This maybe disprove god but what do you think of it?

Speedwell said:

Like what? A one-time event like that which left no physical evidence behind that we could possibly discover? Science could reach no conclusions about it at all.

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I changed my response...you are correct,there is no evidence that the resurrection did not happen.

Tone said:

I changed my response...you are correct,there is no evidence that the resurrection did not happen.

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If we found the body of Jesus Christ, and we were somehow able to prove that it was in fact His body, that would be pretty strong evidence against the Resurrection. But obviously no one has ever found such evidence.

Compared to a literal global flood, we have the equivalent of a 'body' in the geological record, showing that it didn't happen.

Tone said:

Entropy...for one.

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Increasing entropy is what generates the arrow of time and drives the development of complexity like stars, planets, black holes, and life itself.

Low entropy is a fundamental characteristic of the big bang state - you seem to be suggesting that God made an unintended fundamental mistake in creating the universe

Strathos said:

If we found the body of Jesus Christ, and we were somehow able to prove that it was in fact His body, that would be pretty strong evidence against the Resurrection. But obviously no one has ever found such evidence.

Compared to a literal global flood, we have the equivalent of a 'body' in the geological record, showing that it didn't happen.

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"We"...who?

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

Increasing entropy is what generates the arrow of time and drives the development of complexity like stars, planets, black holes, and life itself.

Low entropy is a fundamental characteristic of the big bang state - you seem to be suggesting that God made an unintended fundamental mistake in creating the universe

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I don't subscribe to the "big bang state"...I subscribe to the Genesis 1 state...

Tone said:

"We"...who?

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Humans.

Strathos said:

Humans.

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Fallen man has got together and come up with some grand method to analyze a creation subject to corruption and decay...and...what do you know...it doesn't jive with the Word of the Lord...you know...the one that abides forever? Should I be shocked?

*Humans are doing it...that settles it...

**Probably not...

***Can we clean a room...with a dirty broom?

Tone said:

Fallen man has got together and come up with some grand method to analyze a creation subject to corruption and decay...and...what do you know...it doesn't jive with the Word of the Lord...you know...the one that abides forever? Should I be shocked?

*Humans are doing it...that settles it...

**Probably not...

***Can we clean a room...with a dirty broom?

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Unless you think the fall includes adding billions of years of false history that never actually happened, that position is incoherent. It's not just the absence of evidence for A, it's the abundance of evidence that so many different things happened that are not compatible with A.

Tone said:

I don't subscribe to the "big bang state"...I subscribe to the Genesis 1 state...

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Nevertheless, the principle of my argument remains - entropy was lower in the past, whatever your origin theory, and this is what generates the arrow of time and drives the development of complexity like stars, planets, black holes, and life itself.

If God didn't intend entropy, why did He build it into the Genesis 1 state as a fundamental feature - without which we'd have no arrow of time, and the processes that sustain life itself would not work?

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

drives the development of complexity like stars, planets, black holes, and life itself

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Drives it where...into death?

Strathos said:

Unless you think the fall includes adding billions of years of false history that never actually happened, that position is incoherent. It's not just the absence of evidence for A, it's the abundance of evidence that so many different things happened that are not compatible with A.

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All things...have not been equal.

Tone said:

Drives it where...into death?

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Towards the eschaton.

Tone said:

Drives it where...into death?

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The semantics of 'drive' in this context are simple enough; it just means that complexity won't happen without increasing entropy.

In cosmological terms, while the rate of increase of entropy is rapid, complexity increases; as the rate of increase of entropy slows, complexity reduces, until maximum entropy is reached and thermodynamic equilibrium of uniform energy distribution.

Life, in general, requires a relatively high rate of entropy increase to grow, and when the rate of increase of entropy slows, it will be unable to grow or maintain itself.

As for the individual deaths of creatures, it simply turns out to be more efficient to keep producing new creatures than to maintain old creatures indefinitely. The entropic processes that make individual life possible also contribute to its demise - if you like, entropy is the alpha and the omega of life.

Tone said:

Drives it where...into death?

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"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there." --Lawrence P. Berra

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

complexity won't happen without increasing entropy.

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I don't know about this...I would think that complexity comes with order.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

high rate of entropy increase to grow, and when the rate of increase of entropy slows, it will be unable to grow or maintain itself

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What was this called before the idea of "entropy" arose?

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

maintain old creatures indefinitely

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Would there even be age without entropy?

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

entropy is the alpha and the omega of life

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Sounds poetic...but, also, it sounds like all this sciencey speak is the dogmatization of what some genius has imagined...

In other words...it's just a bunch of words...


*Not that words aren't powerful...

Speedwell said:

Towards the eschaton.

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And then you know what happens...right...?

1 Corinthians 15

"26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "

"53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

Revelation 20:14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Speedwell said:

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there." --Lawrence P. Berra

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...cryptic...quite cryptic...

Lawrence ? I thought his real name was Yogi . Well you learn something new every day

Tone said:

I don't know about this...I would think that complexity comes with order.

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That's a reasonable approximation in this context. What happens when complex systems emerge is that they reduce entropy locally at the expense of increasing entropy much more elsewhere (outside those systems). This is why the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics talks about entropy never decreasing in closed systems; but it can decrease in open systems, where there is an external source of low entropy providing a gradient down which the system can export its entropy.

You could also think of it in terms of energy - when energy is evenly distributed, entropy is high. When energy is unevenly distributed in 'clumps' (e.g. like stars) entropy is lower. Systems can generate complexity and order by dissipating the available energy.

The best analogy I can think of is the flow of water when a dam is opened. The initial rush of water is far too energetic for order or structured complexity, but as the turbulence reduces and the flow becomes smoother, you can start to find eddies and vortices - relatively complex, ordered structures that persist for some time. While they tend to be carried along in the general flow, their rotation means that some parts of the eddy structure are moving counter to the main flow, the equivalent of a local reduction of entropy, at the expense of a greater reduction in the overall energy of the water flow than would otherwise occur; i.e. vortices and eddies are dissipative structures. When the flow reduces below a threshold velocity, the vortices and eddies will themselves dissipate, and when the flow stops altogether, all disturbances will die away.

Life, planets, stars, and galaxies are complex, relatively ordered, dissipative structures. The stars and galaxies formed as concentrations of low entropy/high energy in the early universe, and now they're 'unwinding', distributing their energy and acting as sources of low entropy for secondary and tertiary systems, such as living things, to generate their own complexity and order from. Complex systems self-assemble as dissipative structures when suitable materials are available and in suitable energy/entropy gradients.

What was this called before the idea of "entropy" arose?

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What, thermodynamics? or do you mean what happens to living things, i.e. aging, senescence, & death?

Entropy is an explanatory concept of statistical mechanics - it explains why there is an arrow of time even though the underlying fundamental physical particle interactions are time-symmetric and 100% reversible. It's an emergent effect of probability at work.

Would there even be age without entropy?

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That's not really a coherent question; entropy is a descriptive property of collections of particles, of stuff. Entropy increases simply because there are many more ways for a system to be disordered than ordered, so if it starts out with some level of order, any random change is likely to make it less ordered.

Sounds poetic...but, also, it sounds like all this sciencey speak is the dogmatization of what some genius has imagined...

In other words...it's just a bunch of words...

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Sure; the idea was to contrast a familiar poetic description when backed by the solid mathematics of statistical mechanics, with the same words as usually backed by supernatural handwaving

Brightmoon said:

Lawrence ? I thought his real name was Yogi . Well you learn something new every day

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Lawrence Peter. Yogi is just a nickname.