Three Questions about God's Law

[Canuckster]

If it is not an exhaustive list, then you shouldn't treat it as one by using it to limit with laws Gentiles should follow.

The Holy Spirit is saying gentiles are not required to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses. That doesn't limit Gentiles from doing anything good.

 

[BobRyan]

I can argue in the opposite way:

If you think you can kill witches, homosexuals, animals, adulterers... then you will actually sin heavily, from our current perspective. But its all the part of the Mosaic Law.

You seem to "imply" that the civil laws under the theocracy of Israel is a case of God commanding His people to sin as often as possible.
Seriously?

Or are you trying to equate the first commandments in Ex 20 which have no penalty listed in the unit of ten - with civil laws under a theocracy such that if you are not supposed to execute witches - then it is also ok to take God's name in vain?

 

[BobRyan]

The Holy Spirit is saying gentiles are not required to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses. That doesn't limit Gentiles from doing anything good.

Matt 19 and Mark 7:7-13 are two great examples of Jesus calling His followers to obey the commands of Moses in places like Exodus 20, Lev 19:18, etc -- which of them do you claim gentiles are supposed to violate??

 

[Soyeong]

The Holy Spirit is saying gentiles are not required to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses. That doesn't limit Gentiles from doing anything good.

The Law of Moses is God's instructions to equip us to do every good work, or in other words, there are no good works that are not in accordance with the Law of Moses, so a ruling that Gentles shouldn't keep the Law of Moses would be limiting Gentiles from doing anything good, but that is not what they claimed that the Holy Spirit was saying. The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of Moses (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and does not have the role of leading us away from obeying God, so if they had claimed that that was what the Holy Spirit was saying, then that means that you should question the authenticity of their claim, but that is not what they claimed. Christ spent his ministry teaching His followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so if what you said were correct, then that would mean that they were ruling that Gentiles shouldn't be followers of Christ, so you shouldn't need my help to recognize how absurd your interpretation is.

 

[Canuckster]

so a ruling that Gentles shouldn't keep the Law of Moses would be limiting Gentiles from doing anything good, but that is not what they claimed that the Holy Spirit was saying.

The Holy Spirit claimed through the decree that Gentiles do not have to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses to please God. Not getting circumcised and keeping the law of Moses does not limit Gentiles from doing anything good and pleasing to God. The Holy Spirit is not saying Gentiles can keep the law of Moses without needing to be circumcised. Getting circumcised is necessary to keep the law of Moses.

 

[Gary K]

The Holy Spirit claimed through the decree that Gentiles do not have to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses to please God. Not getting circumcised and keeping the law of Moses does not limit Gentiles from doing anything good and pleasing to God. The Holy Spirit is not saying Gentiles can keep the law of Moses without needing to be circumcised. Getting circumcised is necessary to keep the law of Moses.

Yes. The Mosaic law. We Gentiles must still keep the law of God.

 

[Cribstyl]

The Holy Spirit is saying gentiles are not required to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses. That doesn't limit Gentiles from doing anything good.

What you're saying is the truth as written in the bible. They will ignore the facts as written in scripture and accuse you of teaching that sinning and lawbreaking is ok.
They won't address your facts:
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 ¶And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 ¶ Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.


As you pointed out; circumcision and keeping the law are the issues the council are gathered to considering.
Paul said that God chose his mouth, for the Gentiles to hear the gospel and to believe it.
What did the council conclude?
Act 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Those who trying to put you under the law, are not sent by God.

 

[Cribstyl]

Act 15:28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Act 15:30¶So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

The epistle to Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Thessalonians and others, contains all the doctrines of Christianity. The law (and the Sabbath) was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the blood of Jesus nailed it to the cross.

 

[Soyeong]

The Holy Spirit claimed through the decree that Gentiles do not have to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses to please God. Not getting circumcised and keeping the law of Moses does not limit Gentiles from doing anything good and pleasing to God. The Holy Spirit is not saying Gentiles can keep the law of Moses without needing to be circumcised. Getting circumcised is necessary to keep the law of Moses.

If you interpret a verse as promoting rebellion against God, then I see three options:

1.) You can think it is absurd to interpret servants of God as promoting rebellion against God and conclude therefore your interpretation must be wrong.

2.) You can think that your interpretation must be correct and conclude therefore you should reject the truth of the verse.

3.) Think that it makes perfect sense to interpret servants of God as promoting rebellion against Him and conclude that it is therefore a good idea for you to promote rebellion against God.

Option 3 is absurd and 2 is not acceptable for those who believe in the truth of the Bible, but the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man and we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, so 2 is still a better option than 3, though 1 is by far the best option. In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His children to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him even if they perform signs and wonders is if they teach against obeying His law, so God did not leave His children any room to pick 3, which means that if you are going to continue to believe in the truth of the Bible, then you should conclude that your interpretation of Acts 15 must be wrong.

 

[Cribstyl]

Yes. The Mosaic law. We Gentiles must still keep the law of God.

The Mosaic law is the so-called law of God. It was a covenant design by God to judge those who break its commandments.

 

[Canuckster]

If you interpret a verse as promoting rebellion against God, then I see three options:

1.) You can think it is absurd to interpret servants of God as promoting rebellion against God and conclude therefore your interpretation must be wrong.

2 You can think that your interpretation must be correct and conclude therefore you should reject the truth of the verse.

3 Think that it makes perfect sense to interpret servants of God as promoting rebellion against Him and conclude that it is therefore a good idea for you to promote rebellion against God.

The servants of God were directed by the Holy Spirit to tell the Gentiles by decree that it was not necessary for them to get circumcised and to keep the law of Moses. For them to do otherwise, ignore the Holy Spirit and tell the Gentiles they didn't have to get circumcised but they could keep the law of Moses, would not only be in rebellion against the Holy Spirit but violating the law of Moses.

 

[Canuckster]

What you're saying is the truth as written in the bible. They will ignore the facts as written in scripture and accuse you of teaching that sinning and lawbreaking is ok.
They won't address your facts:
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 ¶And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 ¶ Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.


As you pointed out; circumcision and keeping the law are the issues the council are gathered to considering.
Paul said that God chose his mouth, for the Gentiles to hear the gospel and to believe it.
What did the council conclude?
Act 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Those who trying to put you under the law, are not sent by God.

More specifically: They're trying to put Gentiles under the law of Moses without being circumcised which is in violation of the decree and in violation of the law of Moses. They can't even properly teach the law of Moses which they claim to obey.

 

[Gary K]

The Mosaic law is the so-called law of God. It was a covenant design by God to judge those who break its commandments.

Hardly.

God wrote the 10 commandments with His own finger.

 

[Cribstyl]

More specifically: They're trying to put Gentiles under the law of Moses without being circumcised which is in violation of the decree and in violation of the law of Moses. They can't even properly teach the law of Moses which they claim to obey.

Yes, Paul wrote that circumcision is a pledge to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:2
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


When accused by Pharisees about breaking the Sabbath Jesus made it clear that circumcision was observed on Sabbath if it fell on Sabbath, because it was passed down from Abraham and commanded by Moses.
This fact proves that Sabbath came after circumcision and was not creation instituted to Adam.

 

[Cribstyl]

Hardly.

God wrote the 10 commandments with His own finger.

So what? Jesus came in the flesh and gave His commandments that you falsely claim is the same ten. SDA also argue that Adam had the ten, So the voice from the burning bush was a replay from Adam????

 

[Gary K]

So what? Jesus came in the flesh and gave His commandments that you falsely claim is the same ten. For whom? SDA also argue that Adam had the ten, So the voice from the burning bush was a replay from Adam????

So you know your claim isn't true?

Just which of the first four commandments isn't fulfilled by loving God with all your heart, soul, and might and which of the last six isn't fulfilled your neighbor as your self?

 

[Cribstyl]

So you know your claim isn't true?

Just which of the first four commandments isn't fulfilled by loving God with all your heart, soul, and might and which of the last six isn't fulfilled your neighbor as your self?

Where does the writing with His finger say to love? So, If Jesus gave 2 commandments to love. It's seemingly clear that the 10 would be fulfilled by them (not the other way around). SDA substitute scriptures of the words "keep my commandments" with the commandments of Jesus Christ. Am I lying about that?
The law which includes the sign of the Sabbath was given exclusively to The Children of Israel as a covenant. True or False? SDA adds to those facts. They claim that Sabbath and the law was given to Adam and for the world. Am I lying about that?
God promised a New Covenant unlike the one given at Sinai. True or False? SDA claims that the same covenant is now written on the heart. Am I lying about that?

 

[Cribstyl]

Yes. The Mosaic law. We Gentiles must still keep the law of God.

What part of we're not under the law don't you understand? These are not my words this is Christian doctrine. I'm not saying we're free to sin, so don't put words in my mouth.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[Gary K]

Where does the writing with His finger say to love? So, If Jesus gave 2 commandments to love. It's seemingly clear that the 10 would be fulfilled by them (not the other way around). SDA substitute scriptures of the words "keep my commandments" with the commandments of Jesus Christ. Am I lying about that?
The law which includes the sign of the Sabbath was given exclusively to The Children of Israel as a covenant. True or False? SDA adds to those facts. They claim that Sabbath and the law was given to Adam and for the world. Am I lying about that?
God promised a New Covenant unlike the one given at Sinai. True or False? SDA claims that the same covenant is now written on the heart. Am I lying about that?

Witing with His finger differentiates the 10 commandments from the rest of the instructions He gave Moses about the instructions about sacrifices, law of inheritance, etc....

The Bible claims the 10 commandments are written in the heart. The promise was given centuries before Jesus' birth yo Jeremiah, a Jew.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So who was the NC given to? Not to the Gentiles.

 

[BobRyan]

So what? Jesus came in the flesh and gave His commandments that you falsely claim is the same ten.

That pretty much all of Christianity claims includes the TEN

Deut 5:22 He spoke the TEN "and added NO more" -- so they are "included"
Jer 31:31-34 - NEW Covenant writes that LAW of God on the heart.
Eph 6:2 only in that unit of TEN do we find that "Honor your father and mother is the first commandment WITH a promise"

SDA also argue that Adam had the ten,

As did D.L. Moody make the same point.
As does the Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 make the same point.
As did Dies Domini make the same point.

As does Paul affirm the TEN for Christians in Eph 6:2..