Tithing, A requirement?

[pointman7a]

I have talked to people who tithe and question this legalist aspect. They responded by saying its the Principle they follow or giving of your First Fruits to God not necessarily obeying a Old Testament command . I have also heard of the teaching of "Seed Faith."

 

[Frogster]

I have talked to people who tithe and question this legalist aspect. They responded by saying its the Principle they follow or giving of your First Fruits to God not necessarily obeying a Old Testament command . I have also heard of the teaching of "Seed Faith."

In the OT days, the firstfruit, was just a little basket of fruit.
The "faith seeds" of 2 Cor 8-9, were for the poor, as per 8:4, 9:1, and 9:12, for the poor of Jersualem, as seen in 1 Cor 16, and rom 15.

Tithe teachers mangle the text, by trying to get money for themselves, using those verses, where Paul was trying to get money for poor, not him.

They (tithe teachers, money grubbers)say, to sow your seed to them.

 

[Frogster]

!. I still know of no one who had tested God with tithing according to Malachi, and not seen a miraculous increase in prosperity.

2. That passage says that not tithing releases "the devourer" in the land. so, not tithing is why we have so much demonic activity in the land.

3. Not tithing is supposedly stealing from God, who controls the government. The punishment for stealing is to pay back four-fold what was stolen. So, God's government taxes non-tithers four fold what is not tithed (or given.) Hence our current tax rates.

4. This is just, because the government has to deal with crime, or other demonic activity. Non-tithers cause more of this, more expense to the government.

5. People are poor because they are stealing from God. All tithers prosper. Poor people getting charity ought to be told why they are poor, and exhorted to test God as he says, to start prospering. Hence, charity ought never to be a non-religious government activity. When the churches are solely responsible for charity, they can teach those seeking help how to prosper in God.

Mal 3:9 is a levitical curse, to those who were under that law, the priesthood is over, and so is the curse, the gentiles never tithed to the priesthood anyway, that was under the old cov, and the curses and ordinances are abolished, it was levitical law.

Are we under a curse if we eat pork, shrimp, crab, lobster etc? that was Moses too.


5 And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, [1] though these also are descended from Abraham.

 

[Frogster]

We agree more than one might think. First, I agree that the prosperity that comes from tithing is an outpouring from heaven, including a recognition of what is true wealth. The fine cars are what I believe James is talking about when he warns woe to those who are rich. "Let the poor say 'I am rich.'" So, I watched for an honest expression of prosperity, peace, joy, giving generously, and a freedom from the poisonous riches declared by the world.

Second, in my role as a watchman, I have found both greater faithfulness and effectiveness as I was faithful, first in tithing, then in giving. The world has experienced less of the "devourer" since then. As I have watched others get restless about sin in the world, and asked God about it, He has told me that deep inside many sense their own guilt, through their robbing God in not tithing or giving. So, my prophetic experience confirms this reasonable argument.

Third, the law is a tutor to lead to Christ, and our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees for us to truly receive salvation. Jesus commended them for at least tithing. A "by this you know" which we look at to "be sure of our calling and election," is our giving. Believers ought not tithe, but they ought to be giving way above the tithe. If they are not, they ought to question their salvation, and start using the tithe as the minimum standard of their giving. Many "believe" they are saved, but are deluded, according to the parables about salvation given by Jesus. "Tithing," as an act of "buying the truth" and as a refresher course with the tutor, will squelch this delusion.

Your kind of saying 2 things here, Jesus showed them they tithed, yet they did not keep the law, which shows hypocrisy, yet you seem to use them as our example of righteousness, by tithing. Question salvation? Then does salvation come by tithing, or works? They tithed, but were hypocrites.

 

[groktruth]

Well you keep precise enough track of it to know assuredly that it exceeds 10% of your gross income. Can you be just as sure that it would exceed 23% which is the figure you would have to pay if you wanted to tithe correctly? That's right, the tithe under the Mosaic Law ended up amounting to 23%. Roughly equivalent to the average tax rate many working people are paying today. 23% + 23% = 46% and if you easily exceed that we're looking at more than 1/2 your wage going to the tax-man and the church. Can you in all honesty stand before God and declare that you are doing this?

If you're not I have some good news for you. It doesn't matter. The command was issued to Israel when they were under the Mosaic Law. It was never issued to Christians under the New Covenant. Try reading the book of Galatians with tithing in the back of your mind and you'll get the drift.

Well, probably my giving even exceeds that level of pharisaical righteousness. But, I don't pay many taxes. Feel very rich. Hear God tell me often that all is well with my soul, and walk in substantial faith that comes from hearing that affirmation. And, as I say, enjoy great satisfaction at watching evil overcome with good. Seeing prayers answered. So, I have bet my life on the revelation, wisely in retrospect.

Not to discourage reading of Galations. We live by every word that proceeds from God's mouth, not any knowledge of good and evil. The law is for those not yet walking in revelation, who don't yet know His voice. Adhere to the law, and it will bring you to hearing Him prophetically.

 

[groktruth]

Your kind of saying 2 things here, Jesus showed them they tithed, yet they did not keep the law, which shows hypocrisy, yet you seem to use them as our example of righteousness, by tithing. Question salvation? Then does salvation come by tithing, or works? They tithed, but were hypocrites.

Tithing was as far as their righteousness went, according to Jesus. Ours must go further, if we want to enter the kingdom. Now, our righteousness is perfected through faith that He became sin with our sin, that we might be righteous with His righteousness. He speaks that to us, we hear it, we confess or repeat what we heard, and faith comes through which we are saved. If we have not tithed, or given even more generously, and are convicted, we might confess this as sin, be forgiven, and set on the path to be transformed into a cheerful giver. We are of course saved the moment we confess the sin, whatever the conviction.

Take time in your prayer closet to "make sure of your calling and election." This is the strongest exhortation in all of scripture. ("with even more than all diligence") Seek to be convicted of whatever He may want you to repent of. My counsel here is only that: counsel. Something for you to ask Him about. Something you might try, if you cannot honestly report that you know His voice.

 

[Timothew]

I have talked to people who tithe and question this legalist aspect. They responded by saying its the Principle they follow or giving of your First Fruits to God not necessarily obeying a Old Testament command . I have also heard of the teaching of "Seed Faith."

I give to a christian charity that provides food, jobs, and the gospel for the poor in third world countries. This doesn't seem to count with the tithe teachers who only want the 10% to go to them. I don't get that, should I stop helping the poor so that I can give 10% to a church in a wealthy nation?

 

[groktruth]

I give to a christian charity that provides food, jobs, and the gospel for the poor in third world countries. This doesn't seem to count with the tithe teachers who only want the 10% to go to them. I don't get that, should I stop helping the poor so that I can give 10% to a church in a wealthy nation?

The psalmist noted that, "in my haste, I said that all men are liars." Solomon said He only found one man in a thousand who was trustworthy. Actually, anyone who exhorts you to tithe to them is probably lying. But I encourage you to give at tithing levels to anyone who has covenanted with you to watch over your soul as one who must give an account. (Hebrews 13:17). Whose prayers for you, covering many issues, are regularly answered.

 

[pointman7a]

I go to a church that strongly believes in the tithe. If you don't tithe your under a curse and robbing God. I don't believe this but still give my 10% anyway to keep the peace. Romans 14:1 "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters." I Cor 9:22 "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some."
But is so hard to sit there sometimes when we get a guest speaker that really pushes the issue. I love my church anyway.

 

[Pharmacist 4 Christ]

We can be stingy tithers too. Giving our tenth...and patting our proverbial backs.

I put it this way: Tithing is a great place for Christian giving to BEGIN. If you're not there...strive to get there. If you are there...strive to go further.

 

[GaryArnold]

NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.

Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18: The First Tithe - a tenth of crops and animals and commanded to take the tithe to the Levites.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27: The Second Tithe aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29: The Third Tithe aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.

Now, tell me. Which of the above three tithes commanded by God does anyone follow today?

The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it. No one else tithed. Wage earners did not tithe. Jesus didn’t tithe. Paul didn’t tithe. Peter didn’t tithe.

HOW CAN YOU COMPARE THAT WITH CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE TO PAY THEIR MORTGAGE PAYMENT OR RENT, INCOME TAXES, PROPERTY TAXES, SALES TAXES, ETC?

There is no way to justify making some “principle” out of the Biblical facts and then apply it to Christians today. It is just flat out wrong and makes no sense at all.

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God. After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God. Then he self-appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe or his gifts. God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if your pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Lucky for those of you who think you tithe, you are merely giving a tenth of your income to your church. You aren't paying the Biblical tithe or you would be disobeying God's command to take His tithe to the Levites. But then, if in your heart you are paying the Biblical tithe, wouldn’t that be sinning by breaking God's commands?

 

[fffaux]

yeah it seems odd that a church would REQUIRE tithe, like all other aspects of faith, it should be something you WANT to do, because you believe.

 

[groktruth]

I asked God what He wanted us to understand today about the message of Galations. He said that the modern day Galations were those who said that the bible is the word of God. He said that His Son, Yeshua, the one that many call Jesus, is the word of God. He is the tree of life. The bible is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It grows in the center of our life, and it ought to be tended and cared for. But not eaten from. Not used for doctrine. Not the word of God, though it contains many words from God in times past. He said that modern day Galations may know themselves by the relative frequency of their saying, "The bible says..." versus their saying, "God is saying....". Those who say, "The bible says..." have wandered from fellowship with God back to living by some set of written rules.

I remind all that we all can prophesy, we all prophesy in part, all prophesy is subject to judgment by other prophesy. So, who has what is needed to add to this, and who has a prophetic judgement of this?

 

[Goinheix]

I asked God what He wanted us to understand today about the message of Galations. He said that the modern day Galations were those who said that the bible is the word of God. He said that His Son, Yeshua, the one that many call Jesus, is the word of God. He is the tree of life. The bible is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It grows in the center of our life, and it ought to be tended and cared for. But not eaten from. Not used for doctrine. Not the word of God, though it contains many words from God in times past. He said that modern day Galations may know themselves by the relative frequency of their saying, "The bible says..." versus their saying, "God is saying....". Those who say, "The bible says..." have wandered from fellowship with God back to living by some set of written rules.

I remind all that we all can prophesy, we all prophesy in part, all prophesy is subject to judgment by other prophesy. So, who has what is needed to add to this, and who has a prophetic judgement of this?

today I eard God telling me that the Bible is the word of God that in it we have all the true revelation and that those denyimg that are sons of evil confusing His real sons (those doing His word the Bible)
that is a direct revelation from God to me con cerning all christians of the globe.

As you can see, "God is saying.." is an excuse for all kind of deviations and crazy doctrines. If "the Bible says..." does not count, any of us can pretend - as I just did - to have a direct revelation of God.

But the botton line is IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VERSE THAT TEACH A CHRISTIAN TO TITHE. Everything else is human talking. Also, in the entire Bible there is not a single verse teching christians to sacrifise cats and dog to God. ¿Why nobody is creating such a doctrine? ¿Why nobady teach to kill cats and dogs as christian doctrine? The same question is ¿why creating a tithe doctrine out of nothing?

The answer is that killing cats and dog will afect christian churches very badly; but insted, christians churches need very badly to get more and more money.

 

[Goinheix]

yeah it seems odd that a church would REQUIRE tithe, like all other aspects of faith, it should be something you WANT to do, because you believe.

Nobody has ever lern to tithe by reading the Bible. Nobody has ever fill to tithe bt his own. Tithing is allways something that somebody teach to the next generation. And those teaching to tithe have an huge problem trying to found a verse they can distort so much that will apears that says we have to tithe. But all pastors and christian teachers confront that problem every time come to teach tithe.

At the other hand there is 4 kind of tithing christians:
1 Christians that do not want to get involved in duties as evangelism or any one. Those christians found more easy to give money, to tithe. By tothing they fill free from further involviment.
2 Christian really involved in the gospel, fully and deeply concern with evangelism and every thing. Those christians wrongly beleve that it is necesary money. They honestly believe that need money to buy something in need, to support the misionaries, to many things. That is whay they want all of us tithing. They do not understand that Is Gos and His Spirit doing things, not the money.
3 Christians that understand the church as a job or as a busynes. Pastors that do things because are pay for. And need money in orther to get payd. Or worst. They see the chance to get plenty money and get rich.
4 Christians that are insecure, and need some security as Malaquias. "If I tithe, God will care for all my needs, but if I dont tothe, God will make me very poor"

 

[Frogster]

Tithing was as far as their righteousness went, according to Jesus. Ours must go further, if we want to enter the kingdom. Now, our righteousness is perfected through faith that He became sin with our sin, that we might be righteous with His righteousness. He speaks that to us, we hear it, we confess or repeat what we heard, and faith comes through which we are saved. If we have not tithed, or given even more generously, and are convicted, we might confess this as sin, be forgiven, and set on the path to be transformed into a cheerful giver. We are of course saved the moment we confess the sin, whatever the conviction.

Take time in your prayer closet to "make sure of your calling and election." This is the strongest exhortation in all of scripture. ("with even more than all diligence") Seek to be convicted of whatever He may want you to repent of. My counsel here is only that: counsel. Something for you to ask Him about. Something you might try, if you cannot honestly report that you know His voice.

Why is it a sin, to not ttihe, when for it to be a transgression, there must be law law saying we have to, as per Rom 4;15, and 5;13.

Not only that, but of people do not have it, are they sinning, if they do not have it?

12 For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.

And why is tithe, almost always to pastor, and his building, rather than the poor?

Paul worked not to be a burden, yet, pastors demand money from old couples on a fixed income. Is that right to do?

 

[Frogster]

yeah it seems odd that a church would REQUIRE tithe, like all other aspects of faith, it should be something you WANT to do, because you believe.

yea, and Paul did not go around demanding either..

8 I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine

 

[Timothew]

We can be stingy tithers too. Giving our tenth...and patting our proverbial backs.

I put it this way: Tithing is a great place for Christian giving to BEGIN. If you're not there...strive to get there. If you are there...strive to go further.

Paul said, if I give up all of my possessions, but I don't have love. . .

The percentage doesn't matter, strive for this percent or more, that doesn't matter. How about striving to love one another?

John Fogarty said, when we ask them how much should we give, the only answer is more more more. Greed has 2 daughters, More and More.

It is enough.

 

[Goinheix]

John Fogarty said, when we ask them how much should we give, the only answer is more more more. Greed has 2 daughters, More and More.

It is enough.

Jesus Christ teached that the right answer to "how much we should give", is nothing, nothing at all. Christians have no obligation to give a coin.

 

[fffaux]

oh come on, churches, missionaries and christian radio stations (among other things) need money to do their work, we should support them. the early church gave all they had and it was shared amongst the community. if you think the organization is doing well, you should support them. i dont need to find it in the bible, its common sence, God may be doing the actions, but hes doing it through us, and we need money to work. you're doing no good by refusing to support them.