prosperity, for any human being who attempts it as such. And, any effort to tell any non-tither that they are thieves, robbing God, He will meet with conviction. Of course, believers who are giving beyond the tithe will be comforted. He encourages dealing with anyone in destitute poverty with this message, that they may prosper. (Probably deluded) believers who give at below tithing levels ought to check in with Him about their salvation.

Now, the issue of "having" to tithe for salvation is not on my table. That's not what He tells me is involved in "keeping the least of the law and the prophets, and so teaching others," (Matthew 5:19) which, He says, I can do if I aspire to be great in His Kingdom. The point is that there is wisdom and life in the law, and we do well to ask Him what word from His mouth we might obey to keep any and all of the law. The lawless forget this, He says, and He says that He doesn't know them, where they are coming from, what their spiritual agenda is. He understands those who are looking for ideas to solve problems, wisdom, and want to include both Him and His law in the process.

I am pleased to hear that you know His voice, but in judging myself, whenever I catch myself saying what I did NOT hear, I retreat as quickly as possible to my prayer closet. No one cares what we do not hear, except someone praying for our soul as one who gives an account, who wants to know when we have fallen into spiritual trouble. We are admonished to share what we do hear.

God said that he intended for all nations to be blessed through Abraham's descendants bringing the law to all. The law was a major step in delivering any and all peoples from the nastier aspects of slavery to Satan, and for tutoring that brings to Christ. Nothing about it is arbitrary, and all of it, as wisdom, brings a measure of salvation, as abundantly as one sows into it. But, the law itself says to obey God's voice, asking about the law. There is little encouragement to obey the law itself.

If such faithful tithing brings increase to my master's house, and rids it of the devourer, as it fact it does, why not? But the fervent effectual prayer of the righteous is more profitable.
 
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Crankitup

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..... Money lovers will use saved-by-grace ideas as an excuse to hang on to their money. James', "show me your faith by your works", applies to your level of giving. If it is less than the only affirmed righteousness of the Pharisees, tithing, and you are not repenting of this, you will probably die.

Just thought you would want to know.

rolleyes.gif


Why is it that whenever I get into a conversation with modern-day Pharisees about the non-applicability of the tithe today, they always end up subtly accusing me of greed or at least insinuating the possibility?

Just because I no longer believe Christians are obligated to stick to the Mosaic Law and get circumcised or tithe, doesn't mean I no longer believe in giving. In fact shortly after I came to the conclusion that believers under the New Covenant aren't obligated to tithe as dictated by the Mosaic Law, I gave $2500 and then $2000 (money partially obtained from selling an asset and from savings) in two free will offerings to help plant a new church in South Africa.

I think even the Old Testament illustrates what believers are inclined to do when given a chance to give freely as opposed to what they do in response to being yoked under the bondage of the law.

When the Israelites started building the tabernacle at Mount Sinai, the people gave freely (Ex. 35:20-29). They gave so much, Moses had to tell them to stop giving (Ex. 36:3-7). Also, in the time of Joash, the high priest Jehoiada made a chest for freewill offerings for repairs on the temple, and they gave generously (2 Kings 12:9-10). Later in the time of Hezekiah, people gave freely for the reconstruction work required on the temple (2 Chr. 31:5-19). These were free will offerings.

OTOH Malachi gives an example of people failing to follow the law in their giving. Just as a side note, most of Malachi is directed to the priests; "And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you." - Mal 2:1. Maybe the priests weren't giving their tithe of the tithe (the heave offering). Or maybe the Levites weren't receiving their fair share because Eliashib opened the temple storerooms to Tobiah (the Molech-worshipping pagan).
 
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Crankitup

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..... What is not seen? God's knowing us. What is the evidence? The level of our giving ....

... If anyone struggles to know the Lord's voice, ask Him about tithing and giving and repenting.

Did that years ago. He wants me to free as many as possible from the bondage of tithing according to the Mosaic Law (as dictated by many churches that take advantage of people by using fear to control them).
 
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groktruth

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Did that years ago. He wants me to free as many as possible from the bondage of tithing according to the Mosaic Law (as dictated by many churches that take advantage of people by using fear to control them).

Good work! There is much manipulative and useless giving under the guise of legalism, and I pray you prosper in delivering many from it.
 
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Mister_Al

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The scriptures are a recipe for getting into the presence of the Lord. Like recipes in a cook book, they are not the meal, but directions for getting the meal. Big difference. He is the meal, the truth. The recipe is true, which means that if you do what is written, you get what is promised. But it is not the truth, a source of words on any subject that you can bet your whole life on. That would be Jesus Himself.

Now, God tells me that He will keep the promise of testing Him in Malachi, where tithing brings prosperity, for any human being who attempts it as such. And, any effort to tell any non-tither that they are thieves, robbing God, He will meet with conviction. Of course, believers who are giving beyond the tithe will be comforted. He encourages dealing with anyone in destitute poverty with this message, that they may prosper. (Probably deluded) believers who give at below tithing levels ought to check in with Him about their salvation.

Now, the issue of "having" to tithe for salvation is not on my table. That's not what He tells me is involved in "keeping the least of the law and the prophets, and so teaching others," (Matthew 5:19) which, He says, I can do if I aspire to be great in His Kingdom. The point is that there is wisdom and life in the law, and we do well to ask Him what word from His mouth we might obey to keep any and all of the law. The lawless forget this, He says, and He says that He doesn't know them, where they are coming from, what their spiritual agenda is. He understands those who are looking for ideas to solve problems, wisdom, and want to include both Him and His law in the process.

I am pleased to hear that you know His voice, but in judging myself, whenever I catch myself saying what I did NOT hear, I retreat as quickly as possible to my prayer closet. No one cares what we do not hear, except someone praying for our soul as one who gives an account, who wants to know when we have fallen into spiritual trouble. We are admonished to share what we do hear.

God said that he intended for all nations to be blessed through Abraham's descendants bringing the law to all. The law was a major step in delivering any and all peoples from the nastier aspects of slavery to Satan, and for tutoring that brings to Christ. Nothing about it is arbitrary, and all of it, as wisdom, brings a measure of salvation, as abundantly as one sows into it. But, the law itself says to obey God's voice, asking about the law. There is little encouragement to obey the law itself.

If such faithful tithing brings increase to my master's house, and rids it of the devourer, as it fact it does, why not? But the fervent effectual prayer of the righteous is more profitable.

If you don't believe the Scriptures are the truth then how can you trust them to lead you to Jesus? And if that is the only purpose the Scripture serves then I guess you don't have to read it any more after you get saved.

God said that he intended for all nations to be blessed through Abraham's seed (Jesus). This was a reference to salvation and not through keeping the Law which wasn't given for another 430 years.


Galatians 3:16-18 (Amplified Bible)

16) Now the promises (covenants, agreements) were decreed and made to Abraham and his Seed (his Offspring, his Heir). He [God] does not say, And to seeds (descendants, heirs), as if referring to many persons, but, And to your Seed (your Descendant, your Heir), obviously referring to one individual, Who is [none other than] Christ (the Messiah).

17) This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void.

18) For if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise.



Blessings,

Alan
 
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Mister_Al

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In the book of Malachi God is rebuking the Priests for sacrificing blind, lame, and sick animals to Him and keeping the best ones for themselves thereby robbing God of what was rightfully His.

It doesn't take but about ten minutes to read the entire book of Malachi if anyone should like to read it for themselves.

Be Blessed,

Alan
 
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groktruth

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If you don't believe the Scriptures are the truth then how can you trust them to lead you to Jesus? And if that is the only purpose the Scripture serves then I guess you don't have to read it any more after you get saved.

God said that he intended for all nations to be blessed through Abraham's seed (Jesus). This was a reference to salvation and not through keeping the Law which wasn't given for another 430 years.


Galatians 3:16-18 (Amplified Bible)

16) Now the promises (covenants, agreements) were decreed and made to Abraham and his Seed (his Offspring, his Heir). He [God] does not say, And to seeds (descendants, heirs), as if referring to many persons, but, And to your Seed (your Descendant, your Heir), obviously referring to one individual, Who is [none other than] Christ (the Messiah).

17) This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void.

18) For if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise.



Blessings,

Alan

Why do I believe the scriptures are true insofar, and only insofar, as they lead us to Jesus? A. This is their claim. If they were otherwise true, then they would have to be lying about themselves, a logical contradiction. B. I tried what they said would work, and it did work. Thus, the evidence of what I hoped for (contact with Jesus Himself) was realized, giving me faith. Finally, 3. when I asked Him about the scriptures, after we made contact, He said not to take anything else in them as a basis for doctrine, as literally true, but to take everything in them as a basis for further conversation with Him. Especially any commandments. Also, to use them as a second witness to anything He told me, especially in the early stages of my learning to recognize His voice, and learning to discern the spirits. When I confessed what I thought I was hearing, more faith (that comes from hearing) came. He said that modern Galatians say that the bible is "the word of God," a title reserved for Him. This would be how I might discern them, as promised in Malachi.

Tithing is A. a spiritual principle that always works, the exercise of which prepares the way of the Lord for unbelievers. B. A sign, or milepost, warning or reassuring believers as to their salvation. Clearly, not all tithers or givers at or beyond that level are saved. But anyone believing they are saved not giving at this standard is wise to "be even more diligent to make sure of their calling and election." Tithing can not "buy" salvation, anymore than a signpost to Kansas City will get me a steak dinner. But, if I am looking forward to a steak dinner, and the sign says that I am going the wrong direction, best to get out the map, and stop some authority and ask directions. But, tithing is NOT required for salvation. Faith is, knowing His voice, repenting of falling short of His Glory. Tithing/giving is only a useful signpost on a perilous journey.
 
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GaryArnold

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NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.

Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18: The First Tithe - a tenth of crops and animals and commanded to take the tithe to the Levites.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27: The Second Tithe aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29: The Third Tithe aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.

Now, tell me. Which of the above three tithes commanded by God does anyone follow today?

The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it. No one else tithed. Wage earners did not tithe. Jesus didn’t tithe. Paul didn’t tithe. Peter didn’t tithe.

HOW CAN YOU COMPARE THAT WITH CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE TO PAY THEIR MORTGAGE PAYMENT OR RENT, INCOME TAXES, PROPERTY TAXES, SALES TAXES, ETC?

There is no way to justify making some “principle” out of the Biblical facts and then apply it to Christians today. It is just flat out wrong and makes no sense at all.

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God. After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God. Then he self-appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe or his gifts. God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if your pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Lucky for those of you who think you tithe, you are merely giving a tenth of your income to your church. You aren't paying the Biblical tithe or you would be disobeying God's command to take His tithe to the Levites. But then, if in your heart you are paying the Biblical tithe, wouldn’t that be sinning by breaking God's commands?
 
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Crankitup

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....

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe or his gifts. God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if your pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

....

Brilliantly put.
 
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Goinheix

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Thank you for telling us that you were only pretending to hear God speak to you! Had me preparing for a serious, perhaps difficult converation with God!

Do you see God as an all-powerful, loving Father, who is not able or willing to have heart to heart talks with His children? Who chooses for them to get His "word" through reading a book? While frequently holding up before us examples of prophets, and Moses, who talked to Him face to face? I would hesitate, of course, to compare myself to Moses, except Jesus said, and put it in writing, that I was greater than Moses.

You give the impression, truth be told, that you hope that none of us can actually have such talks. I hope that is not true.

I really hope you and many christians are simple people with a sincere heart ready to ear God. I believe that God still talks to us, to all of us, throu the Spirit, but I am afraid that our own thots and feelings are louder and we can not lisent to God talking.

Probably you and many more christinas do lisent to God, or perhaps you lisent to your self and sincerelly belive is God voice and not your own.

What I never ever will do is to follow some christinas in the base that he had recieve God voice. Not in that base. If some one said he did lisent to God, that is good only for him self. There is not a way I can know if he is confusing his own voice, or if he is just la lier making a ful of me.
 
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groktruth

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I really hope you and many christians are simple people with a sincere heart ready to ear God. I believe that God still talks to us, to all of us, throu the Spirit, but I am afraid that our own thots and feelings are louder and we can not lisent to God talking.

Probably you and many more christinas do lisent to God, or perhaps you lisent to your self and sincerelly belive is God voice and not your own.

What I never ever will do is to follow some christinas in the base that he had recieve God voice. Not in that base. If some one said he did lisent to God, that is good only for him self. There is not a way I can know if he is confusing his own voice, or if he is just la lier making a ful of me.

I seek a balance between not despising personal prophecy, discerning and avoiding false prophets, and hearing and listening to other prophets judge the prophecy that is publicly spoken by believers. As you note, all of us have personal faith through what we hear ourselves. So, when I myself hear God say that the prophetic word spoken by another is for me, here, and now, I get faith to walk in what was prophesied. I have asked God for the discerning of spirits, that I might test them correctly. My experience with what He taught me has been satisfactory. But, faith is evidence of things not seen. In the end, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I know of not a single report of anyone who sincerely tried to test God with their best understanding of tithing, who did not begin to prosper in extraordinary ways. So, when I seem to be hearing God tell me that He will keep this promise, to minister to the poor, and to build faith, that I, keeping His Son's command to teach the law and the prophets, even the least, if I want to be great in the kingdom, when I seem to be hearing all this, and when all the evidence confirms it's truth, I carry on in confidence. But what other prophets hear, in judgment, remains of interest.
 
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Goinheix

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Youu are talking about wath you think, what you believe, what you do. That is OK for you. You are you, and have all the right to go your way. But what you says is not for anybody else. What you says is not a good advice or a good experience to share, not something to encourage others to follow your example. Godd for you, period.
 
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Goinheix

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Any how, I wonder: are we disscusing tithing or what?
At the end of the day:
1 there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that tels a Christian that he has to tithe.
2 there is strong warning against those tithing or observing any other Moses comand.
 
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groktruth

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Any how, I wonder: are we disscusing tithing or what?
At the end of the day:
1 there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that tels a Christian that he has to tithe.
2 there is strong warning against those tithing or observing any other Moses comand.

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practise lawlessness." (Matt 7:22-23)

Lawlessness. What might the practise of lawlessness be? The fact is, everyone who tithes prospers, because God blesses them. And, He tells me that those who give below the tithe, and think that they are saved, are almost certainly deluded. He tells me to warn about this as I have opportunity, lest the blood of those who think that they are saved, but are deluded, is on my hands.
 
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groktruth

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But, this does not negate the teaching that tithing/giving or any other work will not suffice for salvation. It is a necessary condition, not a sufficient one. Faith, from hearing, is sufficient. If God, knowing you, tells you that you are saved, then you are saved. But few report that that have ever had any such conversation with God. "The bible says..." will not cut it. Sorry, if that is bad news.
 
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Goinheix

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Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practise lawlessness." (Matt 7:22-23)

I see that you fail in searching for a single verse that teaches Christians to tithe. Becase Mat 7:22-23 does not. Probably you mean that we have to observ the Moses Law. We dont. But if we have, we have to observ 600 plus laws, not only tithing. Pastor teach that lie in orther to get the tithe, but never speek one worth of the other 600 rules to observ.

Any how. Do you want to tithe as Moses teached? You have to tithe out of your land fruits. Moses did never, ever said that tithe is of the salary, or any money at all.
 
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Goinheix

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Everyone who tithes prospers, because God blesses them.

And, He tells me that those who give below the tithe, and think that they are saved, are almost certainly deluded.

He tells me to warn about this as I have opportunity, lest the blood of those who think that they are saved, but are deluded, is on my hands.

there is not a minimun biblical support for those lies.
 
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